20 gauge or 12 gauge?

[MCgunner]

I just don't see any reason to buy a 20 when you can get a 12 which can do more things.

I own 3 12s, one 20, but the 20 is just so handy, it's the one I keep loaded in the bedroom. I didn't buy ANY of 'em for home defense. I bought 'em for wing shooting. I know all of 'em well. The 20 is the most handy, the quickest to the shoulder and on target. It swings fast, it points fast, and it hits hard enough. The first hit is likely to win the fight, as the .410 story above illustrates.

Why not get a 10? Because ammo is hard to find and very limited and the guns are far more expensive. You surely know these things.

Ammo is as close as midwayusa.com . Quick delivery, too. Don't even have to step away from your computer desk. They'll bring it right to your door. And, lots of people say on this board, "how much is your life worth?", when talking about guns for self defense. Hey, if I can own a 10, you can own a 10.

See, what I don't like about the 10, though, is what I do like about the 20, it's not light like the 20. It's short, but its weight means it's rather slow on target. And, I don't think you need more than a 20 for home defense. 20 gauge, in fact, is a bit overkill. Most homeowners are fine with a .38 special. Besides, if I pull both barrels, it's a 10! Or, maybe it's a 40? Nah, it's an inverse thing.

 

[Dr_2_B]

Most people like the idea of biggest and most powerful, etc. But for most purposes, the 20 is plenty - and much more controllable.

I'm a full-grown man with plenty experience firing long guns. But I still wince when I'm firing a 12 ga.

 

[Hunter123]

I own a single shot rossi 20 gauge and i think that the 20 gauge would be everything you need i have hunted everything from rabbits to turkey with it. My model has a short barrel and is very manuveralbe and for the recoil it is very barable

 

[MD_Willington]

Before buying a home defense shotgun I rented a 12 GA at the range and after the first three shots my shoulder hurt so badly I was afraid to fire it again.

When you're adrenylin is pumping, you've got tunnel vision, & you heart is pounding in your throat...

Recoil will be the last thing you worry about... You probably will not even remember hearing the rounds go off...

 

[Willo]

The first time I went out with my 12 gauge, the next day my entire shoulder and upper arm were black and blue. Lasted for about a week. The second time, part of my shoulder was black and blue, lasted a couple of days. The third time I went out, no bruises at all. Each time thereafter, no bruises.

Pretty weird, guess the body gets used to it?

 

[MCgunner]

The only reason to leave the 20 at home is steel shot. Weren't for steel shot, I could use a 20 for everything except maybe geese and have in fact before steel came along. 2 3/4" 20 gauge high brass number 5s were KILLER on ducks back in the lead days. It has nothing to do with macho. I can take recoil as much as any man. It's about the gun and it's quickness and handling. I've been shooting 12s with 3" loads for 40 years, probably longer than most on this board. I've killed truck loads of geese with 'em over the years. It ain't about being the baddest mofo on the block, it's about KNOWING shotguns and choosing what works best. A 5.5 lb 20 handles a lot quicker than a 9 lb 10 gauge, that's just a fact. If you don't understand this, you haven't been wing shooting very long. And if you equate a pellet rifle with a 20 gauge, you're just ballistically impaired. I have both, no question which is appropriate for home defense. I don't need no damned 105 in my bedroom, though, and frankly, I take the .38 if I have to leave the safety of the bedroom.

I'll give my next IRA check to the man who will stand 15 feet from me and let me shoot him in the chest with a load of 3 buck from my 20. Your survivors can get the money. You won't be here to spend it. A 12 won't kill you any deader, trust me.

 

[remingtondude58]

I think a 20 Ga will work just fine, if you like it. How is ammunition availability around you? I know around here it is often easier to find 12 Ga. Many of your recoil problems can be taken away with a proper mount.

 

[inSight-NEO]

To sum up all of this mess: the 20 ga. can be an effective HD weapon, no doubt. But, given the "versatility" of the 12 ga., this may be a better option.

As far as "sore shoulders," yes, the 12 ga. can have a bit more kick (depending on the ammo), but once a solid "mount" and/or "fit" is acheived, this kick and/or shoulder damage becomes much less of an issue, IMHO.

Also, as has been said before, lesser calibers can be just as effective as the larger ones...in the right hands. But, why not pick the largest caliber that you can effectively use?

 

[JimKirk]

I just don't understand why some people insist on sticking to a line of thinking despite all kinds of evidence.

Thats why.

JK

 

[vicdotcom]

'Me ask y'all this......Is 20 gauge right now trending more popular, less popular, or about the same, as 5 or 10 years ago, relative to 12 gauge? I've come to like 20 ga a lot, and the bulk/target shells are the exact same price as 12 ga at Academy, but specialty shells are a bit more than 12s, IIRC.

I have noticed a significant trend in 20 gauge affectionados. I have found the same to be true for me personally also. I went from 20ga when I first started, to 12ga when I felt like I needed "more", and now back to 20ga. I think that recent developments in ammo choices for the 20ga is helping a lot. I like taking long walks when out with my rifles/shotguns and I have come to appreciate the weight saving 20ga and I actually retired my Rem 700 for a Remington Model 7 with the soda straw barrel. I have personally come to rely on the limits of my own shooting over "maximum firepower".

In stores I have also talked to shop owners about the 20's flying off the racks. I have heard that more people considering it for their wives, kids etc. But I suspect (cant prove) more than a few were doing it for themselves. A lot of people also mention that the 20ga has been recommended by Massad Ayoob as being part of their decision.

You can already see that the arguments for 20 ga here on the forum has jumped up a lot this year also. I dont see this trend stopping.

 

[vicdotcom]

To sum up all of this mess: the 20 ga. can be an effective HD weapon, no doubt. But, given the "versatility" of the 12 ga., this may be a better option.

I never bought into the "more versatile" reasoning. How versitile does a shotgun need to be? Are you going to be breeching doors one moment then shooting quail or something after that? You need some steelshot, buckshot, slugs, turkey loads, birdshot, target loads, low-recoil, magnums, less lethals, small game loads and it goes on and on. How many of these are you realisitcally going to need on hand? Just like a swiss army knife, it is nice to have all the tools, but you are really only going to use few of them often.

 

[oneounceload]

The first time I went out with my 12 gauge, the next day my entire shoulder and upper arm were black and blue. Lasted for about a week. The second time, part of my shoulder was black and blue, lasted a couple of days. The third time I went out, no bruises at all. Each time thereafter, no bruises.

Pretty weird, guess the body gets used to it?

Upper arm?? You need to do a better job of getting the stock into your shoulder.

The body does NOT get used to it - the effect is cumulative over time. If you continue not shouldering correctly, your ortho dr will be loving you when you're older

 

[MCgunner]

When you're a kid, you use a light gauge because you are learning and don't wanna be pelted. You buy a 12 when you get about college age cause you are macho now and think you need the extra payload, or, you might think the birds will fall magically without proper swing with a 12 or you might think it'll reach those 70 yard geese. Whatever, you think you NEED that 12.

Then, one day you realize, 20 gauges are light, they point quicker, they're easier to tote if you're chasing quail in west Texas or walking a long ways to a pot hole. They are faster to the shoulder when those high speed morning teal buzz in out of the dawn darkness over your deeks at 40 feet off the water. You learn that you MIGHT just kill more birds with a 20 than a 12 on some species of birds because the gun is so quick to the shoulder and handles so well. Somewhere along the way you've hopefully figured out something about shotgun fit and a few other nuances of the sport.

The 12s do things well, but the little light 20s work better sometimes on some game. Of course, this has absolutely nothing to do with home defense, sorry about that, but yeah, I think in general 20 gauge is becoming more popular. I have no poll numbers to base that one, only friends and instinct. It'll never (I don't think) equal the 12, though. There's always more kids that think they need the 12 than old farts scaling back. Me, I find I NEED both and added a 10 gauge for goose hunting. I don't really think gauge matters in home defense so long as it's 20 gauge or up. .410 can do the job, but it's a little light on payload. I don't think buckshot comes in 28. The vast majority of pump defense guns are in 12 and that will remain because there's so many police loads, non-lethal as well as lethal, if nothing else. The military uses it, so that nails the tacticool crowd right there. Absolutely nothing wrong with the 12 as a defense gun, far from it. But, do I feel undergunned with a 20 in the bedroom? No, not really. It's still tossing nearly 2000 ft lbs which is about 3 times my .357 magnum 3" revolver. And, it's over 50 caliber even before the shot starts to spread.

 

[Mossberg535]

20 gauge or 12 gauge?
I am thinking about purchasing a Remington 870 synthetic 7 round for home defense. The gun shop has a shotgun as I described it in 20 gauge in store, but I could order a twelve gauge through them, but I don't like to wait, and I think I might function significantly better with the lesser recoil of the 20gauge however I am concerned that the 20 gauge may not be as effective as I need it to be in a self defense situation. (though I know it is deadly)

What do you think I should do? I am leaning towards the 20 gauge.

12 gauge. Always a 12 gauge.
If for no other reason, then 12 gauge for the versatility. There are more loads for 12 gauge than any other shotgun, and no wonder since its the most popular gauge. You can get anything from very light loads to some exotic stuff that would rival munitions used in Vietnam.
http://www.deltaforce.com/catalog/12gaugeammo.html
Theres a reason the military uses 12 gauge shotguns.

I bought a Mossy 535 turkey thumbhole model that has a very nice recoil pad that even with magnums leaves barely even noticeable recoil. Havent had a bruise yet, even after a day at the range.

There are TONS of good recoil pads you can buy for less than $30 if you dont like the recoil.
Why limit your choices of loads because it kicks a little harder ?

Edit to add that my wife is HORRIFIED of big guns. Never shot anything more than a 22 rifle before.
But one day she wanted to try shooting my 535 (like the one in the pic above) and was so light and easy on her that she even shot some 3" 000 buck magnums without any problem.
My wife is 120lbs, 5' "7 and about as thin as a rail.
Please tell me that she isnt handling anything full grown men cant.


.

 

[Tim the student]

I think I might function significantly better with the lesser recoil of the 20gauge however I am concerned that the 20 gauge may not be as effective as I need it to be in a self defense situation.

Then get a 20. A 20 you can handle well is far better than a 12 you don't handle as well.

A 20 will kill a man just fine - just as they will easily drop a 250lb deer literally RIGHT THERE if shot properly.

 

[Mossberg535]

That was one shot to hell fox!!

I agree.
I had to shoot a squirrel 7 times with a 22lr a few years ago and he still managed to drag himself across a limb and into his nest.
With that same 22 I shot a huge boar coon once and killed him.
Shot placement is critical.
That said, the more shot hitting the target the more likely there will be a critical hit.

 

[Mossberg535]

I have a 10 gauge, better than the 12. Should I load up the 10 with 18 pellets of 00? I have the ammo. Would I then be invincible? On geese, 12 gauge ain't squat to the 10. The 10 RULES, frankly.

Not anymore
The 3.5" 12 gauge shell, along with the higher pressure for the 12 gauges that can handle it, such as the MB535, have put the final nails in the 10gauge coffin.

The 10 ga. has a SAAMI limit of 11,000 PSI to work with, the lowest of any reasonably common gauge.

vs​

But, the 3-1/2 in 12 ga. is a different matter. Instead of 11,500 PSI to work with, the SAAMI spec was increased to 14,000 PSI...

------------------------------------------------------------

Federal currently lists five 10 ga. loads in total.

vs​

Federal offers over SEVENTY-FIVE different 12 gauge shotshell loads

http://www.chuckhawks.com/10_gauge_obsolete.htm

Super X Mag Buckshot Winchester 12 Gauge, 3 1/2", 18 Pellets 00 Buck

http://www.lg-outdoors.com/proddetail.asp?prod=3029



.

 

[Mossberg535]

I never bought into the "more versatile" reasoning. How versitile does a shotgun need to be? Are you going to be breeching doors one moment then shooting quail or something after that? You need some steelshot, buckshot, slugs, turkey loads, birdshot, target loads, low-recoil, magnums, less lethals, small game loads and it goes on and on. How many of these are you realisitcally going to need on hand? Just like a swiss army knife, it is nice to have all the tools, but you are really only going to use few of them often.

I used to work with a great guy named Sam who I played a few rounds of golf with one summer.
I was a bit confused when his bag only had a 7 iron and a putter in it, but hey, Im not nosy.
Turned out that Sam played an entire round of golf with those 2 clubs. 7 iron for all his drives and fairway shots, then putter on the green.
Sam could really hit that ball pretty far, I'll give him that, but one thing for sure, Sam never really knew if his ball was going to go too far or too short. He could hit far and straight, but he had no finesse and certainly did not have the proper tools for those bunker and heavy rough shots.
Sam was a good golfer...but Sam would have been much better if he had branched out and used the right clubs. Hell, I think the guy had a chance of being a pro if he wanted to. He was talented enough, just not broad minded enough to get away from that 7 iron limitation.

Do I need 75 different 12 gauge loads ? Probably not.
But its nice to know theyre there IF and WHEN I do need them
Nothing like finding out that you REALLY need a pitching wedge and the only thing in your bag is a 7 iron.
.

 

[AStone]

I traded in my 12 for a .357 mag/.38 spl.

I'd rather have 6 focused rnds that penetrate more deeply
than X rnds that make more noise but are designed for birds
or the X 9 mm rnds in a shot shell.

If the invasion gets more serious, the .30-30 will step up.

 

[snooperman]

I have both , A 12 and a 20 for home defense

I like the 12 guage the best because there is more ammo selection. The 20 may not give you less recoil, mine does not. The 20 guage ammo for home defense is limited with number 3 buckshot, 20 pellets at 23g each, which is a total of 460 grains coming out of a lighter gun at 1200 ft/sec. The recoil is horrible. However, with the 12 guage, one can by reduced loads, such as the Centurian 2 inch shells or Aguilla that will fit in my coach gun easily. The Aguila 12 ga mini shell has 7#4 bucks stacked with 4 # 1 bucks for a total mass of 300 grains going 1200 ft/sec. This is to me an ideal load for home defense. It has little recoil and will do the job in the home without over penetration. I would not hunt with this load though. Now I am looking to sell my 20 ga for another 12 double coach gun. Remember, that the Agila mini shell will not cycle well in a pump shotgun. There are others that will, such as the Centurian 12 ga OO buck, which is a reduced load 2 inch shell.

 

[MCgunner]

Quote:
I have a 10 gauge, better than the 12. Should I load up the 10 with 18 pellets of 00? I have the ammo. Would I then be invincible? On geese, 12 gauge ain't squat to the 10. The 10 RULES, frankly.


Not anymore
The 3.5" 12 gauge shell, along with the higher pressure for the 12 gauges that can handle it, such as the MB535, have put the final nails in the 10gauge coffin.

My 10 patterns T shot at 40 yards on a 30" pattern board at 95+%. Patterns are why I like the 10 for goose hunting. It ain't a self defense gun. But, I'll carry it on a local buckshot only WMA for hog hunting. At 50 yards, I get one or two pellets on a hog's head every shot. Patterns are everything for hunting. I've ignored 12 gauge 3.5". My 3" gun (Mossberg 500 camo) can do anything else that needs doing other than geese at longish ranges. If you own one 835 or some other 3.5" gun and call it an "all around" gun, fine, the ammo, maybe. But, I'll outshoot a gun that bulky and heavy with my light weight 20 gauge on doves or quail every time. It FLIES to the shoulder, swings fast on a flushing bird. IMHO, THERE SIMPLY IS NO SUCH THING AS A DO ALL SHOTGUN, PERIOD. It's the gun, not the gauge, that matters. If you think 12 can do everything, well, you'll grow up some day. I've got this buddy I outshoot on dove every season. He shoots a 835 and is a good wing shot. Now, he's telling me he wants to load up some 6 shot in 10 gauge for his new Browning BPS10. He hasn't learned, match the gun to the job. But, I'm going to load some rounds up for him and proceed to outshoot him AGAIN, no doubt. The BPS10 is a behemoth, over 9 lbs. It makes the 835 seem absolutely svelte. LOL

Anyway, in this conversation, I used the 10 as an example to the "more is better" crowd. IOW, if 12 is better than 20, 10 is better than 12. OR, you could go 8 gauge, but most don't reload and that's pretty much mandatory for 8 gauge. Still lots of 10 available, mostly goose and turkey loads, but also buckshot and slugs. I wasn't trying to be literal. I keep a 20 gauge for home defense loaded with 3 buck.

The 20 may not give you less recoil, mine does not. The 20 guage ammo for home defense is limited with number 3 buckshot, 20 pellets at 23g each, which is a total of 460 grains coming out of a lighter gun at 1200 ft/sec. The recoil is horrible.

I don't know what you have, H&R maybe? My Spartan is MUCH lighter on the shoulder than a 12 gauge shooting ANY 2 3/4" stuff, even slugs are easy. I can one hand 'em if I want, no problem. Out of my old 12 gauge SxS, a sub 7 lb gun, I'm pointing 45 degrees up after firing slugs. It lets you know it went off, put it that way. Even my 10 gauge is much more pleasant. Weight of the gun means a lot as does fit of the gun. The 20 starts to recoil a bit with 3" steel shot loads, but not with 2 3/4" buckshot. They're rather wimpy on the shoulder. However, they hit the target with 3 times the energy of the .357 magnum, I will reiterate that! Do you think the .357 magnum isn't enough to kill a man? I've killed 2 deer with it from a handgun and one from a rifle. They were dead within a few yards of where they where hit and they were lung shot. The rifle produces about 1300 ft lbs at the muzzle, but I hit that deer at 80 yards where it had dropped below 800 ft lbs.

 

[MCgunner]

BTW, is Chuck Hawks a goose hunter? I think I could teach him a lot. I've been shooting geese for over 40 years. I know what works and what don't. At this point, I don't need to read articles about it. I could write 'em, but don't need to read 'em.

 

[Mossberg535]

IMHO, THERE SIMPLY IS NO SUCH THING AS A DO ALL SHOTGUN, PERIOD.

We can use CAPS and 'period' all we want here, friend, but the FACT is if a person is looking for ONE shotgun that DOES do pretty much everything needed, then Im sorry but the ONE gun to go with is a 12 gauge.
Between gun selections, choke selections and shot selection the 12 gauge has no rival.

 

[Mossberg535]

BTW, is Chuck Hawks a goose hunter? I think I could teach him a lot. I've been shooting geese for over 40 years.

And for all of those 40 years did the 3.5" 12 gauge shell exist so that you could have compared it to the 10 ga. to come to an objective, unbiased conclusion ?
Without that comparison it really doesnt matter how long youve been hunting with a 10ga, does it ?
How do you KNOW that if the 3.5" had been around 40 years ago that this discussion wouldnt be with you here telling us that the 12 gauge is the king of all shotguns ?

I've got this buddy I outshoot on dove every season.

And that cant just be that you are a better shot ?
Ive no doubt at all that you will shoot circles around me with a shotgun..none at all. But I got away from shotguns for a long time to use rifles so Im not that great a shot with them now because of lack of time served.
Any shotgun will work in most cases. But for versatility the 12 gauge has no equal, not even the 20 gauge.
As I said, there is a reason the military and even police forces choose the 12 gauge.

I know what works and what don't. At this point, I don't need to read articles about it. I could write 'em, but don't need to read 'em.

I read. And thats why I generally only need to buy something once. I read to know what others with experience in a given matter have found to be the facts.

 

[snooperman]

I agree with Mossberg 535

The 12 guage shotgun is king if you want a "DO-ALL" shotgun. WHY? Simple, there are more ammo choices. They are making ammo with recoil like a 20 ga or even a 3" 410. Even mini shells that function in coach guns for home defense and quail hunting, and the list goes on and on for the mighty 12. You can do more with the 12 because of the ammo choices than any other guage. This is not just a whimsical opinion, IT IS A FACT.