MIM parts breakage Infant Mortality or Random?

[fastbolt]

I've had to replace a number of broken forged, machined and investment cast steel parts ... but no MIM parts, yet. Gotta happen eventually.

Of course, I don't have to work on Kimbers, either. Sorry, couldn't resist.

I'll be happy if it doesn't exceed the other steel parts failures & breakage I've experienced.

Fabrication of parts ought to be suitable for the intended design and purpose.

It would be nice if the manufacturers all used the absolute best quality parts possible ... at least, those that we all thought were the best ... and as long as we were all willing to pay for it, or course ... but we all know that the ordinary purchaser often quibbles over a handful of dollars, and using slightly less expensive parts is one way to shave off those few dollars that might make or break a sale, right?

MIM and investment casting seems to work for many purposes. Forging seems to work better for others.

 

[chieftain]

Old Fluffy stated:

My reference to "pre 1970's and pre-1965 in particular" was intended to include all of the guns made by Colt and government contractors backwards to 1911, not just the half-decade between 1965 and 70, or between 1960 to 1970.

Actually, I think we are more in agreement than disagreement here.

I think the government contract and PRE WWII weapons are superior. Once again, post WWII I am not anywhere near impressed by Colt's quality as compared to pre War.

Post WWII the Military DID WANT to change handguns. In fact this move helped push the development of the Commander, Ltwt Commander and the 9mm versions.

Korea did away with that Idea, and Vietnam put it further on the back burner. By the mid 60's and Vietnam a lot of those contract 1911's were literally falling apart. After all they were 20-25 years old. Just like those Beretta's over in the sand box today.

Then the Debacle in the mid 80's. Not for this thread.

By the way, I was a bullseye shooter, shot some PPC matches too. Most of the target and competition shooters were in those days. They had to send their Colt GoldCups and Government models to a smith before it would shoot reliably and accurately.

Why? Unless you shot ball the odds of any 1911 being reliable was suspect. And accuracy from the factory wasn't anything to blow anyone's horn about. Most competitors in those days shot semi Wad cutters in pistols, or Wad cutters in revolvers, S&W model 52's and some Custom 1911's that were set up for wad cutters too.

I shot a S&W model 14 or if you prefer K38 6".

Colt quality went south after the war, and the 1911 design languished except for competition shooters.

During this time the European invasion took place, BROWNING/SIG, Glock, HK, Walther, Beretta, etc... took over. They truly raised the bar on reliability and accuracy. Colt continued their downward spiral.

Then in the early 90's an outfit called Kimber, started manufacturing RELIABLE, ACCURATE 1911's out of the box at reasonable prices. The rest they say is history. Colt had given any edge it had away.

I remember a Gunsmith stating that Kimber put a lot of Gunsmiths out of business. Now we have a raft of 1911 manufacturers. Turning out relatively reliable 1911's at reasonable prices.

We also have custom houses putting out those expensive beautiful, accurate and reliable weapons too.

I just found out that STI uses quite a few MIM parts too. Springfield in their up cabin TRP-PRO model, uses MIM parts and that seems to shock people.

MIM parts are in my car too, I trust them every minute I am behind the wheel.

I would worry much more about poorly made parts than the procedure that was used to make them. I like good quality parts, MIM does NOT automatically mean poor quality.

By the way, when my guns reach about 25,000 rounds, I will change out most of the small parts anyway. Both MIM and tool steel.

Go figure

Fred

 

[10-Ring]

I haven't experience or have witnessed a MIM failure...I'm sure it happens, but I just haven't seen it. My thing about MIM parts is just that over night it created an entire a/m w/ companies making steel replacement parts presumably better than OEM

 

[Old Fuff]

To start with Da' Fuff said...

When a gun part is designed to be made using MIM technology the designer usually takes into consideration the strengths and weaknesses of this manufacturing method and avoids the obvious weaknesses.

So properly designed parts in newer guns have seemed to work out. This is equally true in cars or other applications.

However...

The problem with MIM parts in the 1911 platform is that the parts in question are duplicates of those previously made from machined steel, and sometimes the configuration of the part does not ideally match the new technology used to make it. This in itself can be asking for trouble.

Duplicating a part intended to be made with other technogies and/or materials can cause problems. The most obvious example is internal extractors. MIM extractors cannot be spring tempered. Also if you review past threads on this forum it is clear that there are more instances of MIM part failure then similar "real steel" parts. Some of this may be caused by questionable quality control at the part's makers. With the possible exception of Kimber, (an exception I noted), STI(maybe when it comes to frames and slides) and Colt's, the domestic gun assemblers (they are not true manufacturers) do not make the parts that go into their guns. They buy the components, including frames, slides, and barrels from other sources.

As a side note: Before World War Two, Colt proudly advertised that every part in a Colt handgun was made in their factory, including pins, screws, stocks, springs, and minor parts. Thus they had complete control over the quality of their products. This is no longer true of any 1911 platform manufacturer.

So how much part breakage can one accept? It depends on what purposes a handgun will be used for. But in the case of a weapon I would not tolerate predictable failurers, no matter how remote they might be.

And in closing I would still stand by this statement:

I would point out that we see all kinds of posts concerning problems with recent and current 1911 production from various makers, but none - or next to none - about those made before the 1970's or mid-1960's in particular.

That includes parts breakage as well as performance and reliability.

Oh, during the late 50's and early-to-middle 60's I used a Hi-Standard Citation and Smith & Wesson K-38 Target Masterpiece along with a gunsmith enhanced .45 Gold Cup. Perhaps we passed in the night at Camp Perry.