2 replica peacemakers both shoot 2.5 inches left at 25v yards - Why?

[35 Whelen]

People will argue until they're blue in the face, but I maintain that one simply cannot shoot a revolver with a high degree of accuracy with only two fingers on the grip. I'm sure it's more comfortable and hurts less, but I cannot imagine controlling a revolver without the pinky on the bottom of the grip.
Taylor and Cimarron both offer their SA revolvers with the larger Army grip, so you might consider those or perhaps purchasing the larger grip frame from VTI and putting them on your revolvers.

Regarding the "V"-type rear sights, they're all but useless for serious shooting. I had a Cimarron and a Uberti that both had this type sight. I took them to a local machinist who set them up in his mill and milled the "V" out to a 1/8" groove. MUCH better!



35W

 

[JimGnitecki]

People will argue until they're blue in the face, but I maintain that one simply cannot shoot a revolver with a high degree of accuracy with only two fingers on the grip. I'm sure it's more comfortable and hurts less, but I cannot imagine controlling a revolver without the pinky on the bottom of the grip.
Taylor and Cimarron both offer their SA revolvers with the larger Army grip, so you might consider those or perhaps purchasing the larger grip frame from VTI and putting them on your revolvers.

Regarding the "V"-type rear sights, they're all but useless for serious shooting. I had a Cimarron and a Uberti that both had this type sight. I took them to a local machinist who set them up in his mill and milled the "V" out to a 1/8" groove. MUCH better!

View attachment 1137531

35W

I did not know that you can change the grip FRAME (not just the grips) on a Peacemaker. I may end up wanting to do that, as we Canadians can no loner buy and sell handguns. Those of us who have them (I got these 2 revolvers "just in time" - two weeks later would have been too late) appear to be grandfathered, but even that could change. The Government is currently proposing to confiscate (with renumeration at least) all rifles that they themselves view as and declare to be "assault weapons", some of which have been so-declared for many years but never before actually confiscated.

Milling out the rear u into a square-edged groove on a mill sounds helpful, viable, and probably affordable. After settling on a longterm load, I could have the rear sight modded this way and at the same time have the front sight filed lower and reblued.

Thank-you for both the grip frame and sight suggestions.

Jim G

 

[Driftwood Johnson]

Yes, I am blue in the face from arguing about the pinky under the grip.

Have been doing it for close to 20 years now.

It works.

Yes, the grip does rotate in my hand.

That is the beauty of the plow handle grip of the SAA.

I do not hold the revolver with a death grip, I hold it relatively loosely.

Yes, the grip rotates a bit in my hand, during recoil.

This brings the hammer spur closer to my thumb for easy cocking.

Yes, then I regrip for the next shot.

Anything you do, if you do it consistently, is repeatable.

This works if I am at the bench and shooting for accuracy.

By the way, the plow handle grip of the SAA is the same as the grip of the 1851 Colt Navy Cap & Ball revolver.

The 1860 Colt Army Cap and Ball revolver had a grip about 1/4' longer than the Navy grip, but when William Mason, the designer of the SAA, designed it he went back to the old 1851 Navy grip.

Many shooters, myself included, consider the Colt SAA to be the most naturally pointing revolver ever built, and the 1851 Navy plow handle grip is one reason.

By the way, please work on your trigger technique before mangling your revolver.

 

[35 Whelen]

I did not know that you can change the grip FRAME (not just the grips) on a Peacemaker. I may end up wanting to do that, as we Canadians can no loner buy and sell handguns. Those of us who have them (I got these 2 revolvers "just in time" - two weeks later would have been too late) appear to be grandfathered, but even that could change. The Government is currently proposing to confiscate (with renumeration at least) all rifles that they themselves view as and declare to be "assault weapons", some of which have been so-declared for many years but never before actually confiscated.

Milling out the rear u into a square-edged groove on a mill sounds helpful, viable, and probably affordable. After settling on a longterm load, I could have the rear sight modded this way and at the same time have the front sight filed lower and reblued.

Thank-you for both the grip frame and sight suggestions.

Jim G

I don't know a lot about the larger grip frames, I think maybe there's a Navy grip frame that is larger too. I'd suggest contacting someone like VTI Gun Parts, Cimarron or Taylor and speaking to them directly about the compatibility of the larger grip frames.

As to having the sight groove milled, the machinist who did my revolvers is not a gunsmith, but it was a very simple job for him. I believe it took him longer to find his 1/8" mill bit than it did to mount and level the revolver and mill out the sight groove.

35W

 

[JimGnitecki]

. . .

By the way, please work on your trigger technique before mangling your revolver.

Hey, my trigger technique works well on EVERY other handgun I have used, with 5-shot group sizes being about as good as the trade magazine reviews have atatined.

It is somewhat disappointing to have to create a new unique trigger and grip technique for one specific model of handgun. That should not be a requirement for using that handgun.

I agree that pointing this revolver model is easy and feels good. But I don't shoot a handgun to experience a nice feeling. You shoot it to hit a specific target with some degree of precision. Just my view. Yours may differ and I respect that.

Jim G

 

[JimGnitecki]

. . .

As to having the sight groove milled, the machinist who did my revolvers is not a gunsmith, but it was a very simple job for him. I believe it took him longer to find his 1/8" mill bit than it did to mount and level the revolver and mill out the sight groove.

35W

Sounds good! I prefer a gunsmith only because he will be experienced in where and how the firearm should be secured for the operation, in order to not damage anything on or in it.

Jim G

 

[Driftwood Johnson]

Do your other revolvers have adjustable sights?

Did you see what I wrote about adjustable sights can be adjusted to make up for less than perfect trigger technique?

I apologize for repeatedly saying 'poor technique' but in my experience, every double action revolver I have purchased used (lots of them) has had the rear sight adjusted to the right to make up for shooters pushing their bullets to the left.

I am not perfect, some of my Smiths have the rear sight adjusted to the right, to make up for my less than perfect trigger technique.

As I said, a fixed sight revolver will let the shooter know if he is using less than perfect trigger technique.

 

[doubleh]

As to having the sight groove milled, the machinist who did my revolvers is not a gunsmith, but it was a very simple job for him. I believe it took him longer to find his 1/8" mill bit than it did to mount and level the revolver and mill out the sight groove.

I only play at being a machinist an even I could do that. In fact I have been intending to do it to a couple of Heritage Rough Riders that are difficult to get clear sight pictures with. I am surprised that no one has suggested doing it the simple and slightly harder but cheap way using needle files.

 

[JimGnitecki]

Do your other revolvers have adjustable sights?

. . .

These are my only current revolvers (I do have one semi-auto pistol). Some past revolvers and semiautos had adjustable sights and some were fixed. I did not have to adjust the sights for windage nor alter fixed sights. The Colt replicas have at least so far been the only ergonomic handgun problems.

I HAVE had issues with some rifle stocks though. My cheekbones and eye are apparently positioned at just the wrong location, so when I shoot any rifle with an AR-type stock, I have to get a set of raised sights or a high rise scope mount in order to be able to align my eye with the sight. Without the raised sight base, I cannot actually get low enough without hurting my cheekbone.

The Stoeger coach gun shotgun also has a similae issue for me. I cannot reallly get my eye low enough to comfortably sight along the barrel rib. I did not seem to have any problem with a Winchester 1897 "trench gun" replica when I shot it in CAS in the past.

I shoot handguns proportionately better (not absolutely better of course) than I shoot rifles.

Jim G

 

[35 Whelen]

I only play at being a machinist an even I could do that. In fact I have been intending to do it to a couple of Heritage Rough Riders that are difficult to get clear sight pictures with. I am surprised that no one has suggested doing it the simple and slightly harder but cheap way using needle files.

Dude....I started that job on the "finish-less" Uberti pictured above. I soon decided that I'd worked too hard and taken too much care of my finances to not just pay someone a few bucks to do a 10 minute job on a mill rather than trying to file out the sight!

35W

 

[JimGnitecki]

I only play at being a machinist an even I could do that. In fact I have been intending to do it to a couple of Heritage Rough Riders that are difficult to get clear sight pictures with. I am surprised that no one has suggested doing it the simple and slightly harder but cheap way using needle files.

I am not familiar with "needle files". Are they simply very small files? Or ?

How do you keep the "corners" of the sight opening absolutely square? Are there files that have filing surfaces on 2 adjacent sides separated by 90 degrees?

Sorry for the ignorance, but I have never had the need before to learn about files and how to use them properly.

For example, I am currently learning to TIG weld, and learned as part of that process that you cannot grind a tungsten electrode just any which way. You need to use a Diamond wheel specifically, you cannot use that diamond wheel to grind any other material whatsoever, and you cannot simply "break" the fouled portion of a tungsten electrode off, you have to instead grind a circumferential groove in the electrode using the EDGE of the diamond wheel, and THEN snap the electrode. Otherwise, you can create longitudinal surface cracks which will misdirect your TIG welding arc.

So, I am careful when trying "new things"!

Jim G

 

[.45Coltguy]

Wow, 35 Whelen! You are abolsutely correct! I would never have though of even LOOKING for that offset in the trigger location, especially since the trigger GUARD is NOT offset - the guard is perfectlyc centered, as this photo of one of my Cimarron replicas clearly shows:

View attachment 1137464

But the trigger itself IS offcenter!

Now I get why maybe I am shooting left consistently.

THANK-YOU for pointing out this important trigger information. I'm wondering why I have not seen this highlighted elsewhere, as I have looked at many reviews of Colt SAA revolvers. Never saw this asymmetry mentioned.

I also just checked all 3 of my other firearms: the lever action replica rifle, my Stoeger double barreled shotgun, and my SIG P210A modern semi-auto handgun. The trigger guard and tirgger both are perfectly symmetric with the firearm frame on all of them.

So, the Colt SAA asymmetry seems to be unique to that model. No wonder so many people other than me find they shoot left if no special measures are taken.

Now, to find a solution:

My normal handgun grip is always a TWO-handed grip. My right hand grips the handgun first, and then my left hand wraps aorund it. Same "combat" grip as the IPSC and IDPS shooters use. And my body position is isosceles rather than Weaver. i.e. symmetric versus non-symmetric.

So, the remedy here is likely going to be to hold a much TIGHTER grip on the gun. The grip is already symmetrical, but probably needs to be tighter to PRESERVE the symmetry during trigger pull and during recoil, due to the asymmetry of the trigger's position and its asymmetric efefct upon the handgun.

I will definitely try that at the next range session.

Jim G

This was indeed discussed earlier in the Handloading sub forum "357 magnum loading for Cowboy Action Shooting-component availability issues." P.5, post #114.

 

[J-Bar]

I shot SASS/CAS for 22 years with a variety of single action revolvers, both cartridge and percussion. 2 to 3 inches off point of aim at 25 yards will provide adequate accuracy at cowboy action target distances. I share your compulsion about accuracy and understand wanting to have POI on POA. Just recognize that your cowboy guns were neither designed nor built to be Olympic competition guns. I hope you can learn to enjoy the sport for what it is, a fun social pastime with some shooting involved. There are a lot of expensive rabbit holes you can go down trying to "improve" guns that are already adequate for the sport. Good luck with your guns and competition!

 

[JimGnitecki]

This was indeed discussed earlier in the Handloading sub forum "357 magnum loading for Cowboy Action Shooting-component availability issues." P.5, post #114.

You are correct. I had focused on that post's OTHER point, which was that it's easy on the Peacemaker to get the crease of the trigger finger onto the trigger if you don't really police the finger's location. I completely forgot about the offset of the trigger mentioned in that same post.

Interestingly, that same thread I think brought out somehwere that the REACH from the grip to the trigger was significantly shorter than most modern handguns. It's actually about 1/2" shorter than typical these days, and notably shorter than on the S&W Schofield which was in use in the same time period. It's tempting to think that Colt did this to "offset" the left offset of the trigger, but as previously pointed out, no, the trigger offset was necessitated by inetrnal parts placement. The shorter reach WOULD make it easier to reach the offset trigger face. Unfortunately though, that same shorter reach makes it easier to get the finger crease onto the side of the trigger or right onto the trigger if your hands are large, as mine are.

As I mentioned earlier, my next attempt to address this entire issue is to try a much tighter handgrip and maintain as symmetric a hold on the revolver as I can with both arms.

Jim G

 

[JimGnitecki]

. . . There are a lot of expensive rabbit holes you can go down trying to "improve" guns that are already adequate for the sport. Good luck with your guns and competition!

Yeah, you are certainly right about that! I don't have the budget to tolerate too many of those expensive rabbit holes, so the money I spend on this issue will be limited!

Jim G

 

[.45Coltguy]

People will argue until they're blue in the face, but I maintain that one simply cannot shoot a revolver with a high degree of accuracy with only two fingers on the grip. I'm sure it's more comfortable and hurts less, but I cannot imagine controlling a revolver without the pinky on the bottom of the grip.
Taylor and Cimarron both offer their SA revolvers with the larger Army grip, so you might consider those or perhaps purchasing the larger grip frame from VTI and putting them on your revolvers.

Regarding the "V"-type rear sights, they're all but useless for serious shooting. I had a Cimarron and a Uberti that both had this type sight. I took them to a local machinist who set them up in his mill and milled the "V" out to a 1/8" groove. MUCH better!

View attachment 1137531

35W

This had me go look at my Pietta 1873 "Gun Fighter" rear notch. It has the "squared" notch like the machined here. Huh.

 

[doubleh]

Dude....I started that job on the "finish-less" Uberti pictured above. I soon decided that I'd worked too hard and taken too much care of my finances to not just pay someone a few bucks to do a 10 minute job on a mill rather than trying to file out the sight!

35W

Not into do it your self stuff, huh?

I am not familiar with "needle files". Are they simply very small files?

Yes, they are and in various shapes. They are just like a regular files otherwise. Type in "needle file" on Amazon and you will get more choices than you can imagine. Like most everything you can get excellent quality to shouldn't even be sold quality. I have three sets; One is English and have lasted for many years, a set of Nicholson's that are years old and reserved for brass alloys, and then a set of diamond files. The diamond ones were rather cheap and purchased for a one time job years ago. They are still going strong though. Unlike regular files they cut hardened steel.

 

[35 Whelen]

This had me go look at my Pietta 1873 "Gun Fighter" rear notch. It has the "squared" notch like the machined here. Huh.

Yeah the squared rear notches weren't machined from luck or happenstance. The notches are pretty much the same size that'll find on adjustable sights and rear combat sights.

35W

 

[35 Whelen]

Not into do it your self stuff, huh?




Yes, they are and in various shapes. They are just like a regular files otherwise. Type in "needle file" on Amazon and you will get more choices than you can imagine. Like most everything you can get excellent quality to shouldn't even be sold quality. I have three sets; One is English and have lasted for many years. a set of Nicholson's that are years old and reserved for for brass alloys, and then a set of diamond files. The diamond ones were rather cheap and purchased for a one time job years ago. They are still going strong though. Unlike regular files they cut hardened steel.

I do all sorts of things myself. In fact I soldered a new front sight on the finish-less Uberti. I the forcing cones of all my revolvers to 11°. I bead blast and Parkerize my own firearms. But I feel my time is too valuable to piddle around with needle files, trying to open a rear sight!

35W

 

[doubleh]

OK. I don't know what your time is worth to you but it would be around a 10 minute job for me----if I was sure where my files were. I can spare that much.

 

[JimGnitecki]

[QUOTE
. . . Unlike regular files they cut hardened steel.[/QUOTE]

Speaking of hardened steel, aren't the frames of Colt replicas case hardened? Would a "normal" file work to file a better rear sight opening, or do you need the "Diamond" file?

Again, forgive my ignorance on files, and finishes, but I've simply never before needed to know much about them.

Jim G

 

[35 Whelen]

[QUOTE
. . . Unlike regular files they cut hardened steel.

Speaking of hardened steel, aren't the frames of Colt replicas case hardened? Would a "normal" file work to file a better rear sight opening, or do you need the "Diamond" file?

Again, forgive my ignorance on files, and finishes, but I've simply never before needed to know much about them.

Jim G[/QUOTE]

Chemically colored but not color case hardened.

35W

 

[JimGnitecki]

Speaking of hardened steel, aren't the frames of Colt replicas case hardened? Would a "normal" file work to file a better rear sight opening, or do you need the "Diamond" file?

Again, forgive my ignorance on files, and finishes, but I've simply never before needed to know much about them.

Jim G

Chemically colored but not color case hardened.

35W[/QUOTE]

Ok, so if I or a gunsmith were to reshape the rear sight opening, would the result be unprotected steel where the case hardening color finish has been filed away? How do you then touch up the metal to prevent corrosion?

Jim G

 

[J-Bar]

please, please, please,

shoot those guns at paper at 7 yards before doing ANYTHING to them. At CAS distances I bet a donut you will get a tight group pretty close to your aiming point.

 

[35 Whelen]

Chemically colored but not color case hardened.

35W

Ok, so if I or a gunsmith were to reshape the rear sight opening, would the result be unprotected steel where the case hardening color finish has been filed away? How do you then touch up the metal to prevent corrosion?

Jim G[/QUOTE]

If you're worried about it, dab a little cold blue on it and keep it oiled.

35W