.22 bolt guns

[TonyAngel]

Hey guys, I'm in search of the right bolt action .22. I did a search, and didn't quite find the information that I'm looking for. Not trying to ruffle any feathers here, but I ran across more than a few threads of guys claiming to get MOA accuracy at 100 yards with bulk Federal ammunition. I don't doubt that they may have gotten one of two groups like that out of bulk ammunition, but I doubt that it can be done with any consistency. What I'm looking for is a rifle that will shoot MOA, with the right ammunition, all of the time.

I hope that I am articulating what I want properly. I guess I should just state what it is that I don't want to happen and you guys can tell me if my hopes or expectations are unrealistic.

I recently built a 10/22 for the purpose of shooting a local .22 match. It is shot at 50 yards with Wolf Match ammunition (a rule for the match). I haven't actually been able to shoot the match yet, but have been practicing and preparing for when I do get the opportunity. I do have my 10/22 shooting really well. I am getting pretty consistent MOA groups at 50 and 100 yards with it, but every ten to twenty rounds I get an inexplicable flyer. It's really driving me crazy. I am almost to the point of believing that the 10/22 just can't deliver what I'm expecting of it; and I'm not willing to keep throwing money at it to get it to shoot more consistently.

I want to do away with the flyers that leave me thinking "what the heck?"

So, my question is this.....will either a Marlin or Savage bolt action be able to deliver what I'm asking for? For that matter, will something like a Remington 40X or Anschutz 1416 be able to deliver? The 100 ring of the targets that I'm going to be shooting at is about MOA size and I want to be able to keep it in the 100 ring, assuming that I do my part.

Just looking for some realistic and experienced insight. This aspect of shooting rimfire is very new to me and I'm at a loss. I just don't want to buy a Marlin or Savage only to find that I should have bought a Remington or Anschutz; or worse, buy a Remington or Anschutz only to discover the I was expecting too much and could have done just as well with a Marlin or Savage.

BTW, the Savage that I am considering is the TR. I really like that Boyd's stock.

 

[ColtPythonElite]

I'd be looking at a CZ.

 

[Lovesbeer99]

I've shot a new modern Savage and they just put out a new sniper style rifle and they will more than meet your needs. I was using wolf and federal gold metal match ammo.



Anschutz has the reputation but I've never shot one.

 

[HOOfan_1]

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=571325&highlight=february+rimfire

pretty much shows what the Savages and CZs can do at 50 yards. I believe the squares on those targets are a bit smaller than .5 inches.

 

[jpwilly]

I've been very happy with my Savage MKII BV 22lr.

Here's a 25 shot group at 50yrds:


Here's some 10 shot groups at 50yrds:



100yrds I wasn't reading wind etc just shooting (and you can tell )

 

[benzy2]

Consistent 1 MOA at 100 yards takes a lot more than a good rifle and ammo. You need either great conditions, or a great ability to read and adjust for conditions. 50 yards has the same trend but not near to the degree as 100. That said, the competitive BR rifles will put the ammo they like most into the .1" at 50 yards with a good shooter. Wolf is good, but tends to throw a few more fliers than the better stuff. I wouldn't doubt that a few of the fliers you see are from the ammo and not the rifle.

Still, I would expect a great bolt rifle to shoot better than 1 MOA with Wolf. I don't know what your budget is for this project, but the used Anschutz 54 actioned rifles can be had relatively cheap. If you look at a position rifle, any that aren't the current model or so are functionally unacceptable to the top end position shooters, and can be had for cheap because of it. Suhl 150s would be another to check out. Nice rifle, amazing triggers, used to be able to get them for $500 or so but those have dried up a bit. A kimber 82G from the CMP may give you what you ask for, but may not. It's the gamble of the group but they can be had for $400 plus shipping to your door (no FFL fees).

As much of a CZ fan as I am, I don't think I would go with one. I don't have faith that you would see much better than 1MOA consistently, even with some trigger work and bedding. Maybe if you had an American action, dropped on a lilja barrel, and restocked with a more bag friendly stock you would see it, but at that point why not go with a Anschutz or 40x or 52? Savage and Marlin put out great rifles, especially for the dollar. But they aren't match rifles. They don't hold the consistencies of a match rifle and they don't have the durability either. I like both my Marlin and my Savage but neither are rifles that I trust to consistently shoot MOA at 50 yards.

I suggest you look used where you can see how a given rifle will shoot Wolf ammo over a card or two. Being stuck with Wolf would make me want to see how it shot before I paid. It shouldn't be too much effort to get a guy to shoot 50 rounds of Wolf for groups on a used rifle. Many will be able to produce targets that were already shot with wolf. This way you know what you're getting before hand.

 

[Picher]

I suspect you're shooting on the ARA target, which uses worst-edge scoring, so for all your shots to be 100s, you'll need a rifle that shoots .27" groups at 50 yards. That doesn't actually relate to twice that large 100 yards, due to the funny things that happen to .22LR bullets beyond 50 yards. To make matters worse, you probably need to shoot only one shot per bull, which tends to change POI slightly, due to the shifting POA.

You may need a dedicated benchrest rifle to accomplish the task. My custom Rem 40x will, but it's a rare one. It depends on the level of competition and how serious you are about winning. If everyone at the match is shooting off-the-shelf sporters like Savages or Annie 64s, an Annie 54 should rule, if allowed in a "Plinker" class, but ARA is generally unlimited, so you'd be shooting against some really expensive custom BR rifles and not be competitive.

 

[22-rimfire]

If you are serious with a sporter rifle to achieve this consistantly, I would be looking at rifles made by Anshutz and Cooper. Others ones to consider is the Remington 547 and if you get lucky, a Savage Mark II which is well known for very good accuracy. The Weatherby Mark XXII (bolt) might shoot 1" groups pretty consistantly if you do your part. The problem is that you can't just normally buy a rifle and expect that kind of consistant accuracy. CZ's do about as well as the Savage Mark II on a given day at those kinds of ranges.

1 MOA at 50yds (about 1/2" groups) does not necessarily equate to 1 MOA at 100 yds (about 1" groups). It is hard to shoot 22's well at 100 yds. I suspect the 1 MOA at 100 yds with bulk ammo is just cherry picking groups rather than an average group size or even typical groups. But anything is possible. Ammo choice is critical and as always the standard velocity 22LR will likely on average shoot better than HV 22 ammo at that distance.

 

[788Ham]

Tony,

My buddy picked up a Ruger 10-22 at a gun show 3 weeks ago, a nicer than factory stock and a shiny SS barrel. All he shoots out of that rifle is Federal bulk ammo, he tears the center of the bull up like jpwilly did with his Savage MK II @ 50 yards. To answer your original question, yes, the Fed. ammo suits his rifle fine.

Nice shooting jpwilly !

 

[HOOfan_1]

The Weatherby Mark XXII is Anschütz

 

[22-rimfire]

The Weatherby Mark XXII is Anschütz.

Yep, the rifle is built on the 64 action. It is an Anshultz with a pretty stock if you like the Weatherby look which I do. Got one.

 

[TonyAngel]

Guys, I appreciate all of the comments. I do, however, need to clarify what I mean by MOA. I need the rifle to be able to shoot within a MOA circle (.5") with the target dot at the center. The reason I'm saying this is because I've noticed that shooting a ten shot group into the same target is a lot easier than shooting bulls over ten targets with one shot on each. Is it just me or is there something about changing the point of aim that will throw some rifles off? I really don't know.

The match I'm talking about shooting is an informal affair, and they are using ARA targets. The range owner's intention is to hold a match that everyone can participate in, but there are those that show up with some really nice rifles. This is why one rule is that you HAVE to shoot wolf. It's just a way of leveling the playing field.

I just have an obsessive/compulsive streak in me that forces me to dive all into whatever it is that I take an interest in; and the 10/22 just isn't doing it for me.

Based on the comments here and other places, I'm thinking that the Anschutz will likely be the best route to take for me. I've seen the 1416s for sale for right at $1K, but the shortage of stocks has me a bit standoffish. I figure that I can spend up to $1K.

I have two Krieger barreled .308s and I don't need two. I guess I can sell one of them for around $1K, so it'll be a wash. I already have a scope for the project (Viper PST 6-24X).

 

[22-rimfire]

0.5" is not 1 MOA at 100 yds. It is about 1/2 MOA. You raised the bar if you mean that.

Is it just me or is there something about changing the point of aim that will throw some rifles off?

It is the shooter not the rifle. Competition is competition and you said everyone has to use Wolf ammo. 10-shot groups versus 5-shot groups at a given range are much more difficult. For one thing, you are likely shooting out your aiming point which makes aiming more difficult. 10 shots just adds to the uncertainty of shooting well. Sounds like a fun shoot.

I think you will find that it is 50% about the rifle and 50% about the shooter as far as how successful you are.

I agree with the Anshutz choice and that is the way I would go although my choice would probably run me about $1600 new.

 

[JohnBT]

"Is it just me or is there something about changing the point of aim that will throw some rifles off? "

Yes, it does. If you hold it differently it will too. If you change where the front rest touches the forearm it changes things as well. It's all about vibration, recoil and how (or if) you let the gun move on the bags.

.22 LR accuracy is typically achieved by trying numerous lots of ammo to find the one that works the best given the weather conditions. Since you are stuck with WMT and don't know the lot number (or will get different lots of it week to week), it's a crap shoot.

I like WMT and WME, but all I have was bought years ago before they changed the kind of powder they used. It was cheap back then - $15/brick.

Since you can't try different lots of ammo to test, you'll have to buy a bunch of rifles so you can find one that likes WMT.

 

[CraigC]

Based on the shooting I've done with my Savage MKII (heavy barrel, laminated thumbole), including six five-shot groups at 50yds with Wolf MT averaging .425" last week, sub-MOA at 100yds would be possible with such a rifle. Probably require bedding and some tuning but definitely possible. Not bad for something I bought used for $285 and have only changed the trigger. I haven't shot this particular rifle at that distance but I have shot my Nodak 10/22 at 100yds with Wolf MT at it does average 3/4MOA. It also shoots around .3"@50yds.

Above-mentioned groups were shot with this rifle, wearing a Bushnell Elite 3200 10x, rather than the sights pictured.



I would also be leery of calling foul on claims of MOA accuracy with bulk ammo. Using the much-maligned Remington GB bulk pack, unsorted and firing consecutive five-shot groups, my little CZ 452FS produced these results. Average is a half inch at 50yds. Wolf MT does about a tenth better but with more consistency. Even topped with the little Leupold 1-4x, which is set parallax free at 100yds.



A well-built 10/22, heavy barrelled Savage MKII or CZ 452 would make good rifles for your purposes. Although if you are prepared to part with the money for an Anschutz, it would surely remove all doubt.

 

[CCBPES34]

I have a Savage MKII TR. It's an amazing rifle! I had a .25 inch group at 60 yards using a tree branch as a shooting rest. It was a very windy day, and was shooting between 2 Vs of some trees. I was using Federal Gold Eagle 38gr. Hollow Points. It's a great gun for what you pay, possibly one of the most accurate, too. Also, check out Rimfire Central and Sniper's Hide, they're the ones who suggested the TR, too me. I'd also check out CZ. The 453 Varmint and American versions have Single-Set Triggers, which are great for target shooting!

CCB

 

[Danny Creasy]

Be your own judge.

I really prefer offhand and three position matches but I have a large respect for the bench and what it can teach. So, a few years ago I started benchrest matches at our range in Sheffield, AL. I chose the USBR target and even the USBR rules for that matter but did not really want to go with sanctioning as a USBR club. But, I started something that flat outgrew my BR interests. Some of the members really caught fire with all this and they wanted to go sanctioned. I handed it off to them and they continue to shoot and grow.

Anyway, my interest is solely in .22 Sporters with big heavy target and bench rifles leaving me cold. To each his own. I do find the data base they are creating for what works in the USBR Sporter Class fascinating. If you check out the USBR Rules, you will see that the sporter class is pretty restrictive. The kind of bolt rifles being discussed in this thread are the ones that the USBR Sporter Class is designed for.

Please take some time and review the last few years' match results in the link below. Skip our local bull and just check out the "Match Result" threads.
An Anshutz 54 Sporter still holds the club sporter record but on any given Saturday a CZ or Savage can beat the Anschutz. A Cooper came in the early days but its owner sent it back to the factory when it wouldn't break 220. It came back and still wouldn't. So, he sold it and bought a CZ American. Some rifles will deliver little groups but they just can't handle the 25 shifts in point of aim.

http://rimfireshooting.com/index.php?showforum=75

Keep in mind that these are real match results. The guys and gals have to show up and shoot in whatever conditions are present at the time (wind, cold, rain, blazing sun, whatever). They can only shoot once in each class and their targets are shot with an RO observing and their targets are independently scored. No online matches, no take my word for it, this is the real deal. Don't get me wrong - I shot the online matches on Rimfire Central for several years before I started the organized one at my club. The online matches are great - shoot when you can and when you want - cherry pick the weather - best of four targets - fun - if you cheat, you are just cheating yourself. But, they are no substitute for real "come to the line and shoot" matches.

 

[benzy2]

Based on the comments here and other places, I'm thinking that the Anschutz will likely be the best route to take for me. I've seen the 1416s for sale for right at $1K, but the shortage of stocks has me a bit standoffish. I figure that I can spend up to $1K.

I have two Krieger barreled .308s and I don't need two. I guess I can sell one of them for around $1K, so it'll be a wash. I already have a scope for the project (Viper PST 6-24X)

Go hang out on the classifieds at benchrest.com and accurateshooter.com and look for a custom rifle in the $1,000 to $1,200 price point. You may be able to get into a custom action at that price if the right deal pops up. Rimfires do come now and then at a real steal with Hall or Turbo actions. If you are looking for an ARA rifle I wouldn't waste any time with a factory rifle. If you can find one smithed by Speedy or Calfee you should be golden, though those tend to run a bit more.

 

[benzy2]

A 40x wouldn't be a bad route. Neither would an Anschutz. Both have a lot of performance and potential. If you can get one that has a replacement barrel and a stock better suited for BR I would take whatever I could find at the top end of my budget.

 

[TonyAngel]

I appreciate all of the help guys. I really hate having to make these sorts of decisions. I usually have a pretty good idea of what I want and need, just not this time.

I have been giving this some thought and it occurred to me that the need to use Wolf Match will be somewhat of a handicap for those guys shooting the really nice rifles. If the ammunition is prone to throwing fliers out of any rifle, it might be a smarter move for me to just get the Savage TR; especially in light of the fact that I have no way of knowing that an Anschutz will do what I want it to with the ammo that I'll need to use. At least, with a Savage, I'll be able to have it rebarreled to improve things if I need to.

I suppose it's all just a crap shoot to one extent or another.

 

[TonyAngel]

Oh, has anyone actually done transitions from one target to another rather than just shooting for groups? I'm just wondering what your experiences were with regard to the POI shifting with movement of the rifle. I'm considering the TR model. I really like the feel of that stock.

 

[CraigC]

At least, with a Savage, I'll be able to have it rebarreled to improve things if I need to.

This is true. That way you can get into it a piece at a time. Although Savage produces a very good barrel, so perhaps setting it back and rechambering it would improve things, along with a new crown. Any good gunsmith or machine shop can rather easily turn down the shank of a 77/22 barrel to fit. Maybe a Clark or Shilen. Or a new barrel could be cut from scratch, which might be the best route anyway. The stock of the TR model is the Boyd's Tacticool. Same as my 10/22 pictured above and it is very comfortable. I've got another for one of my Savages but have yet to install it. It's a laminate with a textured finish so it is very rigid and stable. Glass bedding would be highly recommended.

 

[TonyAngel]

Craig, I do like that Tacticool stock. I have one on my 10/22 as well.



I only wish it shot as good as it looks. I'm going to do some sanding on it this weekend and rebed the action/barrel and see if things tighten up a bit. I'm just really dissatisfied with it right now.

 

[benzy2]

I wouldn't rebarrel a Savage if it were me. Not that you can't do it, just that I wouldn't. If that is the price range/budget you want to start at, look at the Kimber 82G from the CMP. Much beefier action and the trigger can be worked down to 2oz. The "rusty" models typically have some dried packaging grease on the bolt that looks like rust but cleans up well. They run $400. The matches you shoot currently should satisfy the shooting requirements and there are many clubs/groups you can join for $15 or so to satisfy the club requirements.

I would much rather be rebarreling a Kimber action than a Savage. The Savage line is amazing for the price, but if you want to get serious it doesn't stand up. If you could hold the two side by side, it is quite clear which is a better target rifle choice. I don't want to hate on Savage, mine shoots great. But it doesn't shoot as good as my Kimber and I don't feel it has near the potential. Toss on a top end barrel like a Lilja and I think you will really start to notice the difference in action quality.

 

[scythefwd]

An anschutz will do the trick. So will a winchester 52d. In theory, a semi-auto can be made as accurate as a bolt... stick with the bolt for accuracy. Both of those guns can do 1 moa with the right guy behind the trigger. They both out weigh your 10/22 by half again. Your 10/22 might weigh 8 lbs, the annie might weigh more than 12.

An annie action is nothing without a good barrel. I dont know about the weatherby guns, but even if the barrel is crap you can always get it replaced. Go look at lilja barrels if you need one.

I have a mossberg 44(us). It's a good gun. It won't do that moa in my hands.
You will encounter problems shooting at 100y. Your bullets will go from supersonic to subsonic, and that does negatively affect accuracy. While your ammo is dictated for the match, you can use other ammo to play with. I recommend aquila subsonic ammo then.