2 case scenarios for LE

[Thin Black Line]

It has been my experience that COs take a wider latitude on interpretation
than other officers.

Obviously, I would agree that everyone's human. After Katrina in NOLA we
saw just how human LEOs can be along with everyone else. I've always
wondered if anyone did a study after K/NOLA to see which professionals
stayed at their posts and did their jobs in greater numbers: LEOs, fire, EMTs,
doctors, nurses, etc. Online AARs, anyone?

I would agree that there's many stereotypes out there.

 

[El Tejon]

I thought it was 600K?

At least that number sticks in my fuzzy head.

 

[Sergeant Sabre]

And we see on here every day where officers excede that. In fact it seems to be encouraged by many departments.

Ya, whatev'. In the situation you related in which you were stopped, I can't vouch for any "attitude" that some guy may have had. There are officers out there that often come off as being rude. He let you go, didn't he? Maybe you matched the description, maybe you didn't. If you did, he identified you and let you go on your way, that's often good enough. If later there was a reason to suspect you (other than the circumstantial description), they know who you are so whoever is investigating the crime can contact you if needed.

I imagine this discussion would get interesting if we threw Conservation Officer into it:

CO: "Good afternoon, sir."

John Q: "Hello, officer. What can I do for you?"

CO: "I was passing though today --what wonderful weather we're having.
Be a great day to go hunting. Do you hunt?"

JQ: "Yes, sometimes. It's been a while, though."

CO: "We had a report of a runaway/rabid/wounded deer/rabbit/fish near this
address --I need to check your fridge, freezer, and garbage."

John Q: "I've been sitting here reading the paper and nothing like that has
come by."

CO: "Sir, I need you to put down the paper and stand up...."

Now that's seriously far-fetched, in so many ways. CO's can't search anything because there was a runaway/rabid/wounded deer/rabbit/fish (a runaway fish???) near your address. That's not probable cause for a search, and no judge would issue a warrant for that. (Your trash, however, if out by the road for pick-up, is abandoned and can be gone-through)

I would agree that there's many stereotypes out there.

That's right, for sure. There are bad cops out there, for sure as well. There are some poorly trained cops out there, too, that may make mistakes based on their poor training. Most of us, however, are pretty serious about our chosen profession, and the responsibilities that come with it.

Those that stereotype cops into a nameless, faceless, molithic entity bent of incarcerating everybody by any means necessary are not so different from those that stereotype "gun-nuts" as beer-swilling camouflage-wearing anarchist nit-wits that want to see a machine gun on every street corner. Both are so far off-base as to be infuriating, and both stereotypes are born from a lack of real knowledge and familiarity, and a fear and hatred of the unkown fueled by incomplete sensationalist information provided by private media.

 

[TCB in TN]

El Tejon, I actually took a day off. I usually have a class full of students looking at me, and don't have enough time to argue over anything except whether the answer to question # 7 was fair or not.

Art,
I have family and friends in the profession and have a great deal of respect for those who do it right, but as I have said on numerous occasions I also know several officers who scare the crap out of me, and based on the comments from my friends and family in the business they have some concerns as well. And as for whether they are as bad as they are painted on here, well. Locally we have had several Officers fired for stalking, reprimanded for a variety of things including one tipping off his crook brother about an investigation into certain illegal activities. Not to mention that several officers I know have a bit of a chemical dependency problem. In the next town over an officer was recently fired, arrested, and has been convicted for theft, running a drug distribution operation, and attempted murder. The same department was involved in a shooting a couple years ago that made national news. They shot the families dog, that was traveling through. Not that it was ALL their fault, but they certainly didn't handle it very well. They have plenty of dirty laundry, that is common knowledge, and I am sure plenty more waiting to be aired. And along with what I mentioned above there are plenty of other things that have happened locally that I am sure no one on here really wants to hear about, so as much as I would like to think that 99% of ALL LEO's are great, and only want to do a good job, I can't quite buy that number. I do appreciate the hard work so many LEO's do. I do plan to cooperate and help them all I can, but not at the expense of my life, my liberty, etc.

 

[ReadyAndVigilant]

Hey Sgt. Sabre -- you ever have someone try to citizen's arrest you or try to use force against you in such a way as the suspect was trying to impose some type of imagined "legality" he thought he possessed? Seems like this might be a line of BS some paramilitary "militia" may try to pull. God knows our state has them.

Also, was wondering if you're in the MSP, local/county?

 

[Max Beep]

I'm not a cop myself, but I know a bunch and they're all good guys. I would tend to assume that if a cop approaches me and is asking me questions there is a reason behind it. For instance I'm sitting in my yard and he wants to see some ID. It could be there has been a report of someone resembling me breaking into houses or something. By cooperating with the officer you may find out something that is going on in your neighborhood that you should be aware of or you may find out you have information, like that guy you just saw walk up the street that can help the officer catch a bad guy. I'd take a chill pill. While I'm sure there are some bad apples, 99.9 are good guys doing a tough job..

 

[mek42]

CO's can't search anything because there was a runaway/rabid/wounded deer/rabbit/fish (a runaway fish???) near your address. That's not probable cause for a search,

I always thought that the pesky 4th amendment did not apply to conservation officers?

 

[brerrabbit]

As far as I know, regardless of state laws to the contrary, public officials have absolutely no expectation of privacy in the execution of their duties. In fact, they should behave as if the camera is on them all the time. Tape all you want. If they arrest you for taping them, they are the ones that have to justify stopping you from taping them in federal court where the state laws against do not apply. After all, what do the cops have to fear from being recorded if they are not doing something wrong?

As far as far as asking the policeman to to state his business or leave my property, I am a jerk. I will immediately ask him if I am under arrest if he does not explain his business if I find it questionable. If I am not under arrest and he refuses to leave or tell me his business, I will tell him that I am going to get my shottie to remove him from my property and start to get it. That leaves him to decide the next course of action.

Again the wrong course of action will result in a federal lawsuit. The officer must at that point either arrest me, leave, or tell me his business. If I am arrested, they are wide open for a title 18 or title 42 civil rights violation, where they get to explain why they did not tell me their business or leave in front of a jury.

Life for me is not really that rough in the truest sense though. My local law enforcement is a sheriff and about 20 deputies. The sheriff is elected so the deputies do not get to act like JBT's without causing the sheriff problems at election time. And in the truest sense, they are all very polite and professional.

 

[Thin Black Line]

I always thought that the pesky 4th amendment did not apply to conservation officers?

This was the "wide latitude" thing I mentioned.....

 

[Sergeant Sabre]

I always thought that the pesky 4th amendment did not apply to conservation officers?

Completely untrue.

As we discuss this, keep in mind that a "search", in terms of the Fourth Amendment, is strictly defined by our courts. To have a "search", there must be 1) an intrusion into a reasonable expectation of privacy, and 2) government action. If either of 1 or 2 do not exist, there is no search.

What has probably gotten you, and others, confused, is the "open fields" doctrine. This is the result of a multitude of court rulings that establish case-law concerning privacy inside the curtlidge of the home vs. outside the curtlidge of the home, but still on your taxable property. For legal purposes, "curtlidge" is defined as the area in the immediate vicinity of the home in which the owner / family spends its day-to-day activities.

Th open fields doctrine states that one does not have a reasonable expectation of privacy on areas of your property that is outside the curtlidge of the home. CO's therefore can go ahead and enter said property to take a look around. As can any member of the general public until told to leave. So if they see you goose hunting on your 200 acre corn field, they can come talk to you. You don't have a reasonable expectation of privacy in that field and the CO's action is not a search.

In one of the landmark cases for the open fields doctrine (I guess I could look up the case name if you really, really want), a private citizen was traversing a section of private wooded area when they a happened upon a few large pieces of construction equipment that seemed very out of place. Mentioning this to the police, officers entered the property and identified the equipment as stolen. Their actions were challenged in court on Fourth Amendment grounds, and it was found that the offender had no reasonable expectation of privacy in the outlying areas of land that he owned.

The open fields doctrine, however, shall not be construed to remove a reasonable expectation of privacy from the inside of a property owner's out-buildings.

 

[Thin Black Line]

For legal purposes, "curtlidge" is defined as the area in the immediate vicinity of the home in which the owner / family spends its day-to-day activities.....
Th open fields doctrine states that one does not have a reasonable expectation of privacy on areas of your property that is outside the curtlidge of the home.

OK, good because my "day-to-day" family activities involve all of my 25 acres
given my daily running track, nature trails, wood-cutting, and the accompanying
of my kids across the north 10 to their school.

Here's a twist --what if the property is acrage that is commerically zoned such
as a site where construction vehicles are stored in the open between jobs,
gravel is accumulated, etc? (BTW, no, this is not mine.)

Another twist: What if acrage is used it for religious practices such as
Native Americans, Druids, etc? Likewise, I have my Judeo-Christian Moses
and John the Baptist moments where I need to go away from my house and
talk to God. I'm going to be very perturbed should a CO pick that as his time
to traipse his unclean pork-consuming gullet across my path.

 

[Sergeant Sabre]

Here's a twist --what if the property is acrage that is commerically zoned such
as a site where construction vehicles are stored in the open between jobs,
gravel is accumulated, etc? (BTW, no, this is not mine.)

Ummmm, I dunno. My initial thought is that the courts would hold that you don't have a reasonable expectation of privacy out in the open . (I'd think they'd also hold that, although you run and chop wood on your property, you don't have a reasonable expectation of privacy on 25 acres of outlying property. That doesn't mean you can't tell somebody to get off of it, though). In the case I posted above, if the construction equipment was not stolen then the officer investigating it wouldn't have identified it as stolen, and then we're done with it.

Another twist: What if acrage is used it for religious practices such as
Native Americans, Druids, etc? Likewise, I have my Judeo-Christian Moses
and John the Baptist moments where I need to go away from my house and
talk to God. I'm going to be very perturbed should a CO pick that as his time
to traipse his unclean pork-consuming gullet across my path.

Ya, I dunno. I don't think that the courts would rule that there is suddenly a reasonable expectation of privacy on the property because you have a "John the Baptist moment". Just ask the CO to leave.

 

[Correia]

If he refuses my request do I have a legal right to take him into custody under citizens arrest and is there limitations on what type of force I can use to subdo him?

Yeah, good luck with that...

 

[brufener]

If he does NOT have that legal right what can I do to exercise my rights to make him leave.
If he refuses my request do I have a legal right to take him into custody under citizens arrest and is there limitations on what type of force I can use to subdo him?

I'm surprised nobody has posted this. Citizen's arrest is limited (in most states) to felonies that the citizen observed. Trespassing (in most states) is a misdemeanor, not a felony. Hence you can't "citizen's arrest" anybody for trespassing.

 

[Sergeant Sabre]

I'm surprised nobody has posted this. Citizen's arrest is limited (in most states) to felonies that the citizen observed. Trespassing (in most states) is a misdemeanor, not a felony. Hence you can't "citizen's arrest" anybody for trespassing.

Michigan law allows a private citizen to arrest for felonies and misdemeanors punishable for 93 or more days of jail. Trespassing is a 30-day misdemeanor. Even the police don't have the authority to arrest for a 30-day misdemeanor that isn't committed in their presence.

 

[Spartacus451]

Quote:
If he refuses my request do I have a legal right to take him into custody under citizens arrest and is there limitations on what type of force I can use to subdo him?

Yeah, good luck with that...

He is really asking the wrong questions. Legal rights are meaningless, just looks at the 2nd. All you should care about is what you can get away with and what he can get away with.

 

[jpk1md]

Deleted as Dupe

 

[jpk1md]

The opening encounter and YOUR attitude or lack therof usually helps to set the tone of the remainder of your encounter with John Q Law.

Make Jonny Laws job easy and put him/her at ease and life tends to go much better for all parties involved.....thats reality folks.

The few times I've been pulled over I shut off the car, stereo etc and wait with my hands on wheel at 10/2 for the officer to approach and assess the situation.

Using this approach I've been provided a lot of slack and only 2 tickets.

Respect is a 2 way street folks and you get what you give.....usually at least. If you get the opportunity and you can make a Cop laugh then things usually make a turn for the better...they are people too and unfortunately they deal with a lot a BG's.

With that said you can usually tell how things are going to go down within the first 30 seconds.

I grew up with a couple of guys that were not nice people.....they unfortunately became LEO's......we all knew that they would either become LEO's or Criminals...its a power thing....thankfully people like that are by far the exception and not the norm.

Of course this is during normal life.....not sure that this would apply during a Katrina event and it might be a play it by ear kinda scenario with other options on the table. I hope never to be put in a situation like that.

 

[Thin Black Line]

I grew up with a couple of guys that were not nice people.....they unfortunately became LEO's......we all knew that they would either become LEO's or Criminals...its a power thing....thankfully people like that are by far the exception and not the norm.

LOL, did we grow up in the same town?

If he refuses my request do I have a legal right to take him into custody under citizens arrest and is there limitations on what type of force I can use to subdo him?

Yeah, good luck with that...

This reminds me of the time when my uncle had the CO try some bogus open
fields search on his private property and held him until an officer from another
LEA came and removed him --the CO, not my uncle

Guess it just depends if there is still a semblance of the rule of law, a respect
for private property, etc in your local area. There was still some of that where
we lived at that time.

 

[rhinov]

First let me say some of the posters on this thread have been a "little" harsh on the person who started this thread. Everybody should know that you can't conduct a citizens arrest on a police officer. That's silly. However, most of the questions asked are reasonable and I have wondered about some of them myself. I am polite and curtious to everybody I come into contact with even if I have had a bad day. I make it a point to do this as best I can and I expect a police officer to do the same. Anybody who has a job that requires them to have contact with the public should be polite all the time. I think having some apprehension and suspicion when dealing with the governments appointed law enforcer is warranted especially in todays america. I also do not give somebody a blank check when it comes to respect just because of the job or career that they chose. I will approach any encounter with someone respectfully from the start, it is then up to them wether or not they get to keep my respect for them. I will also do everything I can to make sure my rights are respected. Once again in as polite a way as possible. I hope that any law enforcement officers who read this post will understand that the outcome of the situation has a lot to do with how they approach it from the begining, just as the outcome is dependent on the cordialness of the other party involved. I have also learned from this thread that supporting gun ownership does not necessarily mean supporting freedom. Remember if you lose your guns you lose your freedoms and if you lose or give up your freedoms you lose you guns.

 

[win71]

Quote:
If he refuses my request do I have a legal right to take him into custody under citizens arrest and is there limitations on what type of force I can use to subdo him?

You better really know what you're doing now. Typically a bogus attempted citizens arrest on a peace officer will result in a non bogus arrest for delaying/resisting an officer in the performance of his duties. A charge that if convicted is usually not looked at too favorably by the court.