When I was a young man with a 1911 I was browsing the tables at a gun show (Back when we just carried our guns into the show stuck in our belt and no one checked us at the door), when a fellow behind a table asked to see it. He showed me the pre-travel (Yea, I know) and asked me if I would like him to "fix" it where there was no pretravel. Me being the dumb fellow I was said sure. He took it apart and bent the back of the trigger bow backwards and put it back together. Sure enough, no pre travel. Cool, right? Nope, it did not take me long to figure out that the half cock had been taken out of the equation, and not much longer still to figure out why, and why the pre travel was there. I took it apart and fixed the trigger bow. Problem solved and lesson learned.
1911: What can go wrong mechanically... continued
- Thread starter 777funk
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1911Tuner
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You can actually leave the sear and disconnect out of the pistol...thumb the hammer all the way back and let it slip at full speed...and the safety detent will stop the hammer?
And you can still thumb the safety off to the fire position without tearing the plunger tube loose from its moorings?
Sorry. I'd have to see it.
I think it would have to do with how big the cam on the thumb safety ended up being (out of tolerance lets say).. and how tight the pin is in the pivot hole.
I did a similar test when fitting my last thumb safety, sear OUT, plunger spring OUT.. While it did not stop the hammer from falling it did significantly slow it down. Slow it down enough to cause the firing pin to not contact the primer? I think so, but didn't test that. If I knurled the pivot pin a little.. left the interface between the cam and the frame a tad close, I can see the hammer being stopped. (and still being able to click the safety on and off with mild effort)..
YES, a tight fitting thumb safety will get dropped by the hammer. It will absorb some of the energy of the hammer.. Not enough to rely on it as a safety.. but enough to rationalize what he said to be true. (in his case)
I tested it, as you had said the disintegrating sear thing before.. just to check the interference caused. I did adjust the thumb safety so it had less interference with the frame and rely more on the plunger spring cam action.
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Some 1911 type pistols (e.g., Star) actually make use of that as a safety. Instead of the safety blocking the sear as in the 1911, the safety cams the hammer back off the sear and blocks hammer movement. IMHO, that is actually a better system than the 1911, since it is a more solid block against a blow on a cocked hammer and if that happens will not ruin the hammer and sear as would happen in the 1911. Further, they use a pivoting trigger that eliminates the trigger "bounce" problem that can cause the hammer to fall when the slide is dropped.
Jim
Jim
1911Tuner
Moderator Emeritus
Yep. You can push the safety into the safe position on a Star PD, BM, or BKM and watch it cam the hammer a little past full cock and off the sear, positively blocking the hammer and protecting the sear should the gun be dropped...and it is a better system. If somebody really wants to effect a practical improvement to the 1911, this would be the one.
Joshua M. Smith
Member
Tuner (and everyone else, now that I've written more than I figured on!),
I didn't get a chance to try this again today as I was pressed for time. I wanted my STI grip safety back on instead of the Brown -- I love the Brown, want to love it as much as the STI, but those cutouts on the STI are just so damned comfortable!
Anyway, I was at the shop to make sights and barely had time to swap the grip safeties (both already fitted to the frame) while waiting to see how some stuff would take oil.
This might be important:
When I first fitted everything, I had a different spring setup in the pistol. It was either a 19lb or 21lb mainspring; I don't remember, lighter than usual, anyway, and an 18.5lb return spring.
Since then, I've gone back to a 23lb spring (found an actual GI part in cosmoline and love it!) and 16lb return spring, albeit variable rate on the latter. Just something with those variable rates that makes the return more pleasant for me; not sure just what.
But could be that the lighter spring had something to do with it.
Another thought is this:
Stole that photo from the net, for reference.
I use a Series 80 (or similar; Series 80 shelf) in my Series 70-type RIA frame. Now, I know this isn't the safest setup. It's something I chose to try and it works. The intercept shelf works well enough.
I'm replacing the hammer with a Wilson I have on order. Should be here this week.
I'll compare the Wilson with the unknown-make Series 80-style hammer.
Moving on, and at least when the slide is off, the relief for the safety stud is in such a position that if the sear slips the hammer hooks and the safety is on, the hammer will lock to the safety on rotation and will have to be pulled back before the safety can be put back down.
Will it do this with the slide on? I don't remember from when I fit the safety. I believe it did, but now you've got me questioning.
As well, I'll compare the diameter of this current hammer to the Wilson arriving in the mail. Will test this idea later this week if I can find time.
Moving on...
Couple ideas:
1. Engine assembly lube for slide and barrel lube. If you think about it, each time you fire the 1911 it's a "dry start." Moly and zinc is what's in the Lucas stuff I'm using. It has a watery rubber cement consistency (as you probably know, Tuner; some folks never saw the stuff, I gather, though everyone should have the experience of building a Chevy small block!)
2. I'm not trusting the price of S&W's 1911 hammer, here:
http://www.midwayusa.com/product/532745/smith-and-wesson-hammer-1911-blue
It has to be MIM, but so is the Wilson I ordered (the Value Line) as I want to test a few theories I have on MIM. I don't like it for the most part.
One thing that grabbed my attention, though, was the center hook on the half-cock. That makes all sorts of sense to me as it will contact a part of the sear not contacted by the full-cock hooks. I like that design.
Do you know of anyone who makes a non-MIM version with that center half-cock hook?
Lots of ideas running around in my head. Dammit.
Regards,
Josh
I didn't get a chance to try this again today as I was pressed for time. I wanted my STI grip safety back on instead of the Brown -- I love the Brown, want to love it as much as the STI, but those cutouts on the STI are just so damned comfortable!
Anyway, I was at the shop to make sights and barely had time to swap the grip safeties (both already fitted to the frame) while waiting to see how some stuff would take oil.
This might be important:
When I first fitted everything, I had a different spring setup in the pistol. It was either a 19lb or 21lb mainspring; I don't remember, lighter than usual, anyway, and an 18.5lb return spring.
Since then, I've gone back to a 23lb spring (found an actual GI part in cosmoline and love it!) and 16lb return spring, albeit variable rate on the latter. Just something with those variable rates that makes the return more pleasant for me; not sure just what.
But could be that the lighter spring had something to do with it.
Another thought is this:
Stole that photo from the net, for reference.
I use a Series 80 (or similar; Series 80 shelf) in my Series 70-type RIA frame. Now, I know this isn't the safest setup. It's something I chose to try and it works. The intercept shelf works well enough.
I'm replacing the hammer with a Wilson I have on order. Should be here this week.
I'll compare the Wilson with the unknown-make Series 80-style hammer.
Moving on, and at least when the slide is off, the relief for the safety stud is in such a position that if the sear slips the hammer hooks and the safety is on, the hammer will lock to the safety on rotation and will have to be pulled back before the safety can be put back down.
Will it do this with the slide on? I don't remember from when I fit the safety. I believe it did, but now you've got me questioning.
As well, I'll compare the diameter of this current hammer to the Wilson arriving in the mail. Will test this idea later this week if I can find time.
Moving on...
Couple ideas:
1. Engine assembly lube for slide and barrel lube. If you think about it, each time you fire the 1911 it's a "dry start." Moly and zinc is what's in the Lucas stuff I'm using. It has a watery rubber cement consistency (as you probably know, Tuner; some folks never saw the stuff, I gather, though everyone should have the experience of building a Chevy small block!)
2. I'm not trusting the price of S&W's 1911 hammer, here:
http://www.midwayusa.com/product/532745/smith-and-wesson-hammer-1911-blue
It has to be MIM, but so is the Wilson I ordered (the Value Line) as I want to test a few theories I have on MIM. I don't like it for the most part.
One thing that grabbed my attention, though, was the center hook on the half-cock. That makes all sorts of sense to me as it will contact a part of the sear not contacted by the full-cock hooks. I like that design.
Do you know of anyone who makes a non-MIM version with that center half-cock hook?
Lots of ideas running around in my head. Dammit.
Regards,
Josh
Joshua M. Smith
Member
I was wrong, guys. At least it was Tuner I was wrong to!
The particular safety I have will indeed hold the hammer if the sear is not in play, but the important part is that it barely holds it.
The curious thing is that there is no reason the hammer shouldn't be retained by the safety if on lil' notch is made in part of the hammer.
When my new hammer arrives, I'll have this old one to play with. I will cut this notch and see if I can't get it working.
The goal will be to capture the safety well enough that it will not turn off if the sear should break, and lock the two (hammer and safety) together under mainspring pressure.
Should be an interesting project. I hope I have time this week. Sight orders have not slacked, and that's my primary concern.
Josh
The particular safety I have will indeed hold the hammer if the sear is not in play, but the important part is that it barely holds it.
The curious thing is that there is no reason the hammer shouldn't be retained by the safety if on lil' notch is made in part of the hammer.
When my new hammer arrives, I'll have this old one to play with. I will cut this notch and see if I can't get it working.
The goal will be to capture the safety well enough that it will not turn off if the sear should break, and lock the two (hammer and safety) together under mainspring pressure.
Should be an interesting project. I hope I have time this week. Sight orders have not slacked, and that's my primary concern.
Josh
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