2 replica peacemakers both shoot 2.5 inches left at 25v yards - Why?

[JimGnitecki]

I just found and read a short posting posted last year on what is called the "True West (Magazine) blog", about the Colt peacemaker. It included the following assertion:

"
The revolver was designed for close-quarter fighting. An experienced gunman was considered proficient if he could hit what he was aiming at in a distance of fifteen yards. Since the rifling in the barrel twisted to the left, the bullet would also drift some 30 inches in 300 yards no matter how good the shooter was. Its maximum effective range was 75 yards. At fifty yards it was considered good shooting to group the shots in a six-inch circle. But it could be effective at long range. The Army tested the Peacemaker and found that by allowing for trajectory, the point of aim at 150 yards should be 4 feet above the target and at 200 yards one had to line the sights up 8 feet above the target.
"
The "Since the rifling in the barrel twisted to the left, the bullet would also drift some 30 inches in 300 yards no matter how good the shooter was." caught my eye.

It sounds like a comment by someone not particularly knowledgeable about shooting. Sure, the direction and rate of barrel rifling affects the path of the bullet a BIT, and long distance rifle shooters use ballistic tables that take it into account. But at handgun distances and velocities, I have nver heard it even being discussed.

But it attracted my attention because both of my Cimarron replica Original peacemaker model replica revolvers shoot 2.5 to 3.5 inches to the left, at 25 yards, not matter how carefully I mointor my grip and my trigger finger's contact with the trigger. I have been careful about both the (crappy original) sight alignment, my grip, and my trigger contact ever since I noted the problem, which started with my very first shots out of these 2 revolvers. I have nOT had any problem like this with ANY other of the numerous handguins, revolvers and semiatuos, I have fired over the past 60 years or so.

That list of previously fired revolvers includes a pair of S&W Schofield replicas whose grip shape is at least similar to the Colt Peacemaker, although with a longer reach to the trigger, enforced by a small "beavertail" projection in the Schofield's frame and grips.

both of these revolvers do shoot groups as good as 1.5" to 2" at 25 yards, when I can overcome the sight deficiencies long enough before my eyes get tired.

So, I am wondering WHY the 2.5 to 3.5 inch left of POA at 25 yards.

Any of you forum members who have a lot of experience with Peacemakers: Can you provide some helpful information on why, and how to prevent it?

Did I just get 2 revolvers (about 100 numbers between their 2 serial numbers) with barrels that were screwed on just a BIT too little into the frame? (2.5" to the left COULD be caused by the barrels' "clocking" relative to the frame being turned just. 016" too far clockwise as viewed from the muzzle). I know that an experienced Peacemaker gunsmith would tell me that turning the barrel to correct something like that requires both special skills and special fixtureing and tools, so I hope thta is not the issue. Apparently, you cannot simply bend the front sight by .016", because it will likely then come loose (later if not right away).

Or, is the POI versus POA affected significantly by the specific ammo load? Does it change with different number of grains?

Or??

Jim G

 

[N555]

Have someone else try shooting your guns.
At least they're consistent.

 

[JimGnitecki]

Have someone else try shooting your guns.
At least they're consistent.

Good idea! It might be a little hard though to find someone else at the rnage these days - it's winter here in Alberta, Canada. My range visit a few days ago required me to drive my all-wheel drive Maverick pickup truck through an unplowed and drifted 8" snowfall, and I had to wear 4 layers of clothing to stay warm enough to shoot! Putting electronic earmmuffs on over a Russian style fur winter hat was hard too! But the visit before that one someone else was actually there and cam eot visit me and acted as a spotter, so maybe next visit . . .

Jim G

 

[pbearperry]

If you are not jerking the trigger, the front sight may need to be tweaked a bit. My Ruger Vaquero Bisley in .44 mag shot a few inches to the left. I brought it to a local Gunsmith that test fired it and got the same results.He tweaked the sight and it shoots right down the middle now.

 

[JimGnitecki]

If you are not jerking the trigger, the front sight may need to be tweaked a bit. My Ruger Vaquero Bisley in .44 mag shot a few inches to the left. I brought it to a local Gunsmith that test fired it and got the same results.He tweaked the sight and it shoots right down the middle now.

Yes, I AM pretty sure it is the handguns, not the shooter, as i shoot every other handgun I've owned to POA, and with mdoern handguns that are accurate, I can usually shoot 2" groups at 25 yards and even 3 to 4" groups at 50 yards. Even with these 2 revolvers, my better groups (when my eyes can hold the sight picture long enough with the crappy authentic replaica sights) are both in the 1.5" to 2" range at 25 yards, but always left and low.

HOW did you gunsmith tweak the front sight? I can see filing it down so the POI would be higher, but to move POI rightward did he somehow non-destructively bend it or did he have to replace it with a wider one that he mounted?

Jim G

 

[driz]

Could it be your grip? When my former agency switched pieces I had to go from a Gen 1 Glock 23 .40 to a Gen 4 G 17 9MM . I was happy with the old one but got forced. I loved the improved grip on the 17 and it gripped so naturally. When I walked up to the line I snickered to the audience of guys who’d given up 1911s and big revolvers saying “ watch and learn suckers”. They learned alright and that pack of old cops laughed me into the ground.
I’d gone so far left that some were off the full sized silhouette paper. The good one were in his arm and shoulder. I always qualified shooting like I would in a gunfight, always the first shot on the line, not the best but someplace center mass. With the 17 it was a disaster so next try I slowed it down and better but still horrible. By the time I finally finished the range guy had that sight as far over as it would go without falling off……and I still had to be careful as I did until we switched yet again . We qualified 4 x a year and for 5 more years and nothing changed for me with that gun.
So there’s my story , same basic platform, better more natural grip that actually felt better and though others were fine I couldn’t shoot for with the thing. Have a couple others try yours and see where they print. At least with yours you can put on other grips unlike the Glocks.

 

[Ohen Cepel]

Barrel may be screwed in too far, or not far enough. That will put the sight off a bit to one side.

 

[Jim Watson]

It might be your grip, it might be the gun.
Of my pair of CAS .44s, the Colt shoots pretty well where it looks, the Cimarron shot left.
I caught my 1911 specialist gunsmith in an experimental mood, he squared the Cimarron's V notch rear sight with a bias to the right and torqued the barrel over a bit. It now centers up but the front sight is visibly out of plumb.

I bought an ASM Schofield on the basis of an article by an Australian shooter who rated them superior to Uberti.
Mine wasn't.
It shot far left, and no tweaking that barrel.
FLG ran a range rod down the barrel, or attempted to, it would not pass.
Yup, podnuh, the barrel was crooked.
After a lot of shipping - I understand it eventually went back to Italy - I got a refund of the wholesale price. Fortunately the receiving dealer had not charged much so I was not out a lot of money.
That was not the only dud, I understand the fiasco nearly put the importer out of business.

 

[Archie]

Not unheard of, but not common.

If you are shooting factory ammo, you might (presuming you can find and afford such) other brands of ammo.
I would also suggest carefully (of course) firing a group at 50 yards. If the sights are not parallel with the bore, that should cause the shift to be roughly twice as much. (Happens more with a cockeyed scope mount on a rifle, but one determines the problem).
If shooting reloads, try a different powder charge or perhaps different powder. The rhythm of different powders (probably has a better noun somewhere) can affect the bullet flight. Some times a different bullet makes a difference - brand, lead or jacketed - orthodox or protestant - never can tell.

If the sights are not perfectly (within reason) aligned, us old guys used to alter the windage adjustment with a fine file, by opening the rear notch on the side one seeks to move the bullet. I understand that's a passé method these days.

 

[pbearperry]

Yes, I AM pretty sure it is the handguns, not the shooter, as i shoot every other handgun I've owned to POA, and with mdoern handguns that are accurate, I can usually shoot 2" groups at 25 yards and even 3 to 4" groups at 50 yards. Even with these 2 revolvers, my better groups (when my eyes can hold the sight picture long enough with the crappy authentic replaica sights) are both in the 1.5" to 2" range at 25 yards, but always left and low.

HOW did you gunsmith tweak the front sight? I can see filing it down so the POI would be higher, but to move POI rightward did he somehow non-destructively bend it or did he have to replace it with a wider one that he mounted?

Jim G

I believe he took heat to the front sight and moved it slightly to the left and reset it.

 

[JimGnitecki]

Not unheard of, but not common.

If you are shooting factory ammo, you might (presuming you can find and afford such) other brands of ammo.
I would also suggest carefully (of course) firing a group at 50 yards. If the sights are not parallel with the bore, that should cause the shift to be roughly twice as much. (Happens more with a cockeyed scope mount on a rifle, but one determines the problem).
If shooting reloads, try a different powder charge or perhaps different powder. The rhythm of different powders (probably has a better noun somewhere) can affect the bullet flight. Some times a different bullet makes a difference - brand, lead or jacketed - orthodox or protestant - never can tell.

If the sights are not perfectly (within reason) aligned, us old guys used to alter the windage adjustment with a fine file, by opening the rear notch on the side one seeks to move the bullet. I understand that's a passé method these days.

Thanks to ALL you guys who have provided input and ideas. Keep them coming!

I hve only fired both of these revolvers with handloads so far. Both range sessions were with Trail Boss powder and 2 slightly different bullet weights (142g and 147g) and shapes (round with flat nose and SWC). The Trail Boss powder loads for the first session were in the 3.2 to 4.1 g range. The 2 different bullet weights made no discernible difference, and the windage and elevation variance did not change notably enough to favour any particular combination. I went with the 4.1g as my choice because it grouped slightly better than the others.

But now, I have been forced to change powders since Trail Boss is no longer available to buy anywhere I coudl find here in Canada. I have switched to TiteGroup and am in the process od loading up cartridges using a different bullet and differing weights of the TiteGroup.

The new bullet is the Hornady 10408, which is a "Frontier" swaged 158g SWC bullet, whose dimensional and weight consistency measures out as really good.

The new powder, TiteGroup, is very different from the Trail Boss. Ball versus flake, same burn rate, but higher density (more weight per cc) so occupies even less volume in the case than the Trail Boss (which was pretty low fill already), and meters even better than the Trail Boss already did out of my Dillon XL750 powder system. TiteGroup supposedly runs quite a bit hotter than Trail Boss. I will load at 32.g to 4.2g, in 0.2g increments (6 different loads).

So, I will see if changing the bullet AND the powder AND the amount of powder have any effect on the windage.

The elevation issue does not bother me TOO much. I am willing to shave down the elevation of the front sight and re-blue once i KNOW I ahve a good long-term load. And I can hold a bit high in the meantime. In fact, since I design and print my own paper targets for load testing, I can produce a set of targets with a deliberately high aim point a couple of inches higher than true center of the target (The target ring simulates an unmarked CAS metal target).

But the left windage is a tougher issue. There is no one local equipped with the tools and fixturing to properly re-torque a SAA barrel. Having a gunsmith replace the front sight with a wider one filed appropriately to center the POI to match POA would be costly. Perhaps silver soldering an extra0.032" layer of material onto the left side of the front sight would center the POI (To get rid of 2.5" left POI at 25 yards would require a 0.016" movement of the front sight OR adding 2 x 0.016" to the left side of the front sight). But I don't know if the silver solder would hold strongly enough.

So, I HOPE that a different load will shoot to POA. If not, then I hope that letting another shooter fire a few groups with the handgun might show thta it is ME, not the revolvers, that need correction. I am more amenable to correction than the revolvers appear to be.

Jim G

 

[JimGnitecki]

I forgot to mention: The rear sight on this model consists merely of a narrow and shallow groove that runs the entire length of the top strap. So, filing the rear "sight" won't work in this case. You definitely shouldn't file the actual top strap on a 357 Magnum revolver.

Jim G

 

[JimGnitecki]

By the way, the triggers on both of these revolvers are EXCELLENT and also low pound pull. I have no trigger weight gauge, but one review of this model mentioned a crisp 2.5 lb trigger pull.

Jim G

 

[mavracer]

Sometimes they take a little tweaking to get spot on. I've had a few over the years that did but for the most part they've been like this. As for spin drift it's real but you ain't gonna see it with a pistol at 25 yards.

 

[Driftwood Johnson]

Howdy

I shoot 2nd Gen Colts in Cowboy Action. We shoot fast, and are not shooting for precision accuracy. I noticed a long time ago that my bullets tend to hit the targets on the left side. So I have always compensated by holding on the right side of the target. I am not one of the super fast shooters in CAS, but I can dump five shots from two revolvers in about 15 or 20 seconds.

Hopefully this photo will show up. Notice the square style rear sight on the 2nd Gen Colt on the left, vs the narrow V groove on the Uberti Cattleman on the right. Most modern replicas of the SAA have the narrow V style rear sight, reminiscent of the 1st Gen Colts. When Colt reintroduced the Colt in 1954, IIRC, they changed the rear sight to the squared off style.

Anyway, I know for a fact that I am shooting to the left because I am not pulling the trigger properly. It is not the gun, it is me. To prevent pulling the shots to the left, a righty must pull the trigger with the pad of the trigger finger under the finger nail. Placing the trigger in the crease under the knuckle feels more comfortable, but is just about guaranteed for a righty to push the bullet impacts to the left.






Here is the rear sight of a 1st Gen Bisley Colt. A very tiny V groove.






P.S. I strongly recommend against bending the front sight. It is silver soldered to the barrel, and bending it can break the solder joint. Trust me on this.

 

[.45Coltguy]

Jim G, didn't we discuss this very thing in another thread? Possibly file down the front sight if needed. Then, work on trigger pull and finger placement on trigger.
These things should help.

 

[JimGnitecki]

Jim G, didn't we discuss this very thing in another thread? Possibly file down the front sight if needed. Then, work on trigger pull and finger placement on trigger.
These things should help.

Yes, we did discuss it in another thread, and I tried in 2 different range sessions working pretty hard on both trigger point of contact and pull, and grip, and got no change in the point of impact. As for filing the front sight, I cna file it down to raise the POI, but I really cannot file its side to change the POI as it is only0.0640" wide to begin with, and I'd need to file off .032" of width to correctly center the shot at POA. That would leave only .032" (i.e. 1/32" inch) of sight width material, which would be too fragile.

I'm going to try a new ladder loading test next, using TiteGroup pwoder in place of my previous Trail Boss, a Hornady pn 10408 158g swaged "Frontier" SWC bullet. I'll try varying the TiteGroup load from 3.2g to 4.2g in 0.2 increments. Hopefully this change might show me if the POI can be affected by load changes.

Jim G

 

[35 Whelen]

My Cimarron's, Uberti's and a New Vaquero used to shoot to the left too. So I bent front sights to compensate, only to discover, after sending hundreds of bullets towards distant targets, that "I", NOT the revolvers, was shooting left. So I learned how to properly shoot these revolvers and guess what happened next? I paid a gunsmith to replace the front sight on my Cimarron. The Uberti was/is a beater so I replaced it myself. Straightened the front sight on the Ruger and sold it.

Look at the placement of the trigger on the Colt and Uberti-



It's left of center in the trigger guard. My theory-

Because of the location of the trigger, the index finger of a right handed shooter is somewhat "pushing" the trigger to the left. So the sear breaks, the hammer falls, the bullet begins its trip down the barrel causing the revolver to recoil and as the barrel rises, the revolver is being pushed slightly to the left due to the pressure still being applied to the trigger by the index finger. That's my theory, take it or leave it.

I hunt with my SA revolvers and found that to shoot them effectively out to 75 yds., I MUST align the barrel with my forearm. Doing so rotates the grip in my hand so that recoil is directed straight back into the palm, which I speculate helps the revolver recoil "straight". Another factor which is all but unheard of except among hard-core handgun silhouette shooters is known as follow through. This basically mean holding the trigger back to its limit even after the barrel has dropped after recoil. I can't explain how or why this works, but have found that when my shooting is not as it should be, it's almost always because I'm not following through.

David Bradshaw, a very well known handgun silhouette competitor described it as follows- Follow through----think flintlock. Squeeze continues after hammer fall, until the bullet is beyond the muzzle. Follow through is shorter in rapid fire, yet always longer than LOCK TIME + BARREL TIME. You cannot own your bullet without FOLLOW THROUGH.

So, the above is not doctrine, but it is what enables me to keep my shots, fired from field positions, in palm-size groups on my 75 yd. steel targets. Your mileage may vary. Just don't start bending sights until you've exhausted all other options.

Howdy

I shoot 2nd Gen Colts in Cowboy Action. We shoot fast, and are not shooting for precision accuracy. I noticed a long time ago that my bullets tend to hit the targets on the left side. So I have always compensated by holding on the right side of the target. I am not one of the super fast shooters in CAS, but I can dump five shots from two revolvers in about 15 or 20 seconds.

Hopefully this photo will show up. Notice the square style rear sight on the 2nd Gen Colt on the left, vs the narrow V groove on the Uberti Cattleman on the right. Most modern replicas of the SAA have the narrow V style rear sight, reminiscent of the 1st Gen Colts. When Colt reintroduced the Colt in 1954, IIRC, they changed the rear sight to the squared off style.

Anyway, I know for a fact that I am shooting to the left because I am not pulling the trigger properly. It is not the gun, it is me. To prevent pulling the shots to the left, a righty must pull the trigger with the pad of the trigger finger under the finger nail. Placing the trigger in the crease under the knuckle feels more comfortable, but is just about guaranteed for a righty to push the bullet impacts to the left.

View attachment 1137405




Here is the rear sight of a 1st Gen Bisley Colt. A very tiny V groove.

View attachment 1137406




P.S. I strongly recommend against bending the front sight. It is silver soldered to the barrel, and bending it can break the solder joint. Trust me on this.

^^^^What he said^^^^

35W

 

[film495]

I'd check our grip and dry fire and see if you get some side to side wobble on your trigger pull. Just hold it a bit lower and watch the end of the barrel. Might be the sights, but if it was me - and it is usually me, new gun, I tend to pull shots to the left and have to get a proper grip on it before things even out.

 

[JimGnitecki]

My Cimarron's, Uberti's and a New Vaquero used to shoot to the left too. So I bent front sights to compensate, only to discover, after sending hundreds of bullets towards distant targets, that "I", NOT the revolvers, was shooting left. So I learned how to properly shoot these revolvers and guess what happened next? I paid a gunsmith to replace the front sight on my Cimarron. The Uberti was/is a beater so I replaced it myself. Straightened the front sight on the Ruger and sold it.

Look at the placement of the trigger on the Colt and Uberti-

View attachment 1137462 View attachment 1137463

It's left of center in the trigger guard. My theory-

Because of the location of the trigger, the index finger of a right handed shooter is somewhat "pushing" the trigger to the left. So the sear breaks, the hammer falls, the bullet begins its trip down the barrel causing the revolver to recoil and as the barrel rises, the revolver is being pushed slightly to the left due to the pressure still being applied to the trigger by the index finger. That's my theory, take it or leave it.

I hunt with my SA revolvers and I found that for me to shoot them effectively out to 75 yds., I find I MUST align the barrel with my forearm. Doing so rotates the grip in my hand so that recoil is directed straight back into the palm, which I speculate helps the revolver recoil "straight". Another factor which is all but unheard of except among hard-core handgun silhouette shooters is known as follow through. This basically mean holding the trigger back to its limit even after the barrel has dropped after recoil. I can't explain how or why this works, but have found that when I'm not shooting as I should be, it's almost always because I'm not following through.

David Bradshaw, a very well known handgun silhouette competitor described it as follows- Follow through----think flintlock. Squeeze continues after hammer fall, until the bullet is beyond the muzzle. Follow through is shorter in rapid fire, yet always longer than LOCK TIME + BARREL TIME. You cannot own your bullet without FOLLOW THROUGH.

So, the above is not doctrine, but it is what enables me to keep my shots, fired from field positions, in palm-size groups on my 75 yd. steel targets. Your mileage may vary. Just don't start bending sights until you've exhausted all other options.



^^^^What he said^^^^

35W

Wow, 35 Whelen! You are abolsutely correct! I would never have though of even LOOKING for that offset in the trigger location, especially since the trigger GUARD is NOT offset - the guard is perfectlyc centered, as this photo of one of my Cimarron replicas clearly shows:



But the trigger itself IS offcenter!

Now I get why maybe I am shooting left consistently.

THANK-YOU for pointing out this important trigger information. I'm wondering why I have not seen this highlighted elsewhere, as I have looked at many reviews of Colt SAA revolvers. Never saw this asymmetry mentioned.

I also just checked all 3 of my other firearms: the lever action replica rifle, my Stoeger double barreled shotgun, and my SIG P210A modern semi-auto handgun. The trigger guard and tirgger both are perfectly symmetric with the firearm frame on all of them.

So, the Colt SAA asymmetry seems to be unique to that model. No wonder so many people other than me find they shoot left if no special measures are taken.

Now, to find a solution:

My normal handgun grip is always a TWO-handed grip. My right hand grips the handgun first, and then my left hand wraps aorund it. Same "combat" grip as the IPSC and IDPS shooters use. And my body position is isosceles rather than Weaver. i.e. symmetric versus non-symmetric.

So, the remedy here is likely going to be to hold a much TIGHTER grip on the gun. The grip is already symmetrical, but probably needs to be tighter to PRESERVE the symmetry during trigger pull and during recoil, due to the asymmetry of the trigger's position and its asymmetric efefct upon the handgun.

I will definitely try that at the next range session.

Jim G

 

[Tallball]

My guess is that holding plowhandle grips is different than holding DA revolver grips, and that is causing the OP to pull left a little.

 

[35 Whelen]

My normal handgun grip is always a TWO-handed grip. My right hand grips the handgun first, and then my left hand wraps aorund it. Same "combat" grip as the IPSC and IDPS shooters use. And my body position is isosceles rather than Weaver. i.e. symmetric versus non-symmetric.

So, the remedy here is likely going to be to hold a much TIGHTER grip on the gun. The grip is already symmetrical, but probably needs to be tighter to PRESERVE the symmetry during trigger pull and during recoil, due to the asymmetry of the trigger's position and its asymmetric efefct upon the handgun.

I will definitely try that at the next range session.

Jim G

Mine is a two-handed grip as well, I guess it could be called a modified Weaver. Aligning the barrel with my forearm means I have to tilt my head in order to align the sights.

You bring up a very important point regarding tightness of grip. Shooting handguns with good accuracy at distance, especially handguns with fairly significant recoil, requires simultaneous focus on multiple areas including sight picture, trigger and grip. I have to be very careful when focusing on the first two because when I do, I tend to loosen my grip, especially the pinky, and if you think about it, in the fulcrum of handgun recoil, the pinky is subject to the greatest force of all the fingers. So it's not just about how tight ones grip is, rather the consistency of the grip. Watch that pinky!

35W

 

[Driftwood Johnson]

The trigger of a Colt (and its replicas) has always been off center in the frame. The same with a Remington which has a very similar mechanism.

Here are the lock parts of a 2nd Gen Colt. Notice the relief at the base of the hammer. The trigger sear will engage one of the cocking notches on the left side of the hammer, that is why the trigger is off center. The bolt ( the curved piece) will engage the round cam on the face of the relieved section of the hammer.






Here is a view looking down into the frame of a 2nd Gen Colt. You can see the trigger is off center in the frame because it needs to engage the cocking notches on the side of the hammer. The split trigger/bolt spring engages the trigger on one side, and the bolt on the other side, because they are offset horizontally from each other.






Notice how the slot for the hammer is off center in the trigger guard.






However, none of this really matters concerning a right handed shooter pushing the point of impact to the left.

Trust me on this. I can push impacts to the left just as easily with a Smith and Wesson double action revolver, which has the trigger perfectly centered in the trigger guard, if I rest the trigger in the crease of my trigger finger under the knuckle, as I can with a single action Colt.

Think about it for a minute. We cannot actually pull the trigger straight back. The only thing our fingers can do is curl. It is impossible for the human hand to pull a trigger straight back, all we can do is minimize the amount we push the trigger by placing the trigger on the pad underneath the fingernail. Try it and you will see.

P.S. You can mess around with different powders all you want, but in the end unless you have proper finger placement on the trigger, none of them will make much difference regarding the point of impact being to the left.

 

[Driftwood Johnson]

My guess is that holding plowhandle grips is different than holding DA revolver grips, and that is causing the OP to pull left a little.

Not really.

Read what I just posted about how I can push my point of impact to the left with a double action S&W just as well as I can with a single action Colt.

It is all about finger placement on the trigger.

As a case in point, if you have any revolvers with adjustable sights, take a look and see how the rear sight is adjusted. Nine out of ten times the sight will be pushed to one side to make up for poor finger placement on the trigger.

With a revolver that has fixed sights, such as the SAA, the problem becomes more obvious because there is no adjustment on the rear sight to make up for poor finger placement.

I have to be very careful when focusing on the first two because when I do, I tend to loosen my grip, especially the pinky, and if you think about it, in the fulcrum of handgun recoil, the pinky is subject to the greatest force of all the fingers. So it's not just about how tight ones grip is, rather the consistency of the grip. Watch that pinky!

I learned a long time ago, that with a revolver with stout recoil, if I cram my entire hand onto the grip the rear of the trigger guard will whack the knuckle of my index finger in recoil and it will hurt.

I NEVER place my pinky onto the grip of a SAA or any other single action revolver.

I ALWAYS curl my pinky under the grip. This opens up about 1/4" or so of space between the rear of the trigger guard and the knuckle of my index finger.

My knuckle has not gotten whacked in years, even with my 45 Colt Black Powder loads and their stout recoil.

 

[JimGnitecki]

Mine is a two-handed grip as well, I guess it could be called a modified Weaver. Aligning the barrel with my forearm means I have to tilt my head in order to align the sights.

You bring up a very important point regarding tightness of grip. Shooting handguns with good accuracy at distance, especially handguns with fairly significant recoil, requires simultaneous focus on multiple areas including sight picture, trigger and grip. I have to be very careful when focusing on the first two because when I do, I tend to loosen my grip, especially the pinky, and if you think about it, in the fulcrum of handgun recoil, the pinky is subject to the greatest force of all the fingers. So it's not just about how tight ones grip is, rather the consistency of the grip. Watch that pinky!

35W

Your remarks about the pinkie finger resonate with me, because I have large hands, and the grip on the Peacemaker is too short for me to keep my pinkie on it unless I grip the handgun high enough that the hammer actually touches the web of my right hand between my humb and forefinger (a bit of hammer bite when I cock it).

I tried shooting the Peacemakers with my pinkie finger instead contacting the BOTTOM of the grip, like I used to accurately shoot my Fred Craig "Fantoms" which were custom "chopped and channeled" incredibly accurate firearms built on cut-down forged aluminum Officer sized 1911 frames. The grips were VERY abbreviated, as Fred's pistols were designed for very concealed carry, and Fred had applied skateboard tape to most of the grip surfaces, and an effective beavertail, to keep the shooter's hand firmly in place despite the miniscule grip size. I could actually shoot the Fantoms very accurately this way, getting 5-shot groups of 1.5" to 2" at 25 yards despite the firearms' diminuative size, and even 3 to 4" groups at 50 yards, even firing hot 38 Super and 45 ACP loads.

But this type of hold did not work well on these revolvers. The lack of any meaningful friction on the smooth wooden grips, and the plowhandle grip shape, resulted in the revolver sliding down until the hammer got to the web of my hand and was stopped by that, necessitating a "re-grip" between shots.

I'm obviously going to have to work a lot more on finding a suitable grip, OR, since I am getting good groups but just at the wrong POI, simply find a way to modify the sights once I have firmly settled on a specific handload.

IT MIGHT be possible to modify the rear sight asymmetrically to move the POI since, as the photo below shows, the very end of the "groove" rear sight that runs the entire lenth of the top strap is in fact "pinched" at the end:



You can also of course see in this photo what a POOR small and indistinct sight picture this pinched V or U produces (not sure even if the designer intended it to be a "v" or a "u").

This 2nd photo shows the rear sight opening to actually be a very shallow "u":



But my 72 year old eye literally cannot discern it to be a "u" versus a "v" when I am aiming the revolver. I just see an "opening" into which I need to stuff that thin front sight with its ever-present "gleam" (versus a desirable flat-black). I guess it's actually remarkable that I can at least sometimes produce 1.5" to 2" groups at 25 yards with this kind of sight picture.

Don't tell me to sell these 2 handguns and replace them with revolvers that have actually usable sights. The Canadian Federal Government has already "temporarily" stopped issuing transfer permits for ALL handguns, and intends to make the ban permanent as soon as it can muster enough of a Parliamentary majority to pass the required legislation (we have a minority givernment currently). So, I need to make these 2 revolvers work for me.

To move the POI to the right by 2.5" at 25 yards though would require widening that u slot by a calculated .032", so that the alignment of the barrel moves the center of the rear sight u to the right by .016". That's a HUGE change on this tiny sight opening, and would have to be done with GREAT precision by a gunsmith (not me for sure!). And then, that u would no longer be aligned with the long groove along the top strap, which my eye might consider as a problem (because of the non-symmetry and non-alignment of the u or v with the groove).

Wow. This is not going to be easy.

Jim G