1911's - at what point do you expect breakages?

[Siderite]

I have a pair of 1911s - a Colt XSE Stainless 5" and a PT1911 5" - which have run flawlessly for me - until they broke.

The Colt broke first, after only two months (<500 rounds) when the manual safety snapped. It got sent back to have the part replaced, which Colt did promptly, and the replacement is thicker in the region that broke.

The Taurus broke after 14 months (~6000 rounds) when the slide stop snapped off on the inside. Which I have now replaced with an Ed Brwon Hardcore slide stop, even though I could send it back in, but I have concerns that the replacement would also be MIM.

At first I was reconsidering the 1911 platform entirely, but realized that in both cases, the breakage didn't actually prevent me from continuing to shoot. It seems that the failure modes weren't catastrophic, which seems to favor JMB's genius in the design.

So now the questions are:
1) Is this sort of breakage normal? I half-expected it on the Taurus, after reading about MIM parts, but I thought the Colt would be a tier above that, which is why it shocked me.
2) When (rough round counts) should I be thinking about replacing various parts?
3) Or does one need to go another tier up to get quality, lasting 1911s of the class that Old Fuff and 1911Tuner seem to be hoarding ?

 

[funnelcake]

Depends on the part, but most of 'em, way higher round counts than 500 & 6K if ever. Heck, especially a thumb safety --should NEVER break.

It is possible to make really good stuff using castings & likely MIM for many parts, the problem is the margin of error --there really isn't much of one. It's a lot easier to "avoid" pits, voids, etc. in both bar stock & forged parts.

Funnel

 

[rrflyer]

honestly I didn't figure either of these pieces should break.

Springs wear down but those two pieces really shouldn't fail....i dunno.

At 6,000 rounds though you gotta figure thats probably 5000 or more rounds than most pistols will ever see.

I've got about 4000 through my pt1911 and I haven't seen this happen yet. I'll keep my fingers crossed

 

[The Tourist]

I had an early Colt Officers ACP in stainless. Nice little gun, and I loved to to shoot it--a lot.

It made three trips out to Tussey for customization and repair. Finally Terry called me and recommended that the little guy had a good life and it might be time to retire it.

My records show that this pistol had 7,000 rounds through it.

 

[outerlimit]

Colts unfortunately have some MIM parts now too. I believe the safety is MIM. But they are easy to replace.

 

[Geno]

My STS Colt Series 70 reproduction has 10,000+ rounds and no broken parts, and no failures...yet.

 

[1911Tuner]

I've seen several of those safeties fail, and usually in the area shown in the picture. The issue is partly material, partly specs, and partly leverage.

The downward force on standard safeties is closer to the pin's axis, while the extended "bat wing" types place it farther away...increasing the mechanical advantage. When the safety is wiped off briskly...and the frame doesn't contact the safety correctly to stop the downward movement...the stress is on the pin and the surrounding area. Couple that to a material that's sometimes sub-standard...and it becomes a matter of when it will let go.

 

[Siderite]

Are there any ambi-safeties that don't have the extended levers? I haven't seen any at midway. Or would that be something I'd have to custom make by grinding down?

 

[Robert Hairless]

I've seen several of those safeties fail, and usually in the area shown in the picture.

Absolutely. I've had three or four break right there on Kimbers too. The rest of what you said reflects my own experience.

I've seen no correlation between the breakage and the number of rounds. One happened during the first magazine.

 

[jmorris]

Any machine has the ability to break. In a 1911 the slide stop, extended ejectors and extractors are the most common broken parts. If you put in the right parts they will run a long time without problems. My SVI (with Aftec extractor) has had just shy of 60,000 through it and the only thing I’ve had to replace is the red insert in the fiber optic front sight.

 

[Old Fuff]

3) Or does one need to go another tier up to get quality, lasting 1911s of the class that Old Fuff and 1911Tuner seem to be hoarding ?

Not sure about Tuner, but the Old Fuff isn't hording. However his small collection of 1911 style pistols are either older Colt's, made when they used "real steel" in all the parts, or ones that meet the same description that he assembled himself to be sure he knew what was in them.

Concerning safety locks. Occasionally you will find "take-offs" at gun shows or gunsmith's odd-stuff boxes, that were removed because the gun's owner wanted something that looked more... well... tactical. Those that were removed from older Colt's and USGI pistols are made from the real stuff, and sometimes can be purchased for a song. If lady luck should smile on you, do not hesitate.

The same can be said about extractors, magazine latches, sears, disconectors, ejectors and slide stops.

I occasionally see an older 1911 on the Internet auctions, usually finished worn, but sound - selling in the $600 to $800 range. One time there was one that was built up on an Essex frame (probably but not necessarily bad) that was otherwise entirely USGI parts. As I remember it went for around $400. Hopefully the buyer (he was the only bidder) got a decent frame and assembled an outstanding service pistol.

The fact that today's manufacturers are using questionable materials in some parts, and seem to lack any consistent inspection or quality control, should be well understood by those that follow this forum. Therefore I cannot understand why they are surprised when their recently purchased guns turn out to be less then expected.

The Old Fuff will now depart, and go see if he can do some hording. On second thought it seems like a great idea...

 

[Walkalong]

recommended that the little guy had a good life and it might be time to retire it.

My records show that this pistol had 7,000 rounds through it.

It should just be getting warmed up, or was that a typo?

 

[GaryK]

Fuff, funny you should mention 1911s built on Essex frames with GI parts. I bought a 1911 that was built on an alloy frame using GI parts a couple of years ago. I foolishly sold it. I don't remember the brand of the frame but believe that it came out of California. I made a few bucks on the deal but I sure wish that I still had the gun...

 

[Old Fuff]

Back during the Dark Ages of pre-history; one could buy surplus USGI parts for a song. At the time only a handful of aftermarket frames were available, and most if not all of them were of questionable quality. But anyway, a lot of folks purchased them and built up guns using surplus parts.

Today you occasionally see them for sale, and if the frame maker's name is mentioned it's a kiss of death. Yet only a few potential buyers seem to be bright enough to understand that the parts, less the frame, are worth more then the pistol's selling price.

And of course it is always possible that the gun will turn out to be fine. Not all of those aftermarket frames were bad.

If current day makers would incorporate some decent inspection and quality control, use good extractors that were correctly fitted, and include magazines that weren't total junk, a lot of functional problems would go away. But as long as buyers are more interested in the accessory rail on the dust cover, or surrations on front of the slide, basic quality isn't going to improve. :banghead:

 

[buzz_knox]

Like all machines, they'll break on the first round ever fired, on the last round ever fired, or somewhere in between.

 

[The Tourist]

It should just be getting warmed up, or was that a typo?

Unfortunately not.

That number of rounds was put through the little pistol over a very short time. Unlike my other pistols which get a steady diet of low-pressure practice rounds, this pistol was an EDC carry piece I used in my job capacity. It got full-pressure loads everytime I took it to the range. Not for every shot mind you, but more than any other gun I own.

I also believe that since it was an earlier rendition, it was not the same gun you might know. Perhaps Colt tweaked the design later in the run.

I switched over to a small stainless Detonics after that.

 

[1911Tuner]

Not sure about Tuner, but the Old Fuff isn't hoarding.

Oh, I am. Especially the thumb safeties and the one-piece triggers...both long and short...the wide-spur hammers....and the grip safeties.

The largely untapped source these days is the Argentines. They're showing up more and more and...just like with the glut of USGI pistols that hit the open market in the 60s...people are once again removing the good stuff and replacing it with the cool-lookin' stuff. History is repeating itself...and I'm a happy guy.

 

[Myles]

I've got a WWI issue 1911 (NOT 1911A1) made by Remington-Rand. It's still going strong.

I've had and traded more recent models.

Don't misunderstand me, I am a huge 1911 fan, and I will never give mine up.

Lately, I've come to realize how to check the design flaws/breakage probablities of a firearm. Check catalogs/internet websites/gunshops for how easy it is to find replacement parts, of all kinds. I see the 1911 and ARs, mostly. (I'm not counting gew-gaws and tacticool addons - we all know who has the most of those.)

I mean to say, that if you need to repair that often, or you feel the need to spend hundreds of dollars to "upgrade" your weapon, straight from the box, it might be a tell.

 

[1911Tuner]

I've got a WWI issue 1911 (NOT 1911A1) made by Remington-Rand.

Remington Rand didn't build pre-A1s.
What you've got is probably a Remington Rand slide on a 1911 frame...and probably a Colt frame. Provide the first 4 digits of the serial number, and we'll figure it out.

Or...If you're within driving distance, I'll look the gun over for ya. Your call.

 

[Old Fuff]

Dang nab it!!!!

I was talking pistols, not parts.

Don't you go stealing any parts that I'm out to steal... Way things are on this here Internet people is going to get wise to me...

 

[1911Tuner]

Don't concern yourself, Old fuff. I've got the market cornered east of the Mississippi...You've got it to the west.

If I take in many more old pistols, I'm gonna hafta buy another vault.

Just picked up an early, EARLY Combat Commander. Lotta carry wear and some light pitting on the slide...but mechanically in remarkable shape. Real steel small parts, too!
How ya like them apples?

 

[Old Fuff]

How ya like them apples?

:banghead: :banghead: :banghead:

 

[wally]

My oldest RIA is about 10000 rounds since its link broke at ~3000 rounds. If you've never broken a gun you just ain't been shooting enough!

Stuff breaks, fix it and move on. Glock parts are about as easy to find as 1911 parts. Other guns have far smaller volumes usually leaving the manufacturer or importer as your only source other than salvage operations like Sarco or Numrich.

Despite being the US military sidearm, I don't see many Beretta 92 parts on the tables at gun shows.

--wally.

 

[1911Tuner]

Okayyyyy, Fuff! In that case, I'd better not mention what I gave for it. There's be a mushroom cloud hangin' over southern Arizona by midnight eastern time.

 

[rcmodel]

Despite being the US military sidearm, I don't see many Beretta 92 parts on the tables at gun shows.

And you never will.
Bill Clinton signed an executive order banning the sale of any surplus small arms, parts, ammunition, or components.

Any surplus has to be destroyed now.

Even the CMP is selling Greek surplus ammo because Unkle Sugar won't allow sale of U.S. surplus anymore.

The only modern surplus stuff you will find now is stolen!

rcmodel