2000ftlbs of M.E. from .44mag, possible?

[Boom-stick]

Looking for a way to stoke up my .44mag carbine (12" barrel) to "deer legal" levels for hunting in the UK.
Minimum legal requirement is around 1700-1750ftlbs with over 1800ftlbs being a better option and 2000ftlbs clearly legal.

I've seen a load comprising of H110 and a 210grn jackets bullets that should give 1720ftlbs, but is still only on the cusp.


I have even considered using cut down .444 marlin brass , or cut down and re-worked .303 brass, to benefit from the thicker case walls?

Anyone had success along these lines, perhaps with something closer to .454casull loads.

Dan

 

[griff383]

I know theres a new powder out there that is supposed to give extra velocity with no added pressure. The guy at Cabelas was showing me chrono results from classic powders vs the new one and IIRC it was nearly a 200fps gain keeping all other variables the same. Pressure signs were alot lower as well as slightly reduced recoil. I picked up a pound of it but never got a chance to try it in my 44mag so I cant personally comment but it would be worth a try.

The powder is Alliant 300MP, good luck in your quest

 

[Asherdan]

Go ahead and take a read of what Joe over at Real Guns has been working on with the newish Ruger K77/44. If your carbine isn't in the same strength of action window do not use this data.

Your "carbine" is going to determine what we can recommend here, give us some more detail.

 

[Gryffydd]

Thicker case walls means less internal volume which means even more pressure.

 

[Oic0]

Thats gonna be hard from a 12 inch barrel. Buffalo bore sells some they claim is 1950fpe but that is from a 18.5 inch Marlin. Its too bad your government thinks deer are armored and doesn't understand bullet diameter and momentum. Here it is state by state and a lot of states are even worse off

What is the gun anyhow? one of those rossi mares legs?

 

[Sheepdog1968]

Two things I would look for:

There's a website that has measured muzzel velocity of a TC Contendor starting with 18" barrels for several different ammo types. Then they saw off an inch and repeat. I think they go all the way down to 2" barrels. I think the website had "inchbyinch" in it and I can't quickly find it. They did this for just about evey pistol caliber and are working on doing for rifles.

Between that data and Garret bullets (he only does 44 mag and 45-70 so he knows whats capable more than anyone else), you should be able to guestimate if it's possible.

 

[gamestalker]

I recently got the new Alliant reloader guide in the mail a couple of weeks ago, and saw the 300MP reloading data for those mag. cartridges was really good. I was really impressed with the pressures being so low and the velocities up. Good job Alliant!

 

[357 Terms]

How big do those deer get over there? I still use a 357 pretty effectivly, handloads of course. 1650fps with a 180gr XTP bullet outa my 18.5in Marlin is plenty with Decent shot placement.

 

[scott5]

Hey Sheepdog,
I found the site you were looking for at :http://www.ballisticsbytheinch.com/results.html

It's a great site BTW.

 

[ArchAngelCD]

Lil'Gun might get you there but a longer barrel will help too.

 

[GooseGestapo]

1,750ft/lbs is possible from a 10" bbl with either a 200g or 240gr jacketed bullet with either H110 or Hodgdon Lil'Gun. 2,000ft/lbs is over the top..... even for a 20"bbl. Due to a number of factors, the heavier bullets will get lower velocities and yeild lower energy figures as relates to ft./lbs. A heavier bullet is more effective due to greater momentum (lb/ft.) But, thats not the issue at hand......

But, who's to know? I seriously doubt that anyones going to chronograph your ammo (besides you).

I'm retired from a state agency that required a minimum of 500ft/lbs of energy for deer hunting for many years.(handguns). To my knowledge, I was the only enforcement officer that ever owned, or knew how to use a chronograph for that matter. (most didn't even know what a chronograph was, save for a "watch" function. We only went by the manufacturers "published" data. At that, only one manufacturer claimed to have a load that met the "minimum" for the .357magnum. (Georgia Arms) But, it in fact did get the claimed velocity, and from my 4" bbl S&W Mod686, at that.....(I personally knew the President/COO and he gave me a box of the loaded ammo for my testing/duty carry-A fellow NRA/PPC competitor) But, we had a "operational policy" that if someone was hunting with a .357mag handgun, that if they were using "magnum ammo" and jacketed softpoint or hollowpoint bullets, to "let it go...". Hence, neither I, nor anyone I knew ever wrote a citation for illegal ammo, in regards to the "foot/pounds" minimum. It was something of a "honor system"....

Like another poster stated, the ft/lbs figure is however a "nebulous" number for determining effectiveness of a bullet/cartridge. I actually assisted as a committee member that wrote the law that superceded the regulation stipulating a ft/lb minimum. Oddly enough, the .357magnum "handguns" were allowed, but .357mag "rifles" weren't legal....... Now, .22cal "centerfire" or larger, with ammo with "expanding" type bullet is allowed. We didn't include FMJ due to over penetration/ricochet hazard and other "issues"...... mostly political..... Yeah, politics! That, and "consistency" with other adjacent states regulations.

I'd be content if you can with a good consience state that the load/bullet combo meets the "Legal" minimum. A .44mag with a decent bullet (ie: a Hornady 240gr XTP, or Speer Gold-Dot, or a cast 240gr or heavier bullet) will certainly with a well placed shot take down any Roe or Red deer that you're likely to encounter on your island.....

 

[MichaelK]

Hi Boom S.

Here's a copy of a post I made some time ago about trying to increase the powder holding capacity of the .44 magnum. The following data was produced in my 18" Marlin.

I wanted to increase the performance of my .44 magnum rifle for short-range deer hunting with my 1894 Marlin. I determined that a 240 grain hollow-point could be seated out significantly further than the 1.610” OAL listed in manuals. I determined that a cartridge OAL of 1.850” just touched the rifling of my barrel, so I wanted to see how much extra performance I could get by seating bullets further out.

I first determined though that a 1.850” OAL would NOT feed through my action. The longest OAL that would feed reliably was 1.710” so I used that as my benchmark. I made some dummy rounds without a primer and filled them with water to determine internal volume. A OAL 1.610” cartridge had an internal volume of 1.52 grams (1.52 cc at 25C), while the OAL 1.710” volume was 1.74 cc, a 14.5% increase in volume. This extra volume suggests that I MIGHT be able to increase powder capacity by 14.5%. Assuming that 24.0 grains of H110 is maximum for a standard cartridge, I MIGHT go as high as 27.5 grains of H110 with a 1.710” OAL cartridge.

Since the cannelure of Remington bullets is positioned for 1.610” seating, a long bullet might recoil out of the brass during firing. I solved this by applying a second cannelure 0.120” below the factory one with a CH canneluring tool. My finished cartridges look like this.



I tested 5 rounds each at 23.0 to 27.0 grains of H110 at 1.710” and 23.0 grains of H110 at 1.610” as a control. I measured velocity at 10 feet, and accuracy at 50 yards. Here are my results.


Charge Velocity Group size
Control 1744 1.90” factory load

23.0 gr. 1717 1.94” 1.5% velocity reduction

23.5 gr. 1740 2.04”

24.0 gr. 1776 1.86” Birth of our nation

24.5 gr. 1818 1.87”

25.0 gr. 1825 2.23”

25.5 gr. 1864 1.51”

26.0 gr. 1887 1.87”

26.5 gr. 1901 1.50” 1920 ftlb KE

27.0 gr. 1949 1.35” Severe muzzle blast, too hot!
I expected a greater increase in velocity, but achieving 1900 fps was OK. The 27.0 grain load FEELS too hot, judging from the muzzle blast and the level of recoil. It just felt like the right place to stop. From its level of performance, and good accuracy, I am considering the 26.5 grain load for future deer hunting.

BTW, I have subsequently harvested deer with the 26.5 grain load and it performed wonderfully, though I wouldn't bet that the 24.5 grain load performs any less. I didn't gain nearly as much velocity as I hoped I might, but, that is the nature of experimentation. Stick with a high end published charge of H110 or Litgun and you can't go too far wrong.

 

[Boom-stick]

Thank you for all the helps guys.

The "rifle" is a Mateba revolving carbine.

I was looking at trying H110 with a 200 -210 grn bullet and see how it works? Although 300grn slugs would be my prefered ammo, just trying to keep it legal without buying yet another gun....

All the local ranges to me are pistol calibre only so while I know a 45/70 or a .308win would do the job, I'd never get to use the thing without a 90mile round trip.

Small Mutjac and water deer are legal to take with "just" 1000ftlb of M.E. but everything else needs 1750ftlb which in all fairness probably isn't enough for some of the really big Reds. I'll try and post a copy of our guidelines so you can see what we have to contend with and the confusion that goes with it.

Thanks again and look out for Alliant 300MP on this side of the pond

Dan

 

[Asherdan]

OK, that Mateba is fascinating.

MichaelK's post might be of some use to you depending on your cylinder. Lil Gun, H110 or W296 and an XTP 240g should put you on the margin of your goal.

 

[Boom-stick]

I was doing some reading last night and it struck me that 180grn XTP's might be the way to go, a heavy load of H110 should give 2200fps but I don't have a ballistic calculator to work out the ft/lbs?

I think if can at least find some published data giving the figures I need then that should at least satisfy the 'powers that be', then at a least I've covered myself, even if a slightly mildered load is actually used on the day.

We *HAVE* to use expanding ammo for all hunting over here, but if I had a choice, it'd be something like a hard cast 310grn Oregon Trail Trueshot.

 

[Sheepdog1968]

Hey Sheepdog,
I found the site you were looking for at :http://www.ballisticsbytheinch.com/results.html

It's a great site BTW.

Thanks for finding the link and I'm glad you like it. It's a real golden gem of info. I put it up there with the boxotruth website.

 

[Oic0]

Small Mutjac and water deer are legal to take with "just" 1000ftlb of M.E. but everything else needs 1750ftlb which in all fairness probably isn't enough for some of the really big Reds.

Dan

See thats my problem with FPE limits. A light bullet at that fpe won't go deep enough to do much on a big critter. Something like... say... a weak 55 grain .243 load. So they say too weak! even though 400 grainer at 1400fps in a 45-70 would get the job done.

 

[ArchAngelCD]

I was doing some reading last night and it struck me that 180grn XTP's might be the way to go, a heavy load of H110 should give 2200fps but I don't have a ballistic calculator to work out the ft/lbs?

Here is a great link for a Bullet Energy Calculator I use all the time. It's quick and simple and provides 10 spaces so you can compare many loads at once.

BTW, that 180gr load @2200 fps will provide you with 1,934 ft/lbs of energy at the muzzle, more than enough to be legal.

 

[Boom-stick]

Thanks ArchAngel, for the great link.

Ordered in some H110, now trying to get some 180grn heads, they are HARD to find over here, most places only actually stock 200 and 240's, they might list everything under the sun but what they've actually got in the shop is a different matter....