2 dead students, police refused assistance

[1911Tuner]

perhaps advising him of the potential consequences - all without charges or arrest; which might have been enough to make him think twice about it.

I'd tend to think that this would have had an effect only if he weren't serious about his plans...or simply bluffing the couple in order to have a few chuckles at their expense. A man who's already made up his mind to kill isn't going to be phased by any implied legal consequences over stalking or communicating threats. He's already far beyond that.

El T has probably nailed it again...as usual. The prevailing attitude that the police are there to protect us as individuals has been fostered and taught by so many people for so long, that many of us have actually come to accept it and believe it...sometimes with tragic results.

The police cannot protect anyone, except incidentally and occasionally. They are under no legal or moral obligation to do so...though most will if they happen to be on the scene...and this is probably as it should be. Our care and protection is the job of our mothers, and once we're able to fend for ourselves...we should take full responsibility for that. We are not children, after all. To feel that it's someone else's responsibility to guide and protect us throughout our lives is frankly, an unacceptable notion. It not only destroys that in us which makes us strong...it hands too much power over our lives to other people...people who...as observed earlier...have no stake in the ultimate outcome.

The assignment of the policemen is to enforce the law...to serve ad protect the community as a whole. Not individuals. Your safety is your responsibility.
See to it...before it's too late.

 

[willbrink]

Harriett said. "He made a decision he thought was the most appropriate." Which = police have no plan to take no accountability over this. I don’t know if their family could bring suit against them, but my understanding is legal precedence says no. Anyone?

 

[Baba Louie]

I don’t know if their family could bring suit against them, but my understanding is legal precedence says no. Anyone?

Oh they could bring suit against them and pay their attorneys fees, but to no financial avail or "specific performance" and it certainly won't bring anyone back or lessen the parent's pain.
And as human beings you KNOW the cops in question must feel horrible or hope they at least have some feelings about the inadequacy of the system at times... I'd bet they do and feel some angst at their role in this tragedy.

Unfortunately, it's not the first time and it won't be the last time such an incident occurs. In these cases the Cops are damned if they do and damned if they don't.

I really dislike stories with sad endings like this.

 

[joab]

There is no law state or federal that prevented these two from being armed nor was their ability to defend themselves in their own home hindered in any way.
As a matter of fact the State of Florida passed a law making it a great deal easier to do just that

The perp made threats to kill the victim, said he'd just bought a gun (to kill him), was a former boyfriend to one of the victims (domestic violence?). While I am no big fan of the Lautenberg Amendment, why couldn't someone connect the dots and use the law to do what we all hate...take the guy's gun away for starters

There are no dots to connect
If there was no RO there is no dot to stop him from buying the gun, if there is no RO there is no reason to take his gun away
By law Florida can not maintain records of gun purchases

However, one thing that confuses me about this story is why couldn't the police get the guy on stalking charges?

They could have if they could have talked the victims into filing the RO, that's why they push it
Taking responsibility for your own safety does not always mean shooting the bastard

Cosmoline you don't find it, I'll say ludicrous but I want to type ***** insane, that they advise her to change her cell phone # and request a restraining order, when she's expecting impending violent death?

That statement assumes that the deputy did not advise her to do so just because the reporter did not say that he did.
From my association with the Seminole County SO that is about the same as assuming that the deputy did not drive to the house because there was no mention of a car in the article

Apparently the harassment and threats had been going on for about a month an RO that night would have made him a very good candidate for arrest or at the very least an interview
But blaming the victims for inaction is not as popular as trying to blame cops

 

[El Tejon]

1911, I agree, sometimes I think the gun culture has Stockholm Syndrome.

 

[MASTEROFMALICE]

I don't see why everyone seems to think the police can't protect everyone. Sure we can! It's simply a minor issue of manpower. All we need are 150,000,000 police officers to follow around the OTHER 150,000,000 people in this country. That'd give a 1/1 ratio

According to the Bureau of Justice Statistics we only have 663,535 so far throughout the contry watching the other 299,336,465 people which gives us a 451+/1 ratio, this makes things a little more difficult. Also take into account that at any given time less than a quarter of those cops are actually on duty we start to see some real problems.

 

[El Tejon]

As your new Senator I propose legislation that will make it a crime to be out of arm's reach of a police offier.

Vote Badger in '08!

 

[Dave in PA]

MOM, if you'll be so kind as to deputize me, and grant me power to carry my sidearm of choice nationwide, I'll be glad to watch over myself 24/7, thus reducing the work load somewhat.

(above comment made mostly tongue in cheek)

 

[MASTEROFMALICE]

Consider it done, Dave. Feel free to carry your firearm where ever you want and if any other cops give you any lip tell them to see me about it.

Your badge is in the mail.

 

[ilbob]

Way too many people think Dragnet and Adam 12 reflect how LE works in real life. It doesn't.

The primary role of LE is protection of government.

You will not see a cop guarding Joe Citizen unless there is some overriding government interest. You routinely see them guarding government buildings and politicians.

If you don't pay your taxes, they are the guys that will come and take your property.

If government wants something you have, and you wish to keep it, these are the guys who will come and take it from you.

If government wants more revenue, they will set up roadblocks and look for anything they can cite you for.

If government wants you cowed, they are the guys that are sent out to do it.

Anything else they do is secondary. As far as crime against Joe Citizen, their role is primarily to take reports after the crime occurred, and go arrest the guy who done it.

Once you understand the way things really are, you can take whatever effective action is necessary in your particular case to deal with protecting yourself. The most effective steps you can take are often very low cost or even free.

For women, one of the most important things seems to be selection of mating partners. Some women seem to be attracted to scum of the earth. They are then shocked when the scum turns on them. They should not be surprised, but in fact often go back to the same scum. If parents spent a little more time explaining these things to their daughters, there would be a whole lot less of these kind of incidents, and that is completely free of charge.

 

[FieroCDSP]

It's a shame. I can only say that if it were me that had recieved the threats, I'd be armed the next few days at least. My friends also. You have to believe the cops involved have already wondered if there were anything else they could have done within their duties. The unfortunate fact that it takes more serious evidence than theft and threats to arrest someone who says they're going to kill someone is countered by the fact that without that requirement, you're getting into thought-crime territory. It wouldn't have stopped him, as it seems he was fairly determined. A night in jail and he'd be back out, hotter than before.

We are responsible for our own safety is the lesson here.

 

[Deanimator]

2. Restraining orders are about as worthless as those gun free zone signs. Beyond establishing a legal trail, they are a waste of time. If the person who needs to be restrained is going to do you harm, a piece of paper is not going to slow him down.

The SOLE worth of a restraining order is as LEGAL documentation of WHY you shot the guy in the face when he showed up in violation of it.

Without a loaded gun to enforce it, any order of protection might just as well be printed on toilet paper. If you think the police are going to be the ones holding the gun, you might just as well shoot YOURSELF. Whether that's because of malice, incompetence or sheer physical impossibility, that's the way things are. Deal with that simple fact or be prepared to be dealt WITH by whoever wants to do you harm. I learned that lesson around 1979 and have NEVER forgotten it.

 

[Cmdr. Gravez0r]

I'm sure it differes from State to State but in South Carolina in is illegal to threaten someone electronicllay, i.e. by phone or e-mail.

 

[joab]

It's illegal here also
But it takes more than someone saying you did to make it so

If the cop didn't see it or hear it he has no grounds to arrest
The gir could have filed a complaint for the state or district attorney to decide if it warranted arrest or investigation

In Florida violating an RO in some cases is a felony so it would certainly have helped in this case
Repeatedly harassing and stalking after an RO has been served is a ten year felony, that would have also helped in this case

If only the victim had gotten that RO

 

[streicherr]

Q: At the time of the complaint, how do the cops know if she just made the whole thing up to get even when he broke up with her?
A: When she got shot. Too late for the police to do much at that point.

Bet there are thousands of cases like that, or where empty threats are made for every one that gets carried out.

Randy

 

[Aries-]

i think its a bit more of a threat after he hacked her bank account, and sent her a picture of herself covered in bullet holes, along with the threat of "im going to kill you the next time i see you"

hell kids up here in ontario have been arrested for giving a teacher the "yeah ok" *click click* gun finger when they ask something stupid.

ive seen people arrested on the spot for shouting at someone causeing problems around cops for shouting "if you dont get out of my face im gonna kill you !" SLAM the cops are on them and handcuffed.

so the police could have done something about the situation. up here its called uttering death threats. which is a arrestable offence. maybe not down there but who knows i dont have an americans criminal code.

 

[pharmer]

This was a horrific series of events with ALL blame on the perp. That said, the guy should have had a 12 ga handy and got ready when he hit the front door. Soon as he came around back for round 2 (his intententions were plain), a blast of birdshot from 5 yds would have yielded a satisfactory outcome. Joe

 

[Zoogster]

Anyone can claim someone said something threatening. The legal system not taking thier word for it is a good thing.
However it also means that you are for the most part on your own in such circumstances unless one suggests we change the law so that accusations warrant arrest or loss of rights without factual evidence or due process.
Numerous people in relationships that break up wrongly accuse the other side of all sorts of false things in both an attempt to discredit them and just out of some sort of spite or revenge.

So the only real solution here is for the individual to be able to defend themselves. There is no perfect answer in a free society.
Police are not bodyguards. People must rely on themselves and friends and family for immediate assistance.

Be careful who you date. That bad side that some find attractive might end up being something you have to deal with directed at you later on. If they say or do spiteful things to others they dislike or they have in the past, chances are they more than likely would do the same with you if you broke up down the road.
I think many people fail to realize that.

 

[MechAg94]

I had a manager once who had employees make threatening statements toward that manager. He had a police sit outside the plant for a couple days on two occasions after the threats were made.

 

[MechAg94]

I haven't read this entire thread and maybe this has been mentioned, but this event really seems inconsistent with other stories we see on this site.

If a student had drawn a picture of a handgun; If someone called in a tip that a student had a list of people he wanted to kill; if someone said the guy was carrying a gun near a classroom; about 400 police would have descended on the area and put it in lock-down and arrested the person who made so-called threat. I exaggerate slightly, but the level of response is completely different. If these were junior high school students, would the attitude have been the same?

I understand you have to see to your own safety, but I am still a bit puzzled by the response. I guess the domestic violence stuff mentioned earlier is right. I guess the real answer is that many of the school incidents are way overblown.

 

[10 Ring Tao]

Seems more than germane:

"Why do you have a gun?"

"Because a cop is too heavy to carry around."

 

[Invisible Swordsman]

The time frame from reported threat to action in this incident is fairly short.

Roughly three hours before they died, Tiffany Barwick and Michael Ruschak asked Seminole County deputy sheriffs for protection from the man they feared would kill them.

Sheriff's records show that Barwick, 19, first called deputies at 11:30 a.m. Monday alleging that Allred had tapped into her Bank of America account and withdrawn money without her permission.

The first report is for theft, a property crime. In most jurisdictions the prosecutor wants copies of bank records for a paper trail to the suspect before authorizing an arrest warrant. It often takes several days to get those records. There won't be an arrest without them.

At 7:09 p.m. she told another deputy that Allred just sent Ruschak, 22, a message threatening his life and that he had recently purchased a gun. She pleaded with the deputy to "lock him [Allred] up."

In Ohio police could make a warrantless arrest based on these threats, assuming enough evidence to support the charge, and if they can find the suspect. As others have noted, the legal picture varies from state to state depending on laws and court decisions.

Investigators said gunfire broke out about 10:30 p.m. during a party at Ruschak's home.

From the time the threats were first reported to the police until the crime was less than 3 1/2 hours. Even if the whole department had dropped everything else they were doing and did not respond to any other calls, there would be no guarantee they could even locate the suspect before he followed through on his threats. Of course, they cannot stop responding to everything else.

As has been amply repeated, we are responsible for our own safety.

 

[Werewolf]

The primary role of LE is protection of government.

You will not see a cop guarding Joe Citizen unless there is some overriding government interest. You routinely see them guarding government buildings and politicians.

If you don't pay your taxes, they are the guys that will come and take your property.

If government wants something you have, and you wish to keep it, these are the guys who will come and take it from you.

If government wants more revenue, they will set up roadblocks and look for anything they can cite you for...

Amen Brother!

The police are agents OF the state, BY the state and FOR the state.​

They care not for the citizen but for their masters who sign their paychecks. Think Katrina for an example of just how much the cops care about us. Mass desertions, looting stores, slamming little ole ladies up agains the wall to disarm her...

Walked into a county courthouse lately? I have and it makes the JBT's at airports look like pussy cats in comparison. The setup at the courthouse makes it pretty obvious we the citizen are all considered terrorists until we prove otherwise. Better not grumble while you're takin off your shoes and belt because the metal detector is set to highest sensitivity - that's attitude - givin a cop attitude is step one to getting tossed into the clink.

Yep - police presence sure makes me feel safer.

 

[MASTEROFMALICE]

Fear not Werewolf. If you're going to court for a crime you committed you can always invoke "situational authority." After all, if it wasn't for you there wouldn't be a court case, right?

Out of everyone here, you are easily among the most cop-slamming dude here. Do me a favor, if you ever find yourself in serious need of a police officer, medic, or firefighter......don't call. It would be beneath you to ask for a government-funded firetruck to help put out your house.

Besides, the firemen always come after the fire has started and then use excessive amounts of water to quell the blaze. Better you take care of it yourself.

 

[Werewolf]

You know Master - if I were a cop I'm not sure that I'd want to be known as the Master of Malice. But then as a cop you're probably all about Malice aren't you?

I have no problem with firefighters - they do a tough job and everytime they get called to duty they ACTUALLY are putting their lives in danger. They save lives at risk of their own. Good thing for us they aren't as ate up with the notion of firefighter safey as cops are with officer safety or every fire they showed up at would end with the property being totally burned down and the FD there only to clean up the mess.

Rest assured if I ever do need a cop I'll pray that the one that shows up isn't a Master of Malice.