1911s suck (not my article)

[Gunnerboy]

I would like to see that statement made in front of said Marines to get their honest responses... whatever they may be.

Oh boy where do we buy tickets to watch that mess unfold ????

 

[Crazy Carl]

The guys at the pointy end of the spear have a vested interest in coming back home. If they're confident that the 1911 will help make that happen who are any of us to disagree?

IF a 1911 is built to John Moses Browning's specs, it will run. Period. It's when they're improved upon that issues begin to arise. I'll let Tuner expound upon that, if he wishes, but ol' JMB knew what he was doing the first time around. 'N hey, if the 1911 were crap, dontcha think our fathers & grandfathers who faced the enemy with them, lo these many years ago, would've mentioned that fact?

If 1911s don't blow yer skirt up, fine. Move along, nothing to see here, etc., but don't badmouth that which you know nothing about or second guess those who run toward the sound of the guns.

 

[FMF Doc]

A major factor in the adoption of the 1911 pistol a hundred years ago was because it was easy to maintain in the field without need for an armorer, so that one doesn't fly, either.

In its original configuration, it could be quickly stripped to bare frame and slide without tools. I haven't seen one of the new pistols, so I don't know if any of their modifications have made that a lot more difficult, but I'd bet not. Even so, it would require a minimum in the way of tools in order to take it apart should it become fouled with dirt or mud.

The unit armorers are used for more major repairs...rebuilding the frames and refitting slides and barrels that are worn out or beaten out of serviceable condition. In the field, the pistol is a snap to maintain.

If you're ever in my neck of the woods, look me up and I'll knock one down for ya in about 60 seconds without so much as a punch...starting with a completely assembled gun.

Maybe the original 1911s used in the WWI or WWII, but I know first hand that the one MARSOC and Recon use are tuned, and anything more than cleaning requires some knowlege and tools. It can be learned, but it is no where as simple as a Glock or M9 for that matter. That was my big point. These are finely tuned warriors using finely tuned implements of war. Both require a certain level of maintainence above that of the basic grunt level. Most importantly, though, it works for them.

 

[neviander]

Well gentleman, and perhaps ladies, if there were any present, I really do appreciate your input/info. I really was not trying to stir up up a hornet's nest just for kicks and I wasn't trying to generate ad revenue, as one poster put it. I have learned volumes from this community over the years and wanted to know everybody's feelings on that article. You guys are my base (I have not served in the military, I just think the term fits) and I like to know what you think.

I know tempers flare and opinions will be heard with all kinda crazy fervor, but I'm glad at the end of the day we can all part ways peacefully with the same common interest and the same common enemy.

For y'all that have served, may God bless you. Here's to the best way of securing peace: preparing for war. Cheers.

 

[jeepnik]

I really don't care whether some self appointed expert thinks the 1911 is a poor weapon or not. I KNOW it works, or I wouldn't be typing this.

So cast aspersions on the most beautiful firearm ever made, it just shows you've never really needed one.

 

[powder]

Which has nothing to do with what the Marine SOC units want. The trainers aren't going through the doors and they won't be crawling into the caves. In my way of thinking...the guy who's gonna go do that gets to pick whatever he wants to take in with him.

You take a liberal assumption of who/where these 2 trainers are. You're wrong, so don't take basic comments as personal sleight: both of these guys still dabble in the 1911s, but their bread/butter, trophies and lives hang with polymer handguns.

 

[powder]

So cast aspersions on the most beautiful firearm ever made, it just shows you've never really needed one.

On duty, I have really needed one, and my COC chose we wear Glocks: choose the 17 or the 19. Beauty don't go far in an urban gunfight.

 

[FIVETWOSEVEN]

Touching upon the Marine's choice in picking the 1911. I must ask, what advantages does a 1911 have over other less expensive and "more modern" pistols? A match trigger isn't needed in a service sidearm for war and the accuracy that is found with poly service sidearms is enough.

What you get with a 1911 is a heavier pistol that is rarely used, low capacity compared to the double stack weapons found today, and something that has more parts then the common choices in service sidearms. More parts means more money spent on buying more parts. I see no advantage a 1911 offers over something such as an M&P or a Glock for a duty role.

That all being said, I would prefer a 1911 over anything else for service use. However I don't think it should be a general issue handgun due to mainly costs. Then again I think that soldiers should be allowed to carry what they want as long as it's reliable and uses standard issue ammo. We would save a lot of money that way.

 

[barnbwt]

1911's DO suck big time if you don't invest both the money and practice in them.

So they don't suck, they're just a pain in the ass?

I don't think the 1911 lovers are fan-boys, the guns do deliver what they advertise. But that's no excuse for being apologists;
-Yeah, it's more expensive to make it work right, but...
-Yeah, it's less consistent out of the box than other platforms, but...
-Yeah, it needs more maintenance to be reliable, but...

The one hard fact that puts the 1911 over the top that I see over and over, is that its trigger is highly preferred by target shooters. That's more than enough reason for most folks. If not that, it's looks and reputation.

The real reason I believe they are so popular, is because they are more heavily marketed than other platforms. Count the 1911-pistol ads in a gun-rag sometime; it's around 75% in the few I've thumbed through while getting a haircut. I see articles and ads for Les Baer's so often, it makes me wonder how much those precious guns actually cost to make.

I don't want to buy one (cool as they are) simply because "1911 Gunsmithing Problem" outnumbers all other issues combined in the 'Smith forums with alarming regularity. Kinda puts me off, even if it is just due to user-error.

TCB

...if that's what they say they need to get the job done then no questions asked on my part.

And that my friends, is how we justify borrowing for billion-dollar airplanes *bows*

 

[Skribs]

Jeff White, that reminds me of an argument I had with a coworker about a Vietnam War History class I took. His position was that unless the person was there, he isn't qualified to teach the class because he doesn't know what it was like (even if he went to Iraq, it wasn't the same war, so he's not qualified to teach on Vietnam). My position was that someone who was there knows what it was like where he was, but the historian is the one who knows the events for the entire war.

While experience helps you understand something, often times people can know more of the theory than the person doing the practical application. Just going into space doesn't teach you about the stars, just shooting doesn't teach you about the guns. Obviously someone with both the knowledge and experience offers a valuable well of wisdom, but we need both the grunts (people getting experience) and the thinkers (people doing lab tests) to move forward.

 

[tarosean]

Count the 1911-pistol ads in a gun-rag sometime; it's around 75%

It just so happens I have a copy of Guns OCT 2012 in my in box..

Colt 1911
Kimber 1911
Sig 1911

Glock
XD - 2 full ads.

Now there is an AR ad or accessories for them on damn near every page, but thats beside the point.

 

[The Man With No Name]

Honestly I don't have time to pick out every notion in this thread by those that can't look at it objectively. Suffice to say that it does not take 30000 rounds per year out of a pistol to become an expert. Anyone that thinks it does is just deluding itself. The fact that so many extra slides were ordered per pistol tells me how little even those who made this contract with Colt think of the durability of the gun. The fact that a Les Baer is precision fit doesn't mean it is not a better combat arm than the Colt. Make up your minds, they need the best tool or they don't. Which is it? A Glock would have the same service life with just periodic spring changes and eventually a firing pin change with the kind of round counts I'm led to believe they expect out of these Colts. Cost isn't the issue. Durability is. With Glocks they wouldn't need multiple slides per gun for spares. For those that say the average special ops soldier is more deadly at 100 yards with their pistol than the average soldier with an M4, I've shot with many and while good shots that is plain silly. The fact remains they would be even more deadly at 100 yards with an M4 so what is the point?

God forbid anyone dare say the 1911 is no longer the ultimate fighting tool when it comes to a sidearm. Same goes for anyone that dare say the choice of platform is so ridiculous as to be irresponsible when so many better choices exist.

 

[The Man With No Name]

I really don't care whether some self appointed expert thinks the 1911 is a poor weapon or not. I KNOW it works, or I wouldn't be typing this.

So cast aspersions on the most beautiful firearm ever made, it just shows you've never really needed one.

I'll answer this one since I see it on the same page I'm on right now. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. Personally I think the SAA is the most beautiful firearm ever made but that doesn't mean I think beauty is a qualification for duty use.

Never really needed one? The Les Baer 45 I had was for a need. I have current guns that fill various needs. Two specific needs currently though that the Glocks fit...
1. I need a duty weapon that just plain works, is accurate, and can withstand being banged around, dragged across the ground possibly, carried dirty strait from the range to a call of a man with a shotgun threatening his neighbor (yes this has happened), rained on, snowed on, covered in mud while I tried to rescue people from trailers after a tornado (yes this has happened), ect. Also nice is it not weighing me down more than necessary considering the amount of gear I have to carry.
2. I buy my off duty weapon. I want the same trigger, the same accuracy, the same durability.
That is not my Les Baer and that is why (considering I don't shoot competition any longer also) I finally sold it off after over a decade. It is not an heirloom. It (for me) was simply a tool to get a job done. If some of you are making emotional decisions about what to buy to defend your life with then fine. I am making a decision of the best tool to get the job done right then and if necessary allow me to fight back to a shotgun or rifle. Practical and the fact that I live with death threats, have to go outnumbered constantly into situations where I'm not the only one armed, and possibly take a humans life are what are on my mind. This is from someone that has range queens but doesn't want them in his holster when it is time to fight. Any 1911 (short of that polymer framed one possibly) is not even close to my first choice.

 

[AethelstanAegen]

While experience helps you understand something, often times people can know more of the theory than the person doing the practical application. Just going into space doesn't teach you about the stars, just shooting doesn't teach you about the guns. Obviously someone with both the knowledge and experience offers a valuable well of wisdom, but we need both the grunts (people getting experience) and the thinkers (people doing lab tests) to move forward.

Skribs, I'm with you that you don't have to have been somewhere to talk knowledgeably about a subject, but if your only source for the theory is one article with substantial factual errors, you really don't have much support for your theoretical position. Also, a discussion of a piece of kit, is far different from the discussion of a war. If you'd simply used a basic 1911, you'd know that the article you were reading was incorrect on many points and I think you would then look for alternative sources of theoretical information.

Long story short, I don't know why you would try to argue with people who own 1911s and know the article is incorrect unless you had experience with the platform that rang true to the article.

Using your analogy, you're trying to tell the Vietnam vet that his experience in the war was X because an article said so when he knows for a fact that his experience in the war was Y. And so while the article may be true for the experiences of select other vets (a minority of the sample), it certainly doesn't apply to all Vietnam vets and so should be considered with some degree of skepticism.

 

[The Man With No Name]

The handgun is usually the secondary firearm.

Polymer melts and will deform/break easier than steel. Did you happen to see the HK that broke at the grip from a fall?

How many issues did the Gen4 Glock have when a light was mounted?

My hi-cap 1911's are a smidge thinner than a 1911 with standard grips, just blockier.



Sent from my ADR6425LVW using Tapatalk 2

1. Correct. Or incorrect. Some make it out that all this cave fighting is going on overseas with a handgun and flashlight as the only tools.
2. What is the melting point of polymer. I've carried my Glocks for hours on end in 100+ degree heat this past summer without them melting. The HK example is one we know next to nothing about. For all we know any gun would have been rendered useless from whatever happened. Or has more info come out about what happened?
3. None in my department. We are all issued lights and the appropriate retention holsters and have had zero issues.
4. The last one I held was a Para Stainless P14 I think was the model. Compared to me single stack Les Baer it felt like a brick. It was noticeable wider in the grip and blockier feeling. Killed the killer grip of the original design.

 

[The Man With No Name]

I absolutely love reading internet "gun experts" riffing on what the Marines "need" or "should have bought".



Are you making that statement based on all the time that you spent in the Marine Special Ops world?



Again...what basis do you have for determining what the "reason" is for a special operations unit selecting a tool they use? Unless you are part of that unit, and know what it is they need, none of us are qualified to have even an opinion on that choice.

1. I'm not the one that brought them up as an example. Read back some.
2. Spent zero time in that world. Are there needs that much different than any of us that have to fight with a gun. Not just range work but have to actually use the gun in our holster as a tool to fight with? One gun as a better range queen or competition tool does not make it a better fighting tool in truly rough environments. I didn't start the debate about it as I've always cared less about whatever the fad of the day was in the spec ops world but I'm certainly not happy to see another example of my tax dollars being wasted on the inferior tool.
3. Well if none of us are qualified then lets discuss why we don't see them frequently in the modern cops holsters. I'll discuss that as an leo at length in particular why it is inferior in that role.

Let's not get too preachy about the whole thing. I didn't bring it up but at the same time dislike it being used as an example of why the design is supposedly superior when thousands of examples exist of it not being chosen for serious use.

 

[Skribs]

Aeth, where did I say I agree 100% with the article?

I agree with the author's position that the 1911 is not as optimal a choice as a Glock or similar, but I never said I agree with all his reasons. My biggest issues with it are capacity and weight, and (for most models) price. I also agree that double-stack or polymer-frame 1911s fix those issues, although the price issue is still there (I don't think I've ever seen another autoloader go for nearly as much as I've seen some 1911s go for...and people say "you get what you pay for" even at $3k).

 

[The Man With No Name]

Another 1911-bashing, Glock fanboy taking a break from the Glock kool-aid to stir the pot. IMO, the more simple and cheaper Glock is a better defensive gun for the masses IMO, but a good 1911 a finer and more refined tool in the hands of skilled shooters. But, let's not talk about the Glock Gen 2 AD issue, the Gen2 .40sw KB issue, the Gen2 .45acp light primer strike issue, the Gen4 9mm FTE/FTF issue, the G30sf FTRTB issue, the Gen3 .40sw FTF light issue, and so on.... afterall, wouldn't want to actually be fair or objective in our internet gun bashing.

Low road if I've ever seen it.

Gen 2 AD issues? The only AD issues I saw were those caused by shooters. Seen just as many from those handling a 1911 in an unsafe manner.

Gen2 40sw kb issue? That is actually the gun I have the most experience with. I doubt I will ever reach that kind of round count with a gun again. Not one kb. Never saw an issue other than those hot loading their own home brewed ammo.

Gen4 9mm fte/ftf issue? We have a whole department of officers that have not experience that during qualification or duty use yet.

I'm sure Glock has had issues. I'm sure anyone that has manafactured 20million guns has also. Let's not pretend that we are talking about anything other than 1911 fans not wanting to admit the obvious truth. I'm hardly a fan boy. I just like things that work for their intended purpose. If one thing is better than the other then I don't mind saying so either.

 

[el Godfather]

What if a hammer lowering device is optionally added to frames? Would that an double stack take care of some of the key issues?

 

[The Man With No Name]

Well...I guess you'll just have to accept that it's a good enough reason for them. After all, they'll be going through the door and into the cave, etc. Hey...If one of'em turned to me and asked for big red lollipop before he hit the door...I'd be scramblin' around lookin' for a big red lollipop.

And that is why so much money is wasted on such a routine basis still. Too many will blindly accept things. If one of them asked for a big red lollipop before he hit the door and was serious then I would figure he was either bucking for a trip to a psychiatrist or actually needed one. This is going to be how I see the justification of inferior tools in the future for our military. The Big Red Lollipop Syndrome.

 

[Skribs]

Personally I see no reason for a decocker on a SAO pistol...but I would absolutely require it if I ever went DA/SA (otherwise why not just go SAO?).
Throw in a polymer frame (with as much gear as they wear, I'd say every ounce counts) and you fix most of the issues I see.

Of course, the problem is that I don't really see what a double-stack polymer 1911 would offer over a Glock (same vice-versa). Little bit different control scheme, but if both are built and tuned for combat, I don't think there will be much functionally different at that point.

 

[The Man With No Name]

I can say my training came from dear old dad, a man who spent 43 years in uniform as a soldier and LEO, who graduated from 2 police academies at the top of his class, a man who posted at age 60 (with trifocals) outshot every officer from 2 departments that day with an M9. This was not his personal sidearm, in fact his duty 92FS (from a civilian LE agency he spent several decades with) was sold off after 2 years in favor of a 686 (that's an old tyme wheel gun what only held 6 rounds).

As for me, dad started me on single shot firearms, progressed to bolts & levers, SA/DA revolvers and eventually autos like the Buckmark, Colt Mustang and 1911. How much do I shoot? Maybe 10,000 rounds in a good year and 5,000 in an off year. Do I own polymer frame pistols? Yes. Revolvers, automatics, shotguns, rimfires, centerfires, rifles, an AR, alloy frame? Yes to all of the above. Can I outshoot dad? The stars have occasionally aligned and the rest of the time it's damn close. Hope that answers your questions about me.

Now, back to the question I asked: can any here make fact of the "writer's" assertions? You see, over and over it is being asked "What does the 1911 do that a xxx cannot?" Well, what can an xxx do that a 1911 cannot? Cost less and have a pitiful trigger? I lumped in the Diamondback as a cheap Glock alternative since cost is apparently critical to many and because it's a "modern" firearm.

A few from my stash. Note the "old tyme" 1911 and the "ultra modern" M&P. What a difference 100 years makes!

Yes. Read the thread. Specifically a Glock can go 100k plus rounds WITHOUT a slide replacement. The armorer training is so easy that all operators could be trained as armorers if needed. Ordering multiple spare slides per gun is not needed. Also you pretty much killed any hopes of me taking you serious the second you admitted you were lumping in a gun you have no experience with because you feel it is a cheap Glock alternative.

 

[1911Tuner]

Maybe the original 1911s used in the WWI or WWII, but I know first hand that the one MARSOC and Recon use are tuned, and anything more than cleaning requires some knowlege and tools.

Yes. I know. I had a Marine SSgt...one Chris Matute...who was one of the armorers involved with the project back in 2005 as a guest here not long ago. He described exactly how the pistols are built and tuned.

"Tuned" doesn't mean that the pistol requires an armorer's tool kit to disassemble it. It's still a 1911, and the procedure can be taught quickly. I've taught people to do it in less than a half-hour, and they've reported that after about 10 repetitions, they knocked the time down to around 10 minutes for the complete process...starting with a fully assembled gun and back to a fully assembled gun. The 1911 ain't exactly a Swiss watch.

And you can bet that it is taught to Special Ops personnel. At times, they're in the field, far from armorer support. The ability to keep their weapons running is paramount.

Now, I'll go ahead and tease ya a little.

The 1911 is its own tool box, and the thumb safety is the key that opens it. If the thumb safety isn't made to, or approximate the original specs, a nail or something similar will do as an expedient key.

 

[Choclabman]

I owned a Kimber Series 1 once. It was sold. Have shot other 1911's over the years. There is nothing about the 1911 like.
The Marines could have done better.


No, I have never served with an elite unit. Spent a lot of time with 2nd Tank Bn however. I hated the issue M9 as well.

 

[1911Tuner]

You take a liberal assumption of who/where these 2 trainers are. You're wrong, so don't take basic comments as personal sleight: both of these guys still dabble in the 1911s, but their bread/butter, trophies and lives hang with polymer handguns.

Which still has nothing to do with the reasons that the Marine Special Ops units chose the 1911...and regardless of where the trainers have been and what they've done...they still won't be going into the hell that these Marines will. What works on the streets of Chicago or LA may not work so well in the mountains of Afghanistan.

As Jeff White so eloquently put it...They didn't make their choice based on the latest custom pistol on the cover of Guns and Ammo, and they didn't make it on any misplaced feelings of nostalgia.

Try try try to wrap your head around something. They tested and evaluated several pistols and they made their choice... carefully...because making the wrong choice increases their chances of coming home in a plastic bag. There was no fanboyism involved. There was no Mall Ninja/Tacticool or Jeff Cooper idolatry in the equation. These guys are carefully selected, and highly trained professionals. They don't have time for such silliness.