2 browning HP cheap, better than the imports

[xr1200]

Here are 2 auctions for commercial USA Browning Hp, with out import marks and they are not police surplus. These are examples of what you can find if you look around. It would cost you about $150-$200 just to refurb one of the old police imports to even equal the condition of these 2 pistols and even though the refurb would look nice, your still stuck with the devalued import marks on the side of the pistol.

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=207256575
$499 buy it now

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=207518908

$545-$645 buy it now

 

[KodiakBeer]

The first one is priced good, but still $125 more than the FN pistols.

I completely fail to see why paying $645 for the second used Hi Power is a "bargain".

 

[xr1200]

We been thru this before, its like beating a dead horse with you.

1. average reblue and disassembly and reassembly is $150 -$250 per handgun, plus shipping $40-$60 UPS to shop and $25-$30 USPS mail for shipping back to you, and you can't ship a handgun for $10 yourself, unless you are a dealer, you must ship 2nd. day air UPS or fed ex.

2. Average price of Izi Hp is $390-$475 delivered, even taking the $390 price you paid for yours and add the $390 + $150 reblue + $60 min shipping = $600 total costs to refinish your gun at the low end of all the price scales and that doesn't even include new grips or any worn parts that might need replacement.

The botton line is that your IZI FN HP reworked would only be worth $450-$500 max, not really worth investing much into it.

Even at $645 the this browning is a far better value than any izi hp out there, as its a polished blue model, and a Browning FN model, new price $775-$825

You can harp all you want about your purchase and praise, but as you can see there are a lot better deals out there, than the IZI HP you bought, bottom line.

Question how much have you put into yours total so far and what have you done to it ?

 

[rellascout]

To me there are two scenrios where the Isreali Hi-powers are a good deal.

First is if you do not care at all what they look like, as most of them show considerable wear, and you can get it for less than $400 OTD. Yes you can always roll the dice on the pictures in the auctions but lets be honest they are not detailed enough to tell the real condition of the gun. It might look great like Kodiak's did or it might look like this.... Which is not an Isreali gun but is a recent surplus import.




Also if you can hand pick one in person and get OTD under $450 I think you have done well. I consider these to be the same scenrio. I think a lot of people on a budget can get their hands on a real HP this way and there is a lot of value in that.

The second one is if you are looking for a base gun for a custom build. If you can get a decent MKIII for under $400 you have a good starting point. Spending about $400 to $550 to get a C&S hammer, sear, wide trigger, Novak nights, new Wolff springs, extended C&S safety, trigger job and a reblue or higher end finish. This would get you an excellent gun MKIII for somewhere between $800 and $950. This is a nice savings over getting a used commerical gun for even $500 because you are going to replace the parts and refinish the gun anyway.

On the other hand if you care what the gun looks like and are the type to refinish a gun that shows wear I would not get a Isreali gun. There are commerical BHPs which can be had for $500 to $550 which represent better upfront value and better resale value.

Also IMHO you need to be comfortable to strip the thing to the frame. This is not hard but it is the only real way to ensure that your surplus HP is in good working order. Not everyone wants to or is able to do that.

 

[xr1200]

I agree with you if you can look these over before buying one, but the fact is that there are only 2 places in the country selling these and most of us must rely on online auctions or mail order. There is a big difference when you live with in driving distance of a big online seller.

 

[KodiakBeer]

We been thru this before, its like beating a dead horse with you.

You're beating a make-believe horse. Delivery is well under $400 ($10 shipping). To refinish or not is a personal choice, most of these have good finish.

Question how much have you put into yours total so far and what have you done to it ?

I replaced the recoil spring with a Wolff 18.5 pounder, just as I'd do with a brand new Hi Power. I replaced the hammer spring with a Wolff 26 pounder, just as I'd do with a brand new Hi Power. I removed the mag disconnect, just as I'd do with a brand new Hi Power.

In effect, I've spent nothing that I wouldn't spend on a NIB Hi Power, or on either of the pistols above.

Neither of those pistols you've linked will shoot any better than the Izzy. All of these guns came off the same machinery at FN, and probably at about the same time.

I rather like the high polish blue, but I'm not willing to spend a $275 premium for it on a used pistol.

 

[KodiakBeer]

Most of these guns were made in the 90's and are in far better condition than you think they are. The pictures provided by Robinsons were clear and detailed. There were no surprises, and if there had been I'd have returned it.

 

[Paul7]

xr1200, your whole point that the Israelis are not worth it and a poor deal is disproved by the fact many people are buying these. The marketplace says you're wrong. Any object is worth what you can get for it.

I bought one for $379 + $10 shipping + $15 transfer and am very happy with it. I put on Hogue grips and will have the mag disconnect fixed, but I would have done that with your more expensive first example, and your second one is $275 more than mine. Mine was also returnable if I didn't like it, are your two examples?

 

[rellascout]

I rather like the high polish blue, but I'm not willing to spend a $275 premium for it on a used pistol.

Which is your choice. You do not see the value but others might. I think the issue comes down to this but you keep trying to tell people that this:

IS equal to this:



or this:



of this:



Which is simply not the case and the market shows that. Each of these guns where much better deals than the current Isreali guns. The first is a pre T series gun which cost less than $550. IIRC. The 2nd is a MKIII with custom work done by Don @ Action Works cost $550 OTD with the work already done. The last one is a 1972 BHP with custom parts and trigger job by Wild West guns and the base gun for that was less than $450. I saw a legit Novak Spec-OPs sell for $850 on the Sig Forum. I would have pulled out the credit card to get a $1800 custom gun for $850.

The point which you simply will not except is that there is a reason the Israelis are selling in the sub $400 range and the ones priced above that level are not. It because they is the top end of what they are worth.

 

[rellascout]

xr1200, your whole point that the Israelis are not worth it and a poor deal is disproved by the fact many people are buying these. The marketplace says you're wrong. Any object is worth what you can get for it.

I bought one for $379 + $10 shipping + $15 transfer and am very happy with it. I put on Hogue grips and will have the mag disconnect fixed, but I would have done that with your more expensive first example, and your second one is $275 more than mine. Mine was also returnable if I didn't like it, are your two examples?

You are 100% right the sub $400 guns are selling. All the ones priced above that mark are still for sale and IMHO will be for a long time because they priced too high.

Honestly if you look on Auction arms and Guns America the guns over $400 are not moving. The alloy frames the, beat up T series, the worn out practicals are all still there because "the market" is rejecting their higher price point because they lack value.

 

[KodiakBeer]

You do not see the value but others might. I think the issue comes down to this but you keep trying to tell people that this:

.....

IS equal to this:

Equal would suggest they were the same price. If they were the same price (equal), I'd get the nice blued one. But they aren't the same price - the blued one he is raving about is $275 more than the $379 Izzy's. And there's no guarantee that the bluing is in good shape (bluing isn't noted for durability) or that its even original bluing.

If I could get a nicely blued used Hi Power for $379, I'd snap it up. At $645, I'll pass.

 

[rellascout]

If I could get a nicely blued used Hi Power for $379, I'd snap it up. At $645, I'll pass.

Did not pay $645 for any of them... Look at the one from Action works. New sights, new trigger, new hammer and sear, upgraded firing pin all C&S parts plus custom job for $550. Delete the custom features and the base gun cost me about $250.00

Once again you seem to miss the point. You can get nicely blued used BHPs for very close to what you paid for your Israeli gun if you are patient and know where to look which is not always auction sites.....

 

[KodiakBeer]

I bought one for $379 + $10 shipping + $15 transfer and am very happy with it.

It's odd that the people who have bought these are happy, but the people who have never seen one think they are junk.

 

[rellascout]

It's odd that the people who have bought these are happy, but the people who have never seen one think they are junk.

Who said they were junk? What people have said is that many of them are over priced. There is a difference which you seem to ignore. Please show me where I said they were junk. I have stated that for $400 OTD they are a decent deal. They are not a screaming deal that you portray them as. The last time we went round and round on this you were proven wrong on most facts.

There are in fact $700 NIB BHPs @ CDNN, Actually they are currently $689. + shipping. MSRP is not the real world price of a BHP.

You claimed FN marked guns sell for the same price as Browning marked guns. FALSE!!!! FN marked HI powers sell for less than Browning marked guns none of the people who spoke to this point agreed with you.

You claimed that used Hi powers were in the $650 and up range exclusively. Time and time again people brought up and showed you commercial Hi powers selling in the $500s.

You claimed that Import marks on surplus guns did not bring down the resale value of a gun. Again everyone who chimed in stated that import marked surplus guns are always worth less than their commercial bethern due to the import mark.

You also claimed that surplus guns value goes up at a high rate.... Your examples were E German Maks and Blue Sky marked M1 Garands. If you look at these examples closely you will see that their increase in value barely beat the rate of inflation. While they did not decrease they did not have an overly impressive rate of return.

The only thing you have stated and been able to actually prove is that you bought a $379 surplus Hi Power. That you like your Israeli Hi Power and that you "think" you got a screaming deal. Again a functional sub $400 BHP is a good thing. I do not think anyone is arguing against that it is just that they are not that great a deal. From the actual guns and pics I have seen and the one you got is in the top 90% in terms of condition. Most are not that nice. In fact most of the ones selling in the $440 range are not that nice.

This is much more typical of the sub $400 guns.













This is a gun listed at $439...





PS if you look at enough of Robertson Trading Post ads you will notice he is using the same gun over and over again for different auctions.

 

[KodiakBeer]

Who said they were junk? What people have said is that many of them are over priced.

$379 is overpriced?

This is much more typical of the sub $400 guns.

No, it isn't. Actually, the old beater 1940-1970 Izzy's are going for more than the newer "contract" 90's era Izzy's which are in good shape.

You claimed FN marked guns sell for the same price as Browning marked guns. FALSE!!!!

Anybody paying a premium for a Browning billboard on the slide is unwise. Both guns are made by FN. If the resale value of commercial Hi Power is higher than a military Hi Power it's only because the general public doesn't understand that both models are made by FN and of identical quality.

You claimed that Import marks on surplus guns did not bring down the resale value of a gun.

Not if you remove them when refinishing (should you choose to refinish).

As a wise man once said: “It’s just a tool box. You pick the tool for the job.” I don't pick a tool for the advert on the slide, I pick it for what it does and the quality of manufacture. I don't pay extra for advertisements etched into the metal.

 

[rellascout]

No, it isn't. Actually, the old beater 1940-1970 Izzy's are going for more than the newer "contract" 90's era Izzy's which are in good shape.

Only the first gun is an older $379 gun. The others are MKIIs from the mid to late 80's which represents the majority of the guns being sold at $379. In fact the next 2 are used over and over again in Robertson's auctions which means the pictures are not the actual gun you are going to get.

Anybody paying a premium for a Browning billboard on the slide is unwise. Both guns are made by FN. If the resale value of commercial Hi Power is higher than a military Hi Power it's only because the general public doesn't understand that both models are made by FN and of identical quality.

Wise or unwise the market is clear. The FN guns sell for less. Simply saying it should not be so does not change the reality of the market. They always have and always will. The only FN marked guns that sell for more are the ones that are highly collectible WWII guns. For someone whose signature is a quote from Ayn Rand you do not seem to understand free market principles very well. The market should and in this case does set the value whether you agree or disagree makes no difference. Unless you are buying enough guns, in this case, to change the market or have enough of a voice to change others opinions which from the threads we have engaged in does not seem to be the case.

rbernie : By the way - locally, FN rollmarked BHPs sell for hundreds less than Browning marked units. They can really represent a good bargain, if one was inclined to look for such things.

Not if you remove them when refinishing

There is a bit of controversy about removing them. Everything I have read is that it is a gray area. It has to be there to be imported but it is unclear if you can remove it after importation. Even if done well and properly it will still show and the gun will be worth less than one without it from the start.

Again you seem to have an issue with the fact that not everyone thinks the Israeli Hi powers are such a great deal. I honestly have to ask is your ego so tied to the guns you own that you are unable to see another point of view besides your own?

 

[kentucky_smith]

Why is this even still a discussion? Let it go guys or get a room.

 

[rellascout]

Why is this even still a discussion? Let it go guys or get a room.

Discussion is what the site is all about isn't it?

I love a good debate and think the opinions being presented on both sides have some degree of merit...

If you do not think they discussion is worth while why comment?

 

[HorseSoldier]

Here are 2 auctions for commercial USA Browning Hp, with out import marks and they are not police surplus.

No such thing. They're all imported and all are Belgian or Belgian/Portuguese manufacture (not counting the Hungarian and Filipino knock offs).

 

[rellascout]

No such thing. They're all imported and all are Belgian or Belgian/Portuguese manufacture (not counting the Hungarian and Filipino knock offs).

He is referring to importation marks like PW Arms has to place on surplus guns like this.




For commerical BHPs the importation mark is the Morgan, Utah Montreal, QB or St Louis, MO rollmark placed there at the factory. IIRC the FN rollmark has Columbia, SC or Fredericksburg, VA.

 

[rbernie]

If you do not think they discussion is worth while why comment?

So long as the tenor and content remains appropriate for THR, there is no restriction on posting. If someone doesn't want to read a thread or finds it wearisome - nobody is forcing interaction.

Inclusion and tolerance are High Road behaviors. Acting like an unofficial hallway monitor is not.

 

[KodiakBeer]

Wise or unwise the market is clear. The FN guns sell for less.

Which is why I buy them. If others want to pay a 40% premium for an identical pistol with a Browning billboard on the slide, I'll leave it to them.

There is a bit of controversy about removing them.

There is no controversy. Refinishers remove these routinely.

Again you seem to have an issue with the fact that not everyone things the Israeli Hi powers are such a great deal. I honestly have to ask is your ego so tied to the guns you own that you are unable to see another point of view besides your own?

It is the lack of ego that dictates the purchase. I don't pay premiums for "designer" products. I don't care if my FN produced pistol says "Browning" or "Fabrique Nationale" on the slide.

My Israeli Hi Power is one of 25 or so firearms that I currently own. My handguns range from Colts and Kimbers down to lowly ComBloc and Argentine pieces. The values range from 2K+ down to $189, but they all have one thing in common; they are accurate, functional and reliable.
The ones that aren't accurate, functional and reliable get traded away rather quickly.
The ones that make the cut end up on the "keeper" list and I don't care about market value or whose logo is inscribed on the slide.

 

[rellascout]

Which is why I buy them. If others want to pay a 40% premium for an identical pistol with a Browning billboard on the slide, I'll leave it to them.

I believe you are not understanding what I am saying. Commercial FN guns sell for much less than Commercial Browning marked guns. That is an apples to apples comparison and the FN always sells for less. The FN guns you are talking about are surplus guns so of course they are sold for less because they are surplus guns regardless of roll mark. These happen to be FN marked.

The ego point is not about brand or billboards. Its about the idea that "value" is subjective. You do not see enough value in a nice blued gun over a surplus gun with handling marks but other people do. You insult and call these people ignorant and unwise. Maybe they simply value different things then you do.

When you speak about the FN surplus guns you speak as if everyone should see it the same way you do. You equate your sense of value to an objective standard when in reality it is simply a subjective judgment based on subjective criteria. It your money so I am glad that you take such care and consideration in spending it. I commend and respect that. I agree with many of the reasons you like these surplus guns. What I disagree with is that you elevate your subjective criteria for "value" onto other people who might have a completely different subjective criteria.

My point is and has been from the start that your concept of "value" is not universal. You are happy with what you have purchased. Personally I would have been disappointed if I have purchased the gun you received for the price you paid. That does not make it a bad deal but I have gotten better and see better deals all the time based on what I am looking for. As a base gun it is not a MKIII IIRC. As a daily shooter it might be fine but if I want a stock Hi power I want an older one or a Browning Practical simply because they look cool. Again you might not want to pay extra for this look but I might... Are you actually going to argue I am wrong? For anyone who likes their guns to look good the Isreali Hi powers are not a good value. They are too expensive for a gun that you will have to restore and refinish. You are better off with a commercial gun in better condition from the start which can be had for $500 to $600 depending on configuration which is what this thread is attempting to illustrate.

My main issue with you is that you fail to see, recognize or acknowledge that the Israeli HPs are not the only "deal" one can get on a Hi Power. People have shown you over and over again deals which are on par if not better than the deal you got. Yet you continue to point to your $400 surplus as the deal of a century and act like the rest of us are fools for not recognizing your concept of value.....

 

[KodiakBeer]

I believe you are not understanding what I am saying. Commercial FN guns sell for much less than Commercial Browning marked guns.

Which makes them the smart buy.

The ego point is not about brand or billboards. Its about the idea that "value" is subjective.

Umm no, "value" is a balance between cost and quality. If identical guns from the same manufacturer are sold with differing prices based on what logo is etched on the slide, the better "value" is in the gun with lower cost.

You do not see enough value in a nice blued gun over a surplus gun with handling marks but other people do.

I do see greater value in the nice blued gun, but not enough to pay double the cost. For the $645 blued gun in the OP, you could get almost two epoxy finished guns of the same age. That's value! Of course, it's only "shooter" value, but most people are looking for shooters, not safe queens.

One of these days I'll buy a new high end commercial Hi Power with target sights and send it to Action Works for all the bells and whistles. It will not be good value for money, but merely an indulgence. It'll spend most of its life in the safe. If I ever sell it, I won't expect to recoup the cost.

For every day hammering of steel plates and spinners, pumpkins, beer cans and for use as a "car gun" (practical uses), I'll stick with the Izzy or the Argy (clone) or some other pistol. These are guns I can use, and they are good value.

 

[rellascout]

Umm no, "value" is a balance between cost and quality. If identical guns from the same manufacturer are sold with differing prices based on what logo is etched on the slide, the better "value" is in the gun with lower cost.

If we were talking about identical guns then you could argue that the lower cost gun is the better value but we are not talking about identical guns. The condition of the gun you bought is very different then the ones I have bought. The one you bought maybe very different that other Israeli guns being sold at the very same price.

The mistake you continue to make is that the reality is that two guns in different condition are worth different prices. Two different guns, the same model like say a Colt 1911, will have very different values based on when it was made. Two BHPs made on the same day on the same line will have a different value after 10 years of shooting and handling depending on the conditions they were use in and kept in. Look in any edition of the blue book of guns. There are % categories which determine price. The lower the % the lower the price.

Are you actually arguing that condition does not matter now? The Israelis were hard on these guns. These were working guns. I am yet to see one which does not show signs of wear. These are not unissued US cop guns. These guns have been road hard and put away wet... it does not make them bad but this is the reality. They are far from pristine.