1911A1 questions

[cowboybobb693]

A friend of mine brought me a 1911A1 pistol that his father has had for many years. Marked US Property M1911A1 US ARMY. Park is about 95+ %. I cannot seem to locate any information as to if this is a "correct" finish S/N is 9350XX.
Other markings are as follows, under he slide release has GHD,next to mag release has a "P" under the US PROPERTY and serial number there looks to be a crown(ala queen of England crown)with the letters BNP.
Has an arched MS housing with laynard,plastic grip panels,no markings on the barrel.
Thanks

 

[Jim Watson]

Blue Book says it is a Remington Rand of 1943 and that (Crown)BNP is a British proof mark that came into use in 1954.

Coolgunsite.com says the finish should be Du-Lite dull blue; Parkerizing apparently a refinish.

A WWII gun sent to England and proofed there, resold here later? Hmm.

Try the REAL experts on the USGI section of 1911forum.com

 

[cowboybobb693]

Thanks Jim.
What is Du-lite ??? is it a dull polished bluing??
This thing is in great shape, my buddy was just curious about its value and if it should become a safe queen or if he should just go ahead and shoot it.

 

[Old Fuff]

Try the REAL experts on the USGI section of 1911forum.com

Gosh, I'm nowhere near as expert as those REAL guys over at the other forum, but anyway.

On December 7, 1942 (one year to the day after Pearl Harbor) the Ordnance Department standardized Du-Lite bluing over a sandblasted surface as the standard finish on the main components of guns being made at contractors, Remington Rand, Ithaca, and US&S. Colt was Parkerizing their pistols at the time.

Du-Lite was a commercial black oxide finish (read that to mean "blued) and the company is still in business and a major supplier of bluing equipment and supplies to the firearms industry. Parkerizing was a commercial Type II phosphate coating made by the Parker Chemical Co.

On October 29, 1942 Uncle Sam's Army changed its mind, and decreeded that everyone using the Du-Lite finish had to change to Parkerizing as soon as the necessary equipment could be installed. In June, 1943 Remington-Rand sent their first sample of a Parkerized gun to Springfield Armory for envinromental testing and approval. They passed the tests, but didn't get into actual production of phosphated pistols until serial number 995,000 and some Du-Lite guns with serial numbers up to the 1,015,000 range are known as previously made and finished parts were used up.

When applied to a highy polished surface the Du-Lite process produced a deep blue-black finish, such as seen on Colt's later Python revolvers, but when applied over a sandblasted surface the color was more dark blue-gray, and could be mistaken for Parkerizing.

"GHD" stand for B. Gen. Guy H. Drewry, who was in charge of Government Inspection at Remington-Rand, as well as some other contractors from Jan. 1942 through Jul. 1945.

Did I do good???

 

[cowboybobb693]

Old Fuff you done GOOD!!! I pulled up coolguns and noticed some other markings. The weapon is marked Colt, it has a "P" stamped in the center of the slide,it also has some other ordanance markings that lead me to believe that it was one of the "lend/lease" weapons. The coating appears to be a parkerizing and the ramp does not have any finish on it,which the other site said was common since they machined the ramp after coating.
Do you happen to know the approx ballpark value of a weapon like this??
My buddy got it from his Dad who is about 80 nyears old and brought it home from WWII.
Thanks

 

[Old Fuff]

Well I'm still trying to keep up with them REAL experts....

Serial number 9350xx was originally assigned to Colt, but through a major mix-up the number was in a block that was also assigned to Remington-Rand. As a consequence it appears that the Army ended up with two pistols, one from Colt, and the other from Remington-Rand, with the same No. 9350xx serial number.

It would seem that serial No. 9350xx your friend has is the Colt, and it was part of a shipment made by Colt on May 28, 1943. 4000 pistols numbered between 934,000 to 943,000 went to "Transportation Officer, Springfield Armory." Thus a Colt slide is correct. And it should have a Parkerized finish. The "P" on top of the slide is a government proof mark, and should also be on the frame and barrel. Colt was also using one-piece triggers and wide-spur hammers at the time.

General Drewry inspected pistols at Colt's (not Remington-Rand as I first thought) numbers 848,170 through 2,360,470. Col. Frank J. Atwwod (FJA) was in charge at Remington-Rand during this time period.

Since the Army made a serious effort to find and either destroy or re-number those pistols with duplicate serial numbers, not a whole lot survived. I can't help you with value because it keeps going up. But if your friend's pistol is original and correct, I'd say the value is at least $2,000.00 and possibly higher to a serious collector.

Sorry about the original confusion, but I'm REALLY not up to those REAL experts on the other forum.

You might run this by them and see if anyone comes up for the bait...

 

[cowboybobb693]

Thanks Fuff. This thing has a lot of strange markings,under the GHD and above the mag realease, it has an arrowhead(?) broadarrow(?) inside of a "C"
Under the 1911A1 markings it has what appears to be a set of crossed crosses with the letters/numbers K-4-6.

 

[Jim Watson]

(Broad Arrow) - C is a Canadian proof mark.
Coolgunsite says that most 1911A1s supplied to Canada were transferred to England which explains the British proof.

Since Fuff is here, there is no need to refer to those other boards, maybe he can elaborate on the other unAmerican markings.

 

[cowboybobb693]

thanks jim. From what I have been reading these pistols are somewhat rare,especially in the condition this pistol is in. If I had a camera I'd take photos and post them

 

[Jim K]

You did good, Old Fuff, except that Drewry wasn't really a "government inspector." A colonel or brigadier general didn't sit around with a hammer stamping his initials into guns. He, like Atwood, Downie, Broberg, and the rest, was commander of the ordnance district in which the item was produced. As the person in overall charge of ordnance production (which, in WWII, included tanks, trucks, jeeps, and artillery pieces as well as small arms) his initials were put on every ordnance item approved by the inspectors in that district.

The markings can often provide a check on fakes. For example, a pistol with a Union Switch & Signal slide but a frame marked "FJA" is not kosher, since US&S guns were made in the Pittsburgh Ordnance District, where Robert C. Downie (RCD) was the commander. Frank J. Atwood was commander of the Rochester Ordnance District, so the frame is a Remington-Rand or Ithaca.

Jim

 

[jondar]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I seem to remember an ad in one of my old
American Rifleman magazines (probably an early 1960s one) offering the sale of surplus 1911A1 pistols chambered in the .455 auto pistol round. I believe in the description was the phrase English surplus. I have never seen one of those, even in Shotgun News, so they must be rare. They probably also would have had British proof markings.

 

[LHB1]

Quote: "On December 7, 1942 (one year to the day after Pearl Harbor) the Ordnance Department standardized Du-Lite bluing over a sandblasted surface as the standard finish on the main components of guns being made at contractors, Remington Rand, Ithaca, and US&S. Colt was Parkerizing their pistols at the time. .....

On October 29, 1942 Uncle Sam's Army changed its mind, and decreeded that everyone using the Du-Lite finish had to change to Parkerizing as soon as the necessary equipment could be installed."

Old Fuff,
That was good information but did you make a typo in those dates? Oct 29, 1942 was before Dec 7, 1942, not after.

Good shooting and be safe.
LB

 

[Old Fuff]

Old Fuff,
That was good information but did you make a typo in those dates? Oct 29, 1942 was before Dec 7, 1942, not after.

Of course I didn't make a typo.... My keyboard did...

Anyway, that first date should be May 7, 1942, and it didn't have anything too do with Pearl Harbor...

Bad keyboard..... bad....

 

[Old Fuff]

Jim Keenan:

Told ya' I wasn't as good as those "experts" on the other forum, but at least I started out right when I said:

"GHD" stand for B. Gen. Guy H. Drewry, who was in charge of Government Inspection at Remington-Rand, as well as some other contractors from Jan. 1942 through Jul. 1945.

But of course I put him in the wrong company...

 

[Old Fuff]

jondar:

The .455 pistols were 1911 models, sold to the British during World War One.

A substantial number of regular .45 1911A1 pistols were sent to the U.K. during World War Two as part of the Lend Lease Program. During the middle 1950's may of them were released as surplus, and after being given commercial proofs, were returned to commercial dealers in the United States. But it would seem that the pistol that is the subject of this thread ended up in Canada. Perhaps a look at Springfield Armory's records might shed some light on what happened.

 

[cowboybobb693]

ALL of you guys are great. I'm going to keep researching this weapon,but for now I believe that I'll tell my buddy that he should "safe queen" it and pass it on to his son. He wanted to have it "worked over" but I told him that this was not your everyday 1911A1 and to hold off doing ANYTHING to it until I found out what type of historical value it may have. Do you guys think that it would be worth 1500.00-2000.00 ???