I was first introduced to rifles by my old neighbors who had me hitting targets at 300 yards with their rifles within 20 minutes of sitting down with the rifle. That really got me excited about it, and now I would like to purchase a rifle to go to the range with, as well as to try my hand at hunting for something other then birds. So now I am not sure what rifle would be the best one to get as I think I only need to have one. So what would be best if I wanted to hunt deer and other like sized game? .308 or 30-06 or?? Right now I am looking at a Howa M-1500 which seems like a really nice rifle to me and tends to get more reviews. Can anybody please give me some pointers here?
1st rifle... .308 or 30-06
- Thread starter tunaman
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Well, IF you really think that you truly will not buy more than one full-caliber rifle, and IF you buy into what Cooper et al think is the best all-purpose round for a scout type rifle (a specific kind of all-purpose rifle), - e.g. if you'll be toting the rifle long distances - then you'd get one chambered in .308 Win or 7mm-08, probably .308, because of the weight reduction that's a consequence of the shorter action. But, 30-06 of course is also outstanding choice whether you ever add others or not - arguably a better choice than .308, specially if you're NOT toting the gun for long stretches in your likely applications, or if you might want to go after slightly larger game like mulies, elk, etc. No experience with the Howas, but good luck - I'm sure you'll get lots of good input here on any/all brands with the proper prodding. Welcome to riflery - hitting what yer aiming for at long range is a hoot isn't it?
rugerfreak
Member
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- Dec 25, 2002
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.30-06------but I'm too tired to give the arguement why.
Just say----you can't go wrong getting a .30-06---------------and could do a lot worse.
Just say----you can't go wrong getting a .30-06---------------and could do a lot worse.
Deer Gun
.308 = lighter gun, takes down deer, and "like sized game".
Tell us more about your plans, and the answer may change.
.30-06 can more reliably take down a wider variety of game due to its ability to handle bullets in the 220gr range.
.308 allows you to use mil-surp ammo (7.62mm NATO), and is thus better suited as a make-shift militia weapon.
-Morgan
.308 = lighter gun, takes down deer, and "like sized game".
Tell us more about your plans, and the answer may change.
.30-06 can more reliably take down a wider variety of game due to its ability to handle bullets in the 220gr range.
.308 allows you to use mil-surp ammo (7.62mm NATO), and is thus better suited as a make-shift militia weapon.
-Morgan
Oh the big debate , now you did it.
The 30-06 gives a little more power and a little more recoil and a little more down range ballistics than the .308, and is more capable of handling heavier bullets in the 200-220 grain weight for bigger size game like elk. The .308 is not lacking, as their is more plinking ammo available as surplus. The more you shoot the better you hit your target.
I would suggest getting the Remington 700 but for a good low priced bolt gun you really can't beat the Savage line of rifles.
The 30-06 gives a little more power and a little more recoil and a little more down range ballistics than the .308, and is more capable of handling heavier bullets in the 200-220 grain weight for bigger size game like elk. The .308 is not lacking, as their is more plinking ammo available as surplus. The more you shoot the better you hit your target.
I would suggest getting the Remington 700 but for a good low priced bolt gun you really can't beat the Savage line of rifles.
What kind of rifle did you shoot that you enjoyed so much and what caliber was it? Maybe you should try to get as close as possible to that. All that "which is best" stuff just fades into insignificance if you like something.
Any of the calibers from .24 to .30 will do fine on deer - there's just a difference in carry weight and recoil. You hunted birds - upland or ducks/geese? That kind of gives you an idea how much rifle weight you want to lug around. It isn't scientific, but I consider the relative recoil of the rifles to be something like .243 = 20 gauge, .308/.30-'06 = 12 gauge. I wouldn't want to shoot a 12 gauge in a 20 gauge frame, and I wouldn't want to lug around a 20 gauge that weighs as much as a 12 gauge.
Jaywalker
Any of the calibers from .24 to .30 will do fine on deer - there's just a difference in carry weight and recoil. You hunted birds - upland or ducks/geese? That kind of gives you an idea how much rifle weight you want to lug around. It isn't scientific, but I consider the relative recoil of the rifles to be something like .243 = 20 gauge, .308/.30-'06 = 12 gauge. I wouldn't want to shoot a 12 gauge in a 20 gauge frame, and I wouldn't want to lug around a 20 gauge that weighs as much as a 12 gauge.
Jaywalker
ojibweindian
Member
For most applications under general conditions with the average shooter, .308 Winchester/Springfield .30-06 is a wash. However, the .30-06 is a more capable cartridge for those who reload.
Essentially, if you reload, plan on reloading, or even think that reloading is in your future (as it is in mine), get the .30-06.
Essentially, if you reload, plan on reloading, or even think that reloading is in your future (as it is in mine), get the .30-06.
Black Snowman
Member
I have 2 .308s and a .30-06
They are both excelent choices and have extensive load data. If you're reloading or even getting ammo off the shelf the .30-06 will give you a little more versatility. I think that's important if it's going to be your only rifle.
But as people have said, a lot of it has to do with the rifle as well. If the rifle you want is only available in one or the other it sort of makes up your mind for you
As a versatile rifle I'd recommend looking into the CZ 550. It's available in both .308 and .30-06, is quite accurate, has a set trigger for target work and a decent standard trigger for hunting.
Happy shopping and be sure to enjoy whatever you get
They are both excelent choices and have extensive load data. If you're reloading or even getting ammo off the shelf the .30-06 will give you a little more versatility. I think that's important if it's going to be your only rifle.
But as people have said, a lot of it has to do with the rifle as well. If the rifle you want is only available in one or the other it sort of makes up your mind for you
As a versatile rifle I'd recommend looking into the CZ 550. It's available in both .308 and .30-06, is quite accurate, has a set trigger for target work and a decent standard trigger for hunting.
Happy shopping and be sure to enjoy whatever you get
Art Eatman
Moderator In Memoriam
I've been reloading for a .30-'06 since 1950. If I didn't reload, and thought mostly in terms of recreational paper-punching and hunting deer-sized game, I would go with the .308. A 150-grain bullet works just fine for deer, and in factory loadings there's little difference in velocity.
The .308 doesn't lose as much velocity as the '06, comparing the longer 24" and 26" barrels which are nearer optimum for the '06, with the more common 22" and 20" barrels on most of today's sporters.
My primary reason would be the less expensive practice ammo. More shooting for the money...
Art
The .308 doesn't lose as much velocity as the '06, comparing the longer 24" and 26" barrels which are nearer optimum for the '06, with the more common 22" and 20" barrels on most of today's sporters.
My primary reason would be the less expensive practice ammo. More shooting for the money...
Art
CaesarI Stated:
This is quite a dangerous statement to make.
SAAMI specs for .308 are for pressures in the 50,000 psi range.
SAAMI and Mil-Spec for NATO 7.62mm are in the 60,000+ psi range.
A rifle chambered specifically for the NATO round will easily handle a civilian .308. A rifle chambered for .308 and built to SAAMI specs for that round probably has enough excess pressure handling ability built into it (engineers typically build excess capability into things they design) to handle the NATO cartridge but I wouldn't bet my life or weapon on it.
The same holds true for the 5.56 NATO cartridge vs the Rem .223. They are not the same. A barrel chambered for the 5.56 can easily handle the Rem .223 but it's risky to put a 5.56 NATO cartridge into a chamber for the REM .223 and built to Rem .223 SAAMI specs.
I know people that use surplus NATO rounds in their civilian weapons chambered specifically for the .308 and Rem .223 all the time without incident - YET.
The Specs on the cartridges are different and that's enough for me to say don't shoot a NATO spec'd cartridge out of a civilian spec'd chamber. The opposite is however OK.
This is quite a dangerous statement to make.
SAAMI specs for .308 are for pressures in the 50,000 psi range.
SAAMI and Mil-Spec for NATO 7.62mm are in the 60,000+ psi range.
A rifle chambered specifically for the NATO round will easily handle a civilian .308. A rifle chambered for .308 and built to SAAMI specs for that round probably has enough excess pressure handling ability built into it (engineers typically build excess capability into things they design) to handle the NATO cartridge but I wouldn't bet my life or weapon on it.
The same holds true for the 5.56 NATO cartridge vs the Rem .223. They are not the same. A barrel chambered for the 5.56 can easily handle the Rem .223 but it's risky to put a 5.56 NATO cartridge into a chamber for the REM .223 and built to Rem .223 SAAMI specs.
I know people that use surplus NATO rounds in their civilian weapons chambered specifically for the .308 and Rem .223 all the time without incident - YET.
The Specs on the cartridges are different and that's enough for me to say don't shoot a NATO spec'd cartridge out of a civilian spec'd chamber. The opposite is however OK.
Slingster
Member
Tunaman:
Why don't you buy this rifle in Classifieds, shoot all three barrels (.308, .270, .30-06), keep the one you like best, and sell the others?
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=41428
Why don't you buy this rifle in Classifieds, shoot all three barrels (.308, .270, .30-06), keep the one you like best, and sell the others?
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=41428
I agree with Kharn. Most references I'm familiar with discuss the possible concerns of using commercial ammo in a milsurp chamber rather than the other way around; there are headspace issue involved. Pressure is less an issue since standards (CUP, psi, etc.) aren't directly comparable, but most people think they're pretty close anyway. (I've read descriptions that say the standards are less than the differences experienced as a result of different temperatures the day you're shooting.) I'd use commercial if I were reloading, though.
Jaywalker
Jaywalker
Thanks for all the tips! I checked out that rifle in the classifieds but I think it s a little out of my price range. The rifle I was looking at is a Howa 1500 with a scope for $400. I am leaning towards the .308 now because as much as I would love to go on a trip hunting for Elk, I don't think thats going to happen for me anytime soon and I am sure by the time it does happen, it would be more viable for me to buy another rifle. I love going to the range and plinking and so if cheap plinking ammo is available for cheap in hte .308 that would probably be the best for me then.
Thanks again!!
Thanks again!!
FireInTheHole
Member
There is actually some korean surplus in 30-06 available right now.... apparently this is a new developement.
Many flavors of surplus .308 one the market in the $150/case price range.
(30-06 is about $200/case)
Many flavors of surplus .308 one the market in the $150/case price range.
(30-06 is about $200/case)
Pumpkinheaver
Member
A deer will not be able to tell the difference weather you shoot it with a .308 or with a 30-06. Find a gun you like and buy it in your caliber of choice.
Kharn Said:
Sorry Guys but I'm not wrong.
The following link is straight off the SAAMI site and shows unsafe cartridge/chambering combinations. Look for yourselves.
Unsafe Arms and Ammunition Combinations
For those that don't want to visit the SAAMI site here is the extract:
CENTERFIRE RIFLE
In Firearms Chambered For
223 Remington do not use 5.56mm Military
308 Winchester do not use 7.62x39
As I said before - if for example you've got an M16 clone that is explicitly chambered for the 5.56 mm round you can run .223 Rem in it but not vice versa. In fact Bushmaster says as much on it's web site and in it's catalog. The .308 non interchangability is less well known but still fact.
I don't know about you guys but I'm not gonna argue with SAAMI. If they say not to put a 7.62 NATO in a .308 Winchester then I'm not gonna do it. Not worth the risk.
Sorry Guys but I'm not wrong.
The following link is straight off the SAAMI site and shows unsafe cartridge/chambering combinations. Look for yourselves.
Unsafe Arms and Ammunition Combinations
For those that don't want to visit the SAAMI site here is the extract:
CENTERFIRE RIFLE
In Firearms Chambered For
223 Remington do not use 5.56mm Military
308 Winchester do not use 7.62x39
As I said before - if for example you've got an M16 clone that is explicitly chambered for the 5.56 mm round you can run .223 Rem in it but not vice versa. In fact Bushmaster says as much on it's web site and in it's catalog. The .308 non interchangability is less well known but still fact.
I don't know about you guys but I'm not gonna argue with SAAMI. If they say not to put a 7.62 NATO in a .308 Winchester then I'm not gonna do it. Not worth the risk.
iamkris
Member
Ummm, Werewolf, you actually are wrong about the SAAMI site you quote:
The SAAMI Unsafe Cartridge combos page calls out 7.62x39...however that is the Russian round. 7.62x51mm is the NATO round.
Plus, here are the pressure figures I've seen. (That said, I've seen the numbers the other way around also)
SAAMI .308 Winchester chamber pressures:
MAP: 62,000 psi
MPSM: 66,000 psi
Minimum Proof Pressure: 83,000 psi
Maximum Proof Pressure: 89,000 psi
US Army 7.62x51 chamber pressures:
Maximum: 50,000 psi
Proof pressure: 67,500 psi
7.62x51 NATO pressure data from: TM 43-001-27 "Army Ammunition Data Sheets Small Caliber Ammunition" and headspace data from Kuhnhausen's M1/M1A shop manual.
.308 Winchester data from ANSI/SAAMI document Z299.4-1992, "Pressure and Velocity, Centerfire Rifle Sporting Ammunition"
The SAAMI Unsafe Cartridge combos page calls out 7.62x39...however that is the Russian round. 7.62x51mm is the NATO round.
Plus, here are the pressure figures I've seen. (That said, I've seen the numbers the other way around also)
SAAMI .308 Winchester chamber pressures:
MAP: 62,000 psi
MPSM: 66,000 psi
Minimum Proof Pressure: 83,000 psi
Maximum Proof Pressure: 89,000 psi
US Army 7.62x51 chamber pressures:
Maximum: 50,000 psi
Proof pressure: 67,500 psi
7.62x51 NATO pressure data from: TM 43-001-27 "Army Ammunition Data Sheets Small Caliber Ammunition" and headspace data from Kuhnhausen's M1/M1A shop manual.
.308 Winchester data from ANSI/SAAMI document Z299.4-1992, "Pressure and Velocity, Centerfire Rifle Sporting Ammunition"
Having read up on the .308 vs 7.62 X 51 NATO issue, several years ago I decided it was OK to shoot 7.62 NATO ammo in my .308 hunting rifle (Rem 700). I have shot prolly a hundred or two rounds of it, and it shoots fine. POI is nearly identical to 150gr commercial .308 loads.
So, if you do NOT plan to reload, .308 will probably give you cheaper plinking ammo. Even without surplus, you can generally find Winchester "white box" or UMC "yellow box" at $7-8 per 20. Good milsurp NATO is down to $2-4 per 20, if you buy in quantity.
If you do reload, .30-06 has the better flexibility, etc.
Then again, if you go .308 and then decide to reload later, you can still have a lot of flexibility with the .308. The two are just mighty similar.
So, if you do NOT plan to reload, .308 will probably give you cheaper plinking ammo. Even without surplus, you can generally find Winchester "white box" or UMC "yellow box" at $7-8 per 20. Good milsurp NATO is down to $2-4 per 20, if you buy in quantity.
If you do reload, .30-06 has the better flexibility, etc.
Then again, if you go .308 and then decide to reload later, you can still have a lot of flexibility with the .308. The two are just mighty similar.
Brian Dale
Member
Ummm,
.308 velocities approach traditional .30-'06 loads, epecially with premium hunting ammunition. Kudu mentioned the 200-220 grain advantage with the '06, but didn't say that it would preclude elk hunting. You might be writing the .308 off for elk a little too early. Kudu, your thoughts? Any other experienced elk hunters (I'm not one) want to chime in here?
A lot of Elk have beeen harvested with a .270 in much lighter bullets
Get the right bullet...make a good shot..and Elk are very doable.
There is not that much difference
if you are worried, try the Hornady "light-Magnum" rounds
Get the right bullet...make a good shot..and Elk are very doable.
There is not that much difference
if you are worried, try the Hornady "light-Magnum" rounds
I wouldn't feel under gunned for elk with 180-190 grain bullets in a .308. Last I heard Colorado would allow .243 with 100 grain bullets, thats a little light for me. It would mean under 100 yrds before I would take a shot, as shot placement would be critical. Use a good premium hunting bullet and go for it. I would place more faith in the small gun if the hunter practiced alot than a big gun with questionable accuracy.
Weaps
Member
For what it is worth I have (my dad has) a Howa 1500 in the guise of a S&W 1500 rifle in .270. It is a very accurate rifle with nice finish and a smooth action. One of these in .30-06 or .308 would be a fine rifle for deer hunting or general shooting.
Doc
Member
why does everyone only want to buy one gun?????:banghead:
you all KNOW that you will buy another gun later.
buy guns. buy the best guns you can afford, now.
in case you haven't noticed the federal and state governments are actively trying to remove your rights to acquire and own firearms. so buy guns, buy them now, buy them often (help me out here Shunky or El Tejon!)
there is no 'one gun' if there were we wouldn't have 300+ calibers and dozens of makes from which to choose. in any particular caliber or price range there are at least two from which to choose. If you want really good guns, you need custom guns which are in very few of our price ranges. try Robar, Les Baer, MGA (PM me and I'll be happy to rant some more! )
you all KNOW that you will buy another gun later.
buy guns. buy the best guns you can afford, now.
in case you haven't noticed the federal and state governments are actively trying to remove your rights to acquire and own firearms. so buy guns, buy them now, buy them often (help me out here Shunky or El Tejon!)
there is no 'one gun' if there were we wouldn't have 300+ calibers and dozens of makes from which to choose. in any particular caliber or price range there are at least two from which to choose. If you want really good guns, you need custom guns which are in very few of our price ranges. try Robar, Les Baer, MGA (PM me and I'll be happy to rant some more!
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