20 gauge or 12 gauge?

[MCgunner]

And for all of those 40 years did the 3.5" 12 gauge shell exist so that you could have compared it to the 10 ga. to come to an objective, unbiased conclusion ?
Without that comparison it really doesnt matter how long youve been hunting with a 10ga, does it ?

A little history lesson.

Son, they didn't have STEEL shot until 1980. I hunted geese with a sixteen gauge until I was 19 and got my first 12, a side by side with 3" chambers that kicked like a mule with BB lead 3" loads. I still have that gun, but I retired it from waterfowl when steel came along. It isn't steel shot compatible. I traded a motorcycle frame for a Revelation 310 (mossberg 500) with a C-lect choke on it and then ordered a vent rib 500 barrel with the screw in tubes and hunted with that up 'til about 92 when I got a 500 camo. I sold the old Revelation. I'd been hunting with steel 3", quite a compromise. BB steel would become ineffective at about 40 yards. If I could get those birds 35 or closer, they were mine, but on days that they just hung up there about 50 and laughed at you, they were safe. As I hunted more ducks than geese, I put up with it.

The 10 suddenly had a rebirth in the early 80s because of steel shot. Before steel, it was dead. Ithaca came out with the Mag 10, later bought and redesigned by Remington. They were flying off the shelves to those who could afford 'em, but I was always buying race bikes and parts at that time and never had the cash. Motorcycle racing is expensive. Within a few years, Mossberg introduced the 835 and 3.5" 12. Immediately, comparisons were made to the ten, but those in the know who patterned both with the new T and F shot found the 10 patterned much better. So, 10 has NOT died even after all these years of 12 gauge 3.5" guns. It simply patterns better. In addition to the Mag 10, later SP10, there's now the H&R and the Browning BPS. It is a very specialized gauge these days, really only for turkey hunters and goose hunters who want the best patterns. It will never catch the 12 gauge in sales, but not many buy the 3.5" 12s, mostly just duck hunters who might get a goose hunt now and then. T shot 3.5" 12 definitely beats 3" 12 gauge, but 10 beats 3.5" 12 in pattern without many exceptions. Serious goose hunters get the 10. Not so serious get the 12 so they can hunt ducks with it. Frankly, I find 2 3/4" 3s plenty for duck hunting over decoys. I shoot 'em from my winchester 1400 or my 500 now days, don't even buy 3" anymore.

So, you want to bury the 10 in history, but it will not die. It simply patterns big steel shot better. What this has to do with the OP, I'm unsure, but I felt maybe you didn't know the history here.

You'll learn the virtues of the 20 gauge AND the 10 and maybe even the 28 some day. I'm kind of wanting a 28, myself. The ammo is high, though. Not sure I could preference it over 20 gauge for that reason, but if anything would be quick to the shoulder and fast to follow a dodging and darting dove with, it'd be a light, well fitting little 28 OU or SxS. Open your mind, you might enjoy the variety. There's more to life than an 8+ lb pump gun. I still want a stack barrel, but I'm going to wait a few years until I have the money to spend on a nice one. I've looked over what's available and some of it looks good, but ya know, I can't take it with me and I'm pushing 60. I want a NICE gun for a change. Be kinda neat if I could get it in 28 gauge, but I'll take another 20. 20s make for a lighter, quicker upland gun and I have no intention of using it on waterfowl. Mossbergs are more replaceable and the salt marsh is a tough environment. Mossbergs are okay, they're functional, they work, but not something I really admire in my hands. LOL!

Anyway, to the home defense thing, 20 gauge kills deer just as dead as 12 out to 50 yards even with a foster slug. At 10 feet, it's VAST overkill. 12 is just more overkill. If you want to use a 20, you will not be under gunned in the home defense scenario. I don't see any volunteers to stand 10 feet from the muzzle and take a load of 3 buck in the chest, put it that way. If there are, I'm not assisting a suicide.

So, anyway, never say you just need a 12 and everything else is garbage. Sooner or later, you may want a 20 or a 10 for something. I used to bad mouth Harley Davidson big time back in the 70s, they made absolute JUNK and charged Smith and Wesson prices for it. I was a performance kinda guy, racing flat track and road racing. Then, the evo came along and now the TC88 and they even have counterbalancers and even rubber mounted the Sportster so it don't shake your fillings out. I like 'em now, but every time I mention Harley, my pre-conditioned wife says "You don't want one of those THINGS, do ya? They're junk!" She doesn't keep up with 2 wheeled things OR firearms. LOL Well, whatever, to each his own. Live in blissful ignorance. No sweat off me.

 

[Mossberg535]

The 12 guage shotgun is king if you want a "DO-ALL" shotgun.

Thats really all Im trying to get at.

Ive owned 20 and 16 gauges...loved them both. Never a complaint with either.
But if a person is looking to find a 'jack of all trades' sort of gun..something they can buy once and have it be good to great at everything, then the 12ga is the one to go with.

I was at Meijer here in Ohio last evening. No 10 ga shells at all. None.
There was ONE box of 16 gauge bird shot.
There was few bulk boxes of 20 ga light birdshot, some buckshot and slugs.
A small selection of 410 stuff, no 28 gauge to be found, but a large selection/variety of 12 gauge shells. So many that I didnt end up buying anything because I thought I only had one choice of #5 steel but turns out there were two or three different options. I wanted to come home and get more information online before choosing one.

When I decided to buy a 12 gauge the deciding factor was when I go to the store...whether its a gun store or Walmart, the 12 gauge ALWAYS has a better selection and is always available to whatever extent and always is in the best price range.

I loved my 20 an 16 gauges. Im sad they were traded a long time ago.
I loved my 410 single shot and the 410 Mossy pump I had.
Its not about hating or disliking any shotgun. I love just about any decent gun made.
But if a man is looking to find ONE gun that does it all, does it well and has plenty of choices for ammo, there is no getting around the fact that the 12 gauge is currently king of the hill.
Why ?
Not because the 12 gauge is some magical thing, but simply because its used more than any other shotgun and because of that manufacturers of both guns and ammo have gone nuts providing us with options for it.

 

[MCgunner]

The 12 guage shotgun is king if you want a "DO-ALL" shotgun. WHY? Simple, there are more ammo choices. They are making ammo with recoil like a 20 ga or even a 3" 410. Even mini shells that function in coach guns for home defense and quail hunting, and the list goes on and on for the mighty 12. You can do more with the 12 because of the ammo choices than any other guage. This is not just a whimsical opinion, IT IS A FACT.

It's not just about the ammo, the gun that shoots that ammo is oft more important. Lighter gauges just handle better IF the guns are scaled to the gauge.

 

[Tim the student]

You can do more with the 12 because of the ammo choices than any other guage.

That may be, but a 20 would do everything I do with my 12. Hunt deer, pheasant, squirrel, bunnnies sometimes, clays occasionally, and HD.

I bet most people are like that - they have a few things that they want a gun to do, and either a 12 or a 20 do those things nicely. I have never thought about what my 12 could possibly do, only what I want it to do.

I don't need any different ammo choices than what I can get at the gas station about 20 miles east of me. Everything I might want shotgun ammo for, they have.

 

[Mossberg535]

Son, they didn't have STEEL shot until 1980.

And if they had ? That was the point
*IF* you had had what we have today for both the 12 and the 10 gauge forty years ago and had compared them for all those years this may very well be a different discussion. You may well be sitting here telling us that you had shot both and preferred the 3.5" 12's.

So, you want to bury the 10 in history, but it will not die.

I think this is getting a little dramatic here
I never said any such thing. What Ive presented is that the 12 gauge has overcome its failings as far as comparing to the 10 gauge.

It simply patterns big steel shot better.

Is this fact or unsubstanciated opinion ?
And again, this isnt really the point.
The point is that we are discussing which is 'better' overall. The OP asked about the 10 versus the 20, but someone here brought up a 10 gauge, which I offered a response to.

The 10 will work, the 20 will work, the 16 will work....but the 12 works and has a much broader range of options available.
I'll not even argue the issue of whether a 10 patterns a little better with large steel....so be it. And does that mean that a 12 gauge WONT pattern at all? Can a person not take geese with a 3.5" 12 gauge ? Can they not do it well ? I believe Ive read many stories of them doing just that

So the point isnt whether the 10 gauge patterns big steel a little better. The point is with the 3.5" 12 ga shell option that the gap has been closed between the two. Especially with all the 12 gauge gun and ammo selections available.

And the overriding point is that if a man is looking for ONE shotgun, as the OP certainly seems to be, then the 12 gauge is THE gun to get.

 

[MCgunner]

Ive owned 20 and 16 gauges...loved them both. Never a complaint with either.
But if a person is looking to find a 'jack of all trades' sort of gun..something they can buy once and have it be good to great at everything, then the 12ga is the one to go with.

Well, there's the jack of all trades, but the master of none. The 12 is master of the duck marsh, though. In the right gun, it can handle upland, but not so much a master in an 8 lb pump. Different tools for different jobs.

And if they had ? That was the point
*IF* you had had what we have today for both the 12 and the 10 gauge forty years ago and had compared them for all those years this may very well be a different discussion. You may well be sitting here telling us that you had shot both and preferred the 3.5" 12's.

If I could still shoot lead, I might still be hunting ducks with 20 gauge 2 3/4" number fives in my old 870, which was deadly back in the lead shot day. If ifs and butts were candy and nuts.......

The twelve gauge 3" will lead BB was neigh on perfect for geese, but it's now illegal and I don't even see it on the shelves anymore.

I think this is getting a little dramatic here
I never said any such thing. What Ive presented is that the 12 gauge has overcome its failings as far as comparing to the 10 gauge.

The ten just shoots better patterns. I had the choice of a FOURTH 12 gauge, getting a 935 Mossberg was the idea, or getting a 10. I says, "Self, you don't have a 10 and this is goose hunting specific, why not?" So I went with the 10 because I ain't hunting squirrel with it. I ain't got a 28, I want one. I ain't got a stack barrel, I want one. I've got one wife. Some things it don't pay to enjoy variety, but shotguns ain't one of 'em.

Is this fact or unsubstanciated opinion?

From reading, I'm not the only one that knows this. My buddy has his BPS 10 now and 2 835s. We patterned his and my 10 against both those 835s. The 10s put over 90 percent in a 30" pattern board at 40 yards, the 835s closer to 80, a little over. You're talkin' about 85 pellets in the 10, better patterns pay off in this big shot. It's huge, almost buckshot size.

There has also been much written about shot stringing from the 3.5" 12 vs the 10 and the 20 gauge 3" vs the 2 3/4" 12, but I don't know of a good way to test this and ain't really that convinced that it's all that important.

 

[Mossberg535]

It's not just about the ammo, the gun that shoots that ammo is oft more important. Lighter gauges just handle better IF the guns are scaled to the gauge.

Ok, lets say its about the gun.
My old 16 gauge bolt action weighed at least 2 pounds more than my 12 ga MB 535 turkey does (probably more, I just dont want to exaggerate). I know because that gun was a bear to carry around in the woods all day.
My turkey 12 ga (in the pic before) is the lightest shotgun I think Ive ever owned other than the single shots Ive had. The stock is hollow synthetic and weighs pretty much nothing. The short barrel is very easy to get on target and you can literally shoot the gun one handed...ie hold it up to your shoulder with your right hand alone.
The recoil is practically nothing even with 3" magnums because the recoil pad is like an inch thick gummy bear (some weird gel sort of thing) so its comfortable to shoot any choice of arse kicking shell imaginable.

The gun is so enjoyable to shoot that my field model 535 spent most of the last season sitting around gathering dust.

If its the gun, I choose my turkey 535.
If its the selection of ammo, I choose 12 ga.

 

[Tim the student]

If its the gun, I choose my turkey 535.

So, can you shoot quail with that thing pretty well?

 

[MCgunner]

Turkey, fine, though I'd rather take my 10 for turkey. Doves, OTOH, or quail......

Don't sound like you're a wing shooter or skeet and trap shooter, so I guess my argument falls on deaf ears. Experienced shotgunners will follow my reasoning.

My 20 gauge SxS doesn't top 6 lbs. It's a little whippy, but if you concentrate on follow through and swing, you can overcome the whippiness even on birds like ducks. The pay off is speed to the shoulder and quick changes in swing and direction. Try shooting country doubles with that Mossy and tell me how ya do.

 

[Mossberg535]

Different tools for different jobs.

Definitely agree with that
Ive blown a squirrel apart so bad with my 12 ga that I had to toss most of it in the trash.
Only happened one time, however and it was because I took a shot I shouldnt have. Within 15 feet a 12 gauge is not a good gun for squirrel a 22lr would have been a much better choice.
So what I do now is make a little noise, get the critters on the run so they move away from me a bit before taking a shot.
Im finding that its more fun to hunt squirrel because I cant do what I used to do with my 22 and HMR17, which was find a ridge to sit down on with a squirrel call and pick them off in the tree tops without moving more than 50 feet in any direction. Very boring.
Now I have to move more, get in closer, but not too close. I love hunting again since Ive gotten back into shotguns.

by the way, please dont take anything Ive offered offensively. Im not bashing any guns or gauges here at all. I hope that no one sees that as the intent.
Im really just trying to show the OP that if its one shotgun he's looking for that the 12 presently is the gun to get. Who knows though, in 50 years we may gravitate to the 10 or the 20 or something entirely new. But in 50 years I'll be dead and wont need to think about it

 

[Mossberg535]

So, can you shoot quail with that thing pretty well?

Havent tried it.
I wouldnt mind at all having someone who does quail hunt give it a shot.

Now, are you asking me if my particular model is best for quail....or are you asking me if the 12 gauge can be a very good option for quail ?
The former isnt relevant as I dont hunt quail
The latter is, well, obvious given the right type of 12 ga shotgun and the right ammo selection...which we are sure to find at any Walmart

 

[Mossberg535]

Don't sound like you're a wing shooter or skeet and trap shooter, so I guess my argument falls on deaf ears. Experienced shotgunners will follow my reasoning.

Im VERY certain that they will
Its just that Im trying to keep in line with the context of the thread here which was comparing one gauge to another...ie 'which is best' overall in a generic sense.
If the 10 or 16 gauge had all the options like the 12 does, Id have chosen the one that did.

 

[MCgunner]

Well, my only point is that each shotgun sport has a gun that works best. 12s have done it for me most of my life as I'm primarily a waterfowler, but do enjoy a good dove hunt. I can kill dove with my Mossy, but do better with a lighter, faster gun. I find my Winchester 1400 semi auto to be decent on doves, fits me perfectly and fit is important. But, my 20 is faster. Upland birds, little as I hunt quail, there is no contest. The 20 is it. BUT, if you're willing to accept a less than perfect shotgun for the job except on waterfowl, yeah, I used to be a one gauge hunter, myself, even though I had 3 shotguns to hunt with.

Squirrel hunting now days, I like to handgun 'em. I have a very accurate Ruger MkII and a 10" Contender with .22 match barrel. Both have 2X LER scopes and out shoot a lot of rifles. It gives more challenge than a rifle. I've hunted squirrel with a .22 longer than I've hunted geese, LOL. Early on, my opinion was that my JC Higgins .410 pump was cheating on squirrel.

 

[MCgunner]

The latter is, well, obvious given the right type of 12 ga shotgun and the right ammo selection...which we are sure to find at any Walmart

Ya know, last time I was at Walmart, they even had .410 and 28 gauge on the shelf. And, 20 gauge was the same price as 12. I just picked up 2 four packs of 20 7.5" Federal bulk pack dove loads the other day when I reupped my hunting license. Set me back about 5 bucks a box, same prices as 12s were.

 

[Tim the student]

Now, are you asking me if my particular model is best for quail....

Nope, just wanted to see how you would answer.

 

[freakshow10mm]

Interesting comments from both sides.

The primary difference in gauge sizes is the amount of shot discharged. Larger gauges have more shot and thus denser patterns. A by product of different shot charges is increased or decreased weight, which effects recoil.

Every single gauge from the .410 bore to the 10ga shoots standard loads between 1200-1400fps. The difference is how much shot they push and how much they recoil.

By simple math we can figure a light, small gauge gun can kick more than a heavier large gauge gun. Similar to a 9lb .300 Win Mag versus a 5.5lb 30-06. That ought six will back up well in that configuration.

By far the two most popular gauges are the 12 and 20. Their effective range is about the same. The main difference, having already covered the shot charge and recoil, is the gun platform. This, as some have touched on, is just as important as ammunition selection. Some guns handle better than others. That is where personal selection comes into play. The shooter needs to get hands on and get rounds down range to weed the virtues of each. Find some friends and shoot their guns. Bring your own ammo. I'm sure a couple of guys at the range will let you shoot their guns if you ask nicely.

My personal preference is for a 20ga. It's the only gauge I own and use for uplands to small game to home defense.

 

[MCgunner]

20 gauge uses less propellant to push the same charge to the same velocity. That's because the case is smaller and pressure being equal with less propellant used. Propellant charge is part of the recoil equation and therefore is why the 20 recoils less even though both 12 and 20 might be shooting a 7/8 ounce charge. But, then, there are other factors. Recoil is not an issue in my 12 gauge Winchester gas auto loader. That thing recoils like a 20, in fact, much less than a 3" load in MY 20. It's sort of heavy for upland game, though. I prefer my 20 now days on doves, but the Winchester is sweet. More and more it's going from dove use to ducks. 2 3/4" 12 number 3 fast steel out of it is easier on the shoulder than my pump, though I much prefer the Mossbergs ergos and, really, I'm a big boy, I can handle recoil. The Mossy ain't SQUAT to that 10 gauge, ROFL!

Really, for me, recoil is a non-issue. It's about the handling of the gun and in the case of geese that don't require quick handling, but require a lot of killing, the pattern density with big shot charges.

Again, different jobs, different tools.

 

[Mossberg535]

Ya know, last time I was at Walmart, they even had .410 and 28 gauge on the shelf.

I think Ive honestly been seeing more 28 gauge on the shelves than 410s, which I thought was odd. Maybe more 410 is being bought ?
Ive seen both on the shelves at different stores, along with some 16's, but one thing I never miss is the skid loads of 12s, even at wally world.
I just enjoy knowing that Im going to have a lot of options and theres always a lot in stock for the 12. I dont have to ever even consider (so far) going elsewhere or buying online...its all there at WM.
Even when I couldnt find a single box of 22lr anywhere earlier this year (WM, kmart, even Vances a few times) 12 gauge ammo was plentiful.

And, 20 gauge was the same price as 12. I just picked up 2 four packs of 20 7.5" Federal bulk pack dove loads the other day when I reupped my hunting license. Set me back about 5 bucks a box, same prices as 12s were.

Tell you what kills me is 410 prices. I was looking really intently at getting a 20 gauge for the wife at that point
She surprised me though because she'd never shot a shotgun in her life, but she wanted to try the 12. She was shooting some pretty heavy loads and even a few magnums and not even flinching. It was that recoil pad, Ive no doubt. That thing is amazing. I'd like to find another one just like it for my field model.

 

[Mossberg535]

Nope, just wanted to see how you would answer.

oh no, a pop quiz... Did I fail ???

 

[MCgunner]

Well, I've killed teal, even, with the .410, but let's get real. ROFL! I have a 10" .410 barrel for my contender that's fun, but I don't serious hunt with it, it's just a lot of fun. I have shot rabbit and starlings and such with it just bummin' around.

16 gauge, now THERE'S your dead gauge. No 3" option, no steel, I mean, it just doesn't fit a niche between 12 and 20 and, truth be told, I don't think it really ever did. I don't know if there's a gun available for it anymore, either. Some claim the prefer it in a 20 gauge scaled gun. I can see that, but kinda prefer a 20 in a 20 gauge scaled gun. I had one, still have it, old single shot my uncle gave me when i started goose hunting cause it beat my 20 gauge I was hunting ducks and doves with. I could get BB or 2 lead for it at the time and that's history. LOL It has a 30" full choke barrel. I haven't even fired that old gun in 25 years, but it's got memories. My first geese were bagged with that shotgun. Actually, that memory is almost as important to me as my first deer.

28 has some real advantages in guns that are proportioned to the gauge. I can't really say I'd prefer it to a 20, but then, I've never hunted with a 28. I've handled 'em and shot a few clays with one, but not enough experience. The 20 is really light and quick, though, and for sure the ammo is more affordable. If you get one for a wife, don't get the single shot H&R. There's one 20 gauge that kicks. I got one for my daughter and she preferred shooting my Winchester 12 gauge w/ 1 ounce loads. The H&R might weigh 4 lbs. I don't know, but it's really light and that hurt it. My little double is at least a pound heavier and makes all the difference.

 

[freakshow10mm]

My first gun ever was a NEF Pardner 20ga single shot. Even with 7/8oz loads as a youngster it was a handful with a slip on pad.

 

[Tim the student]

oh no, a pop quiz... Did I fail ???

There are no right or wrong answers, only how you feel.

Seriously, I was just curious.

 

[Mossberg535]

16 gauge, now THERE'S your dead gauge. No 3" option, no steel, I mean, it just doesn't fit a niche between 12 and 20 and, truth be told, I don't think it really ever did.

The 16 dying seems really odd to me because when I was young thats all I ever heard about as far as waterfowl hunters. One would think that the 16 would have had a pretty good selection of steel at some point.
I wonder if it was consumer buying or manufacturers steering towards the 12 and 20 that caused the 16 to lose ground ?
I mean, I based my decision on variety and availability and cost of ammo. If the ammo makers pump out tons of one shell or another people like me will run with the rest of the lemmings

 

[Mossberg535]

My little double is at least a pound heavier and makes all the difference.

I read somewhere where guys have drilled out their wood stocks a bit and put in a little lead to add some weight to help with recoil. Sounds reasonable, though I personally like the lighter weight and a good recoil pad instead. Course, Im not what I once was physically...and I whine a lot

 

[Mossberg535]

There are no right or wrong answers, only how you feel.

Seriously, I was just curious.

I really hope no one is taking any offense at my posts or anything. I really dont dislike ANY shotgun or gauge. Its just that manufacturers are really putting a lot of effort into the 12 for whatever reason, which Im betting is why the military and police forces choose the 12.
Like the 9mm, 380 or 357/38, they are just so common and well known that they sell great and its less of a risk to put all that effort into them.
I sold an old box of 357 silvertips to a gunstore a couple years ago. Full box, pristine condition. I couldnt believe the price the guy offered for them. He ended up giving me $10 cash and trading me a $20 zippered case for my field 535 (needed a long case).
I figure with mark up on the case he probably gave me $20 total....for a box of ammo that wasnt new.
Then I saw that silvertips were going (at that time in that area) for $60 a box. The demand for 38 and 357 SD ammo was going crazy.