2 Pit Bull attacks in my area last month...legal and "technical" advice required...

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saturno_v

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A friend of mine that lives half mile from me, last month has been attacked by a couple of Pitbulls while walking his dogs..the imprudent owner let the dogs out in his property without fence...

My friend (he doen't carry handguns) got 10 stitches in his leg..one of his dog got stitches as well.....thankfully people on the road stopped their cars to help him stave off the attacking pitbulls..it could have been much worse...

Couple of weeks ago an other attack from another pitbull not far away from here...a woman got bitten hard and her poodle got killed..

I have two questions:

1) As a CCW holder am I legally authorized to use deadly force against an animal that threat my dog and my own safety??

2) My regular carry is a .40 full size handgun, but my "light dress" carry (for example when I'm in short and T-shirt walking my canine friend) is a Kel-Tec P-11 in 9 mm (loaded with Remington UMC 115 gr HP)

Is a 9 mm HP round out of a short barrel like the P-11 fully adequate against an enraged aggressive dog like a Pit Bull, a Rottweiler, etc...?? As many of you know, a pumped up aggressive animal could be very resilient to pain..he has to "realize" he is dead before stopping attacking you..... Any of you had any experience against dog attacks??

Comments, opinions or suggestions???

Thanks!!
 
1. Yes
2. Bullet placement is everything, just like any other situation. If you shoot a dog anywhere in head, neck, upper body so that it gets to the lungs, he is done for with a 9mm.

FWIW if I was walking one of my dogs - the largest of which is 40 lbs maybe - I would not hesitate to use any force necessary to stop an attack against them and I believe that I have an inate right to protect myself from attack whether man or beast.
 
1) As a CCW holder am I legally authorized to use deadly force against an animal that threat my dog and my own safety??
Click to expand...

In NH, yes. Check your state laws (not that you would have any choice, if two of them come after you). You might consider moving somewhere that people raise their dogs better... if you miss and kill someone a few blocks away there could be complaints.
 
another option is to carry pepper spray and /or industrail strength ammonia. Both will stop most dog attacks in a heart beat.( on your dog, a dog attacks you, shoot )
 
Its no help to you...but heres what I did when faced with the same situation.

A few miles down the road, my "neighbor" had 3 pit bulls...he would let them run loose, even after being asked nicely to keep them on his property.

I have a mule (you know, 1/2 horse, 1/2 donkey) that REALLY hates dogs...and he never strays far from home. So I left him out...I came home one fine day and had pit bulls scattered all over the place (literally) and 1 VERY proud mule.

I know thats way off topic...but I'm proud of Henry for that...even the ferocious pit bull is NO MATCH for 1000 pounds of pissed off mule.

I have seen that mule run bears out his pasture.
 
+1 on the mule.

I need one, and need to take HIM on walks through the neighborhood.

Depending on your location, a threat to your life is just that.

Your responsibility is to defend your life by whatever means necessary.
survival of the fittest... you know.
 
I wouldn't hesitate to use deadly force on a pit bull or any other dog that would put either myself or any of my family (my dogs and cats included) at risk of injury or death.
A few weeks ago, a local university professor from the local college was attacked by a pitbull while he was walking his dog with his son. His dog almost lost a limb because of the attack.
That being said, I would make sure the attack is imminent and if I couldn't get the dog away, I'd put it down. Most cities have leash laws and if there are dogs attacking people, anybody who would use deadly force to defend themselves from a dog that wasn't leashed, they would have a pretty easy time defending themselves from both criminal and civil suits.
 
"2 Pit Bull attacks in my area last month...legal and "technical" advice required..."

Place yourself between the attacker and the pit bull. Check with your local laws to see if you can shoot someone in defense of the dog.

:neener:
 
I had basically the same thing happen four weekends ago. My nine year old yellow lab was attacked by the neighbor's two pit bulls while I walked her. It was dark, and he opened his front door to let them out in his unfenced yard. They honed in on my dog, and charged. My dog, old as she is, fought back and as many times as I've been told over and over to not get in the middle of a dogfight, reached in like an idiot in an effort to help my dog. Hard to watch my dog get chewed on.

He came out and finally pulled his dogs off. He didn't apologize and was cocky about it, then grabbed his dogs and went inside. One phone call to animal control yielded him an $840 ticket and a warning since his dogs have attacked before. The next offense, I'm told, will be immediate impounds and possible charges. I've heard his dogs have chased a bicyclist and bit a neighbor. Nice, eh?

I was armed that night with a Sig .40, but had very little time to react. If this were to happen again, I'd immediately consider shooting the dogs, but I'm concerned about hitting my dog since they're moving around so much. I guess I'd have to basically have to shoot point blank or do a contact shot. I hate to kill another dog, but my dog and my welfare are worth way more than those two dogs. I now carry pepper spray when I take her out and walk her with my left hand, leaving my strong hand free and available if I need to get to my pistol.
 
If you ever have to shoot a pitbull, make sure you have enough ammo left for the owner coming at you waiving a baseball bat... :D
 
As always, read your state law on self defense.

In general, in states where you are lawfully allowed to defend yourself with a concealed firearm you would be within your rights to shoot a vicious dog that was threatening your safety.

Think of it this way, if you are present and a dog unprovokingly attacks your dog, YOU are in danger. That would be my argument. The situation is complicated because 1) it's hard to shoot one dog in a dog fight and you may end up shooting your own dog because they are entangled and move quickly. You'd have to separate the dogs and you'd likely get bitten. But if you got bitten it is a clear case of self defense. 2) It's hard to show a court which dog provoked the other, unless you were on your own property or had your dog on a leash and the other dog was roaming free.

If a vicious dog were attacking my dog, I would not always shoot the vicious dog. You have to weigh each situation on its own merits.
 
If you got bit as well as your dog getting chewed up you should be able to get 10 to 20 thousand dollars pain and suffering plus punitive if its happened before out of his homeowners insurance without even having to go to court. Most insurance companies will pay for the first dog bite after that they'll drop his insurance unless he gets rid of the dogs.

Go see one of those lawyers.
 
Generally, I carry pepper spray for dogs and a gun for people. Most dogs don't know better and some will just bark at strangers. If a neighbor has a dog that repeatedly threatens you, call the police. A properly raised pitbull is generally very friendly. Unfortunately, because of the machismo associated with the dog, they have become the favorites of gang bangers and wannabe gangbangers.

If the dog is truly going to maul you (as in it does a couple warning snaps), shoot it.
 
Pit Bulls generally don't give "warning snaps". They are infamous for often giving no warning at all before attacking. If one or more come toward you, don't wait for a snap---take defensive action with whatever weapon you have handy---whether it be pepper spray, firearm etc.
 
Pitbulls are a very people-friendly breed, and unless taught that people are targets only rarely attack unprovoked.

The problem comes with other dogs. Pits don't need to be trained to fight. They were bred to fight. They fight because they LIKE to fight. Once they've locked onto another dog, your attempt to break it up brings you into their arena, and at that point, you're a threat.

The other problem is with how some people raise the dogs. Once taught that people are targets, there's no getting them back.

Defensory is spot on. Don't take a chance with a Pit that is obviously on the attack. They don't warn with grab and release "little bites." They grab and lock down...and their bite pressure is ungodly. A 50-pound Pit can snap a man's forearm like a twig. Legal trouble resulting from shooting a Pit in self-defense is temporary. Amputation is permanent.
 
I think it's pretty well covered at this point, but my two cents:

1) In general, if you're in a state/locale where you have a right of self defense (nearly anywhere in the US, and especially rural areas) you should be able to shoot a dog that's threatening to kill your dog, as long as you were legal (not trespassing, etc.) when it started. FYI, the law on point is just as likely to be a specific dog law or nuisance animal law as it is to be the self-defense laws. Of course to really know what it is in your state, you'll have to check your state's laws.

IMHO, if I was in a place that I had a right to be when the attack started, I would not hesitate to shoot the attacking dog.

One caveat for others - many, many parks prohibit any carry, so shooting an attacking dog in a park could put you in an iffy legal situation even if the shoot was otherwise completely justified. A good prosecutor will recognize that there is a legal doctrine of necessity and that the fact you needed to defend yourself/your dog should trigger the doctrine and render invalid a prosecution for carrying in a no-carry area. However, that's not a sure thing.

2) Your 9mm P11 setup is, like most CCW rigs, a compromise. I wouldn't feel the need to change it unless dog attacks are a regular possibility. If they were, I'd go .40 or .45 or .357mag... or stop walking my dog there.

My area (actually about 50 miles east) has had two nasty dog attacks; one case where two people were killed by a roaming pack of dogs that included pit bulls, and another where a horse was killed, and a person severely injured, by a different roaming pack that included pit bulls. In each case I'm certain that shooting in self-defense would have been justified.

I'm in a pretty rural area and haven't thought much about this risk before now. Now I'm going to reconsider whether to be armed any time I'm outside the house. None of the local dogs that I know are vicious, but who's to say there won't be a stray or a new dog I didn't know of that is?
 
Had the unpleasant experience of being mauled by 2 rotweillers a few years ago. They went after my 10yr old daughter first. Luckilly, she got away. I was not so fortunate. Unprovoked attack. Never even saw the dogs before. After the initaial attack I jumped a fence and destroyed my shoulder. Surgery for the rotator cuff and all - a horrible painful experience. Went to court multiple times to get the dogs "declared dangerous". It was the driving force behind me obtaining my pistol permit. After the lawsuit I went on a buying spree. So far a Kimber 45 and a S&W 629 44mag, as well as a Rock RIver AR-15 EOP for long range. If I EVER see them loose again they will die...Legally:evil:.

On a side note my wife was able to get my turkey gun out of the safe and get it to me in my neighbors yard after the attack (the fence I jumped). I went out into the street bleeding, screaming, cursing, safety off and full of malicious intent looking for those dogs. Imagine the surprise when the police arrived and saw me jumping up and down, covered in blood screaming and cursing.
 
take them and raise them right so they're NOT mean at all! :p

I would not hesitate ( i hope) to shoot an animal if it was a deadly threat to me or my family.
 
Since the animals have already attacked someone you should have an easy self defense case. Just please (and I mean please) do not miss if you take a shot at one of those dogs. Crouch down on one knee and fire a flat shot into it's head. You miss and you are toast.
 
Others have covered the legal arena pretty well. I'm going to dispense some "technical" advice.

When a human faces a firearm psychology takes over and affect their behavior. If you actually have to shoot them (God Forbid) the response is (more often than not) to go "oh damn, I've been shot!" and the fight ends, the emergency units get called, and the person shot gets hauled off to the hospital.

Dogs don't work that way.

An attacking dog that's shot seems to think along the lines of "something stung me but I don't see anything" so they forget the injury and they go right back to the attack. If (again, God Forbid) you ever have to shoot a dog you MUST forget about the "one shot stop" fantasy. An attacking dog must be shot repeatedly until it no longer represents a threat (and that usually means dead).
 
What is the best sized mule to get the most stopping power? The bigger stronger mule who is a little slower? Or the smaller mule that can kick and fight more quickly?
 
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