20ga for Duty

[mnrivrat]

I have heard a lot of folks talk about the kick of a 20ga.

First of all there is a lot of good ways to reduce recoil in a gun of any nature.

Also - one has to get away from the mind set that you need to deliver a 12ga payload with a 20ga gun. A round of 2&3/4" #3 buckshot delivers the energy of 2 rounds of .357 Magnum handgun ammunition. Isn't that enough ?

My previous post on this indicated that I was not for using the 20ga for LE . The main reason for me is the potential for getting the 12ga and 20ga ammo mixed.
If all LE shotguns were made in 20ga, I wouldn't see anything to stop me from giving the thumbs up. Some of the specialy rounds now made for 12ga. only, can easily be made in 20ga.

 

[nugun55]

In my county you can find 3 Sheriff's cruisers working 1 traffic stop. We are saturated with deputies.

 

[MAKster]

While the 20 gauge shotgun might be lighter to hold, the recoil isn't always lighter. The 12 gauge managed recoil buckshot has less recoil than the 20 gauge buckshot.

 

[336A]

I can't figure out why people always have to compare low recoil ammo to full power ammo to try to validate their point, that is in no way a fair comparison and you know it. Yes there is no low recoil buckshot because everyone focuses on the 12GA. Then there is always the ballyhoo of a 20GA though lighter recoils as much as a heavier 12GA, but no one ever validates that claim with hard data They just put it out there as if it's gospel and in turn most take it hook line and sinker without lookin into it themselves.

There is nothing wrong with the 20GA and if anyone thinks that #3 buck won't do the job then provide the hard data to support that claim. As for the recoil aspect, the 20 gauge does provided less recoil than the 12GA and unlike most I'll provide a link to the hard data to back that up. http://www.randywakeman.com/FullRecoilComparison.htm

 

[tiamat]

Welcome back, J.D.

 

[RustyShackelford]

Mr Shotgun....

I'm no 12ga shotgun expert or authority on LE shotguns like Louis Awerbuck(RIP ) or Massad Ayoob.
I wouldn't carry a 20ga on duty. A 12ga with a new duty or LE type load seems like it would fit most needs.
Awerbuck wrote a lot on the topic of tactical/duty shotguns & Ayoob, a noted lethal force expert & sworn LE officer also has a few articles-books on the subject.

RS

 

[AI&P Tactical]

336A - Thanks for the Chart. Like you, I like facts, however post on forums often confuse opinions and preferences and try to pass them off as facts. This chart seems factual and scientific. I read over the chart and found it very informative. I couldn't find anything to show how they came up with it. It has to be some kind of formula and not actual shooting because there would be to many variables based on the weapon used. The chart is very concise which would lean towards it being done with a specific formula. It would be cool to know how they did it so if you see anything on that please post it. I am sure I am to stupid to understand it but would try and have fun trying.

 

[Virginian]

It's just a standard free recoil calculation. I have done it from scratch but using an already set up program is easier. A lot of them give slightly different numbers. Here's one that comes close to Randy's numbers. You have to assume a charge weight but if you've done any handloading that's easy and it's a small fraction of the total anyway.
http://www.shooterscalculator.com/recoil-calculator.php

 

[cromlw]

The only thing i can add is,, "IF" I had to go into a hostile situation and I had the choice of a 20Ga or a 12Ga shotgun I would pick the 12Ga 100% of the time,,Basically I would want the weapon that can make the biggest mess possible

I am a Plumber though not an operator.

"EDIT"
OK just thought of this,,If you had to choose to be shot with a 12Ga or a 20Ga,,Which would you choose?

 

[lemaymiami]

I carried and used a 12ga on the street for most of a 22 year career in LE.... and wouldn't want anything else. That said, I do respect the opinions of skilled 'gunners who know they could get the job done with a 20ga, if given the opportunity....

If I were a Chief or Sheriff, though, a proposal to allow 20ga. on the street by my outfit would never get to first base since there's lots of other considerations every outfit has to consider (and hopefully long before you're in court and it's an issue....). The stuff I'm referring to has little to do with carrying or using a 20 -it's much more to do with training, standardization (for maintenance, purchasing, ammo, etc.), and being able to defend your actions in court after the fact. Without doing one bit of research I'd bet anyone that there's ten times the research and documentation on the old 12ga as you'd be able to find for a 20ga used for policing, or combat, or.... Like I said, there's more to an armament decision by any agency than meets the eye, and I can guarantee that most chiefs or sheriffs spend a lot more time on the liability that weapons carry than any other firearms related proposition. Of course back in the stone age when I was a young cop none of this ever crossed my mind, funny the things you learn about as you get older.

 

[Panzerschwein]

I would much rather carry a 12 gauge as they now make reduced recoil ammo and the buckshot loads for 12 gauge are far easier to find than 20 gauge buck. No real reason to go with the 20 gauge but it can still be very effective for home defense needs.

 

[Styx]

I'd like to vote that, just like with civilians, the officers should be able to choose what's best for "them." What difference does standardization and power make when you can't shoot the weapon well or your best? That's like me telling my wife that she has to carry a 45acp because it's more powerful and so we're carrying the same round. If I ever had to depend on her to save my life, I rather her have something that she's comfortable shooting and can hit the target with vs something that's "more powerful."

 

[Gordon]

yeah I only know the real world anecdotal results but disregarding the terminal results of which I think the 20 ga. would be enough , maybe except in breeching, if recoil is the issue then : Dave Mccraken (RIP) responded to my post showning the Ithaca Ultralight Model 37 Deer Slayer I had set up for my wife (with a limbsaver) saying "umm Gordon when you get a nice light 20 ga. like that unless you use light loads the recoil is more vicious than the normal weight 12 ga." and he was exactly right! The big ammo company spent ALOT on managed recoil 12 gauge loads especially with wads and powders and the difference in effect between trans sonic and a couple hundred FPS full power loads seems pretty slim, except in breeching. Many dept. issue and train with the managed recoil loads which in a normal weight 12ga. are not bad, and you still got 9 pellets of 00

 

[AI&P Tactical]

I'd like to vote that, just like with civilians, the officers should be able to choose what's best for "them." What difference does standardization and power make when you can't shoot the weapon well or your best? That's like me telling my wife that she has to carry a 45acp because it's more powerful and so we're carrying the same round. If I ever had to depend on her to save my life, I rather her have something that she's comfortable shooting and can hit the target with vs something that's "more powerful."

I wish I could put into words as well as you did.

 

[RustyShackelford]

LE officer selection...

Fewer and fewer LE officers are now being able to choose what firearms they can carry on duty.

One retired officer I spoke to a few years ago told me the city's insurance carrier chose what firearms & ammunition the sworn personnel would be allowed to use.


Id want a 12ga short barrel, 12-14" with good night sights.
I'm left handed so a shotgun like the Ithaca home defense or 37, a 870 left hand 12ga or maybe a Browning BPS would be my first pick.
I like the Remington 887 12ga Tactical Nitro too but Id rather trick out a 870 left hand for my needs.
Id add the slick new Kel Tec KSG 12ga is ready to work the road. I saw a few KSGs in Cerakote Ti. Sweet.

 

[Ranger Roberts]

I don't believe making it an option for individual officers is an option.

1. Common ammo supply is critical.
IE: You have 12ga ammo in the trunk from shift change, but you show up and take over the car with a 20ga.

2. Plus, there is cost involved. Departments get price breaks depending on the volume of the order of the same ammo. Splitting the order into half 20 & half 12 would raise the cost of each of them by several cents per round. Which is big bucks on a typical department ammo order.

3. Non-lethal or special purpose ammo may not even be available or as effective in 20ga.
IE: Bean Bag, Rubber buck, etc.

4. It is Dangerous to have 20ga ammo floating around with 12 ga shotguns.
IE: A 20 shell in a 12 will lodge in the forcing cone, creating a bore obstruction.

Murphy's law is especially in force during times of stress cops are under when shotguns come out.

I think it's a very bad idea.

If you are too small to shoot a 12ga, you might be too small to be a cop in several other areas too!

Rc

I have to agree with RC on all his points.

To add to RC's list:

1) Most cops aren't "gun guys", at least not many that I know. There would be a very real possibility of the ol' 20-12 bang! by introducing another caliber to the mix.

2) That would be another caliber to qualify with. And a ton of other specialty rounds to qualify with (of you could find them in 20ga).
- sidenote to those who aren't LEO's. We qualify by ammo type in my dept (and I think it is statewide but I am not sure). So when you qualify w/the 12 ga, you would need to do it with slugs, buck and less lethal.
3) We receive discounts on ammo by amount. Adding another caliber to the mix would cut into our budget and reduce the amount of ammo we could buy for existing calibers.

Personally I would like to see everyone use weapons that are the best fit for them. Logistically I don't think it would be possible.