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22 lr Stinger or Velocitor for Home-Defense?

Discussion in 'Rifle Country' started by RickyD, Jul 24, 2007.

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  1. RickyD

    RickyD Member

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    Hi, this is my first post here, but I've been reading this forum for a month now, as these forums have been a great help and provided me a great deal of information in my gun and ammo selection over the past month. Here is my situation:

    About a month ago, there was a gang shootout on my street, and my entire neighborhood was out of control for about 2 hours until the police could regain control of the streets. I was not a gun owner at the time, but my neighbors were, and one of them let me borrow his Remington 22 lr carbine rifle. The next day, after getting only 2 hours of sleep, I went to WalMart and purchased a Ruger 10/22 Carbine for home defense (due to cost and because the Ruger 10/22 was the ONLY gun I have experience firing... it was the only gun I felt confident I could hit my target with). I loaded the magazine with CCI Stingers.

    The following day, I went to the range to test out a variety of ammo. I have since purchased and tested the CCI Velocitor. In addition to these two CCI rounds, I have also tested bulk Federal and Remington Gold Point. The Federal is the ONLY round that has ever jammed, and it has jammed on multiple occasions. I will not be purchasing this ammo again (even though it is loved by most 10/22 owners).

    As far as accuracy is concerned, The CCI Velocitor has performed the best by far, with the Stinger coming in second. The accuracy of the Remington was poor. The Federal's accuracy was the same as the Stinger's, but the jamming problem prevents me from wanting to use it. My tests have been done at ranges of 7 yards to 25 yards (home-defense ranges). So it's a tossup between the Stinger and the Velocitor. The Velocitor is more accurate, which is why it's my personal favorite, but I've read other posts that say the Stinger is better for self-defense. Using the standard gun sights, I'm hitting 9/10 3" targets at 25 yards with the Velocitor and 7.5/10 with the Stinger. At 7 yards, I'm hitting 10/10 with both rounds. Under rapid-fire (firing all 10 rounds as fast as I could... took about 3 seconds from ready fire), free-standing (firing position) conditions at 7 yards (most likely situation for a home-invasion), I've managed to hit a 3" target 10/10 with the Velocitor a couple of times, but my best with the stinger was only 8/10. I think this is probably due to the recoil (the gun tends to rise quite a bit with the Stinger when fired quickly).

    I've read that in ballistics gel, the Stinger penetrates better than the Velocitor, but those tests were done with pistols. I think the rifle will have more power, and I think the heaver 40 grain Velocitor vs 32 grain Stinger will be more effective. Then again, the Stinger is a lot faster.

    The problem is... every topic I've found has discussed the Stinger vs Velocitor in a pistol.... any thoughts on the use in a rifle? I'm looking for knockdown power (if there is such a thing in a 22).

    All thoughts (other than jokes about the lowly 22) would be appreciated. Thanks!



    P.S. I'm currently in the process of saving up enough money to purchase a Mossberg 590 so this won't be an issue for much longer, but it would be nice to know for the time being.
     
  2. rich636

    rich636 Member

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    I wouldn't worry so much about the ballistics, as much as dependable ignition. I have always had reliable ignition with the CCI hard plastic box rounds: Minimags, Stingers, etc. A shouldered rifle can place that bullet where you want, just practice ripping that bolt if you have a misfire IMO.
     
  3. Kilgor

    Kilgor Member

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    Velocitor. The heavier the better.
     
  4. rangerruck

    rangerruck Member

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    Aguila makes two rounds which are better. the 60 grain monster, sniper subsonic, solid chunk of lead, and the new king of speed and weight, the Interceptor. This round is a full 40 grain round, that says on the box 1470fps, I get a full 1550 fps , out of my 20 inch bbl marlin. this is the heaviest , fastest, 22lr on the market. I did some experiment shooting with it , for a ammo dealer.
    Results were explosive, literally through wood, solid dirt, and you could even get the red mist effect, of a centerfire hit , on a P dog.
     
  5. mnrivrat

    mnrivrat Member

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    Welcome to THR

    You must realize that the .22 LR is not often the choice for HD use as no matter what you use for ammo it just doesn't have the energy levels to be all that effective. It's not that it can't work , its that it is unlikely to work well enough to stay safe if it comes to it.

    That said - use the heavier slugs to attempt to get as much penitration as possible .
     
  6. ArchAngelCD

    ArchAngelCD Member

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    I would go with the Velocitor over the Stingers because of the heavier bullet.

    I don't know what you paid for the Ruger 10/22 but you can buy a Mossberg 500 for $189. I truly feel you would have been much better off with a 500 than the Ruger. Why are you looking to buy a Mossberg 590?

    I bought a Mossberg 500 combo last year for $249 which came with a 28" barrel, wood stocks, an 18.5" barrel, a pistol grip and 3 chokes.
     
  7. brentn

    brentn Member

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    The stingers are actually of a larger case length then standard .22LR rounds, the velociter is of the standard length. Becuase of that, in a semi auto, I have a feeling that the stinger would 'potentially' jam more often. They are also loaded to higher pressures than normal.
    I don't use them becuase I have a match barrell on my 10/22, the bore doesn't like the length of the stingers.

    The velociters are a good round, they are coated in a 'copper' like substance that seems to be 'dusted' on. I thought at first it was a metal jacket, but its far from a real one. If anything, it probably decreases leadening but then you get I guess 'coppering' lol. Could be wrong on that, but thats just what I've observed.

    The .22LR's have real good penetration, the speed of the 10/22 is very good too, I can unload a 25 round clip in no-time at all with pretty much no recoil. Point being, if you had to actually use it on someone in the street, 5 or so shots would be no problem and I'm sure that said person would go down.
    The velociters are a very good round, with a good FPS, they are manufactured to high standards like most CCI ammo and I have had very few jams with them. The worst was winchester hollowpoints, they were cheap and sub-sonic, so I have a feeling there was not always enough pressure to have the bolt function properly, thats why I had so many jams.
     
  8. RickyD

    RickyD Member

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    Speaking of a 25 round clip... any idea of who makes the best one? I purchased one by Butler Creek, but it failed to operate with my gun.

    Also, the MAIN reason I purchased the Ruger 10/22 for HD was experience with the gun. Again... I needed a gun fast. I needed a gun that I could confidently fire accurately out the box without practice - that night if needed. This was the ONLY gun that I had any experience with. Therefore it was the only gun that even came into consideration. In the past month, I have gone to bed to the sound of gun-fire 2-3 nights a week. (yes... a move out of this hell-hole is planned at the end of August)

    Finally, the reason I plan on buying a Mossberg 590 next when perhaps a 500 would do just fine... well... a 590 is so much cooler. And besides, I only want to buy one shotgun. Might as well buy the best.

    For my present situation, civil unrest - that is, armed gang members running around my house shooting guns - is not only a real threat, it has actually happened before. This is what I need to defend against. This is why a Mossberg 590 makes more sense than a normal 500. It has a ghost sight, and the extra 3 shots (9 round capacity vs. 6) could make a big difference. Plus I'm getting the 50668 (with SpeedFeed) for an additional 4 easily loaded rounds.
     
  9. yongxingfreesty

    yongxingfreesty Member

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    since this is all u have, get a 25rnd butler creek magazine and make sure to hit them 10 times to kill.
     
  10. nemoaz

    nemoaz member

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    Check out the rimfirecentral.com for a very active 10/22 group. None of them like the BC mags but I forget who they recommend.
     
  11. Rich K

    Rich K Member

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    Velocitors, at least in my guns, both Rugers, shoot like they have eyes.
     
  12. benEzra

    benEzra Moderator Emeritus

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    Either of those loads would be good choices. I'd go by what is most reliable, and if both feed fine, then go with what you shoot the best.

    The Aguila heavy bullet loads are great from a ballistic standpoint, but they may feed less reliably in some guns. IMHO, for a .22, reliability trumps ballistics (within reason), so I'd personally stick with the CCI.

    And I personally think you did the right thing by going with something you know you can shoot well now. On a per-shot basis, it doesn't have the incapacitation potential of a shotgun (a 12-gauge is .729 caliber, FWIW), but it is easier to shoot well and IMHO is effective enough.

    I would keep trying to find good magazines, though.
     
  13. 22LongRifle

    22LongRifle Member

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    Rick

    Sorry to hear about the situation. I would say that the first thing to do is move out of the hell hole you are living in! But sometimes job location or money may keep us from going so.

    Like others have said, the 22lr is not the first choice for home defense. But if its all you got, then learn how to use it. ALso, its a good rifle and ammo combo to practice after you get a better weapon.

    If you have to shoot a gandbanger, shot he one with the weapon and make sure he is put down. Chances are that not all the bangers will be carrying weapon. Maybe one or two, they are expensive and if they do have one, then they are exspected to use it. The one with the weapon is usally "in charge" also. If you take that banger out, the rest will most likey scatter. You have taken away their protector and leader in a way. Majority of gangers are cowards, that is why they use large groups and childish intimadation tactics.

    If you can find them, get STEEL LIPS or HOT LIPS mags from BUTLER CREEK. They seem to have the best hit to miss ratio. Just take the mags back and exchange them for ones that do work. Also try to load them a few round short of their max. If its a 25 rounder, then start off with 23 and work your way down till you are able to fire the whole clip.

    Also stay away form standard and subsonic ammo. High and Hyper velocity 22lr ammo in your friend in HD. And as stated before, use the heaviest bullet weight and a solid if possible. I personally use CCI stingers in my 22s when the wife uses it for her bedside weapon.

    Try to practice at closer than normal rifle ranges. You need to get use to focusing on a small area of a larger target, when using a rimfire. You want to put as many rounds into as little of a space as fast as you can.

    Not BSing, but my cousin can fire his 10/22 very quickly, making it sound like its on full auto, to the point of having LEOs at the range come over and check it! We cover out trigger finger with a Band Aid, and then just practicing rebounding the finger off of the front of the inside trigger guard and back into the trigger. In a way, slapping the trigger in a rhythm and speed that allows the timing to fire just as the weapon is finished cycling a new round and resetting the trigger. Yes, it takes practice and alot of Band Aids! His 10/22 only has a beter hammer and he polished the innerds, but not to the point of being unsafe. Mine is stock, one of the few 10/22s they escaped the factory without a 20# trigger! His has a $150 reddot on top and a Carbon Fiber barrel and tacticool stock. Mine is completetly stock and I took to sights, both front and back off of mine, my wife has a $30 Wal Mart reddot on hers. He and I train with them weekly, and can put three to four rounds into a 2" area at a distance of seven yards. He can due it quicker, but he is 20 and I'm 37. We do not use sights, just "point firing" using our eyes as the guide for the bullets (his reddot is turned off). This calls for a more upright posittion of your head on the stock. We both use the STEEL LIPs from Butler Creek, but only normally put 20 rounds into them for practice.

    Get your Mossberg ASAP! And the 500 in the closet is better than a 590 on layaway! I mean the 500 will due everything the 590 will, it just won't stand up to the use as well. The 500 has a few more plastic parts in areas where they might break or fail if used alot. But them I have an old 500 in 20ga, and know of many more in 12ga, that has standup to alot of heavy dove, duck, and squrriel loads over the years. But most folks only fire thier HD shottys a few times a year and put them back into the closet. Nothing wrong with that, after the initial training with them, its just that shotties just isn't as fun to shoot for most folks. They are a true affordable HD weapon.

    Rick, I hope your situation improves. Take what you need and leave the rest, when it comes to advise from boards. You are the only one that has to live with your actions. Actions you take will most likely affect a future of yourself or someone else.

    On a lighter note, welcome to the wonderful world of firearm ownership! Try to train with your weapons as much as you can. This can mean dry firing at home to range time. Also try to stick with longguns for home defense. Handguns have a place, but they take more training and a higher degree of skill that most new guys don't have at first. But please go and buy one and practice with it as soon as you get a good HD shotty and get every possible add on for your 10/22!

    22lr
     
  14. pete f

    pete f Member

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    for the same money as that ruger, you could have bought a shotgun.


    you say you will buy a 500, why? if you want the best, get an 870. PERIOD.


    Rimfires are never recommended for HD as they do not have the same reliability as centerfire ammo. I would offer that the Remington 870 can be found almost anywhere used for under 200 and usually right around 150 for worn but still usable versions. A shotgun will have ten or more times the energy than a .22 has. It will have nearly 20 times the lead going down range with every trigger pull. (there are 437.5 grains in an ounce. and most heavy buckshot loads are 1 3/4 ounces. or about 765 grains, or 19+ times 40 grains of a .22) Which would you rather have.

    Older 870s out there have no plastic and are all fully machined and if you are old enough to buy one, then you are too old to ever wear one out by shooting it. Remington used to have one that had fired something like 2 million rounds, in the ammo dept. It was still working last time I was at the factory.

    Do not worry about recoil, there is not a healthy grown man on the planet who can not manage the recoil of a 12 guage.
     
  15. bartsimpson123844

    bartsimpson123844 Member

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    "This is why a Mossberg 590 makes more sense than a normal 500. It has a ghost sight, and the extra 3 shots (9 round capacity vs. 6) could make a big difference. Plus I'm getting the 50668 (with SpeedFeed) for an additional 4 easily loaded rounds."

    Hehe....yeah right. Who needs 13 rounds from a shotgun for HD? That's insane. The 500's six-round capacity should be more than enough. Am I the only one that thinks this is crazy? Why have you put up with these so-called "gangs" this long? I would have moved a long time ago.
     
  16. Coronach

    Coronach Moderator Emeritus

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    Which .22 for home defense? Ideally, neither. In your situation, the one that runs best in your gun.

    I would...

    1. Get a mess of .22 ammo and see what works. Use that.

    2. Save up some money and get a shotgun. I prefer the Remington 870, but there is nothing wrong with Mossberg. Go to a local gun shop and look for police trade-in pump action guns. They will look beat to heck, but they'll run.

    3. Load with buckshot, not birdshot.

    4. Continue to save up, and get some practical training with the shotgun.

    5. DO NOT SKIP STEP #4.

    Mike
     
  17. Fred Fuller

    Fred Fuller Moderator Emeritus

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    FWIW, I think you did the right thing in your immediate situation by getting a gun you were familiar with. A .22 isn't ideal for the purpose but it is better than harsh words.

    As to ammo, reliability in the gun trumps ballistic niceties like muzzle velocity or hollowpoint bullets. You need to feed the gun what it will run as flawlessly as possible. Experimenting with a variety of ammo is the key to discovering what it likes. At the point where several favorites emerge, I personally would go for the heaviest weight solid bullet available among the leaders in reliability.

    I once was forced by circumstances to carry a .22 (a Beretta Jaguar pistol in my case), and it was always loaded with 40 grain high velocity solids. Fortunately for me it shot like a target pistol, and i could shoot it reasonably well also.

    You have two primary considerations with the 10-22- placement, and penetration. Placement is yours to control, penetration is a factor of the ammunition you choose. Choose ammo that will penetrate, don't waste time worrying about expansion in a .22 rimfire.

    Stay safe, and get moved out of there ASAP,

    lpl/nc
     
  18. The Deer Hunter

    The Deer Hunter Member

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    .
     
    Last edited: Jul 24, 2007
  19. Stinger

    Stinger Member

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    I'm gonna have to go with the Stingers ;)
     
  20. Jubjub

    Jubjub Member

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    I would suggest that you stick with the Ruger 10 round magazines. I have had some extended magazines that worked fine, such as the TI-25, but none that would do so if they were left loaded for an extended period. You can buy a little doodad that clips two Ruger mags together base to base, and so have a reload on the gun.

    As to the ammo thing, Velocitors are great, and really cycle guns briskly. CCI Quik-Shok is quite a round, too. It's like a Stinger, but the bullet is made of four segments that split apart on impact. The critters I've shot with it usually display one entrance hole and four exit holes.
     
  21. Don't Tread On Me

    Don't Tread On Me Member

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    As for the questions asked in this thread:

    Velocitor by far. It is the heaviest and fastest .22LR you can get. It is the hardest hitting. **haven't read about the Interceptor...look into that, new product.

    A firearm is better than NO firearm. So the 10/22 isn't bad, it is just far from ideal. I'd even argue that the pathetic .22LR might even be more effective in the hands of a complete novice than other hard to use options. Gun has zero recoil, and when I took my cousin to the range for the first time in his life, he was rapid firing (dumping the entire mag) in about 2 seconds and hitting a 6" steel plate at 25 yards. First time ever. That proves to me that it *can* be useful for self defense. I don't think some perp is going to keep attacking you after taking 7 out of 10 rounds of .22LR to the chest/face. Ballistically, the 10/22 moves that .22LR as fast as it will get. Velocitors should do 1,300fps for certain. That is more powerful than snub nose .22mag revolvers, and those have dropped people (like Bobby Kennedy) with decent shot placement. The problem is, 10/22 might be the most reliable .22LR autoloader, but it isn't reliable enough. The mags and the round itself just isn't consistent enough to make me feel safe.

    However...


    If you are serious about self defense you will move up in caliber. Seriously, a gang shootout on your street? Go buy a more effective firearm NOW. If you cannot afford it, charge it. I'm anti credit card debt, but this is an exception since it is essentially emergency gear. It is something worth charging if you have to. Get something reasonable. You can find good self defense firearms for under $300. That is not a lot of money and can be paid off easily. The Mossberg you speak of is a good choice. There are others though. If you do not live in the socialist republik of california, I'd get a Saiga rifle, SKS or the cheapest AK I could find. If you live in an anti-gun hellhole, then you're probably going to have to settle for a good shotgun. Shotguns can be had for cheap and they are reliable and effective. If you cannot get a Saiga, SKS or AK - then "hunter" style autoloaders are much more expensive in the $500-$600 range and probably not doable. If you have the choice due to where you live, go for the centerfire autoloaders I listed above because they are more effective than shotguns, faster to shoot, less recoil and just easier to use. If you get the shotgun, take it to the range and practice with it. Get familiar with having to pump and shoot to where it becomes natural and automatic to reload after each shot. Do not buy anything stupid like an all pistol grip shotgun. That is about the most useless firearm on Earth. No gimmicks. Just a normal solid shotgun. Get the shortest barrel model you can find or get in that price range. You do not need to load it with magnums or slugs. You're just going to increase the recoil and costs of shooting. Do not use birdshot either. Remember Cheney?
     
  22. SaMx

    SaMx Member

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    for defence I would go with neither, but if I had to use a .22 for defense I would load it with velociters. I would also move up in caliber as soon as I could.
     
  23. blackhawk2000

    blackhawk2000 member

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    Where do you live? Got a news link to this shootout? Should make for an interesting read.
     
  24. roscoe

    roscoe Member

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    I would use the Aquila SSS 60-grain rounds. They are not very loud, and they penetrate like crazy. The only thing to be aware of is that, since they are subsonic, they are really a 50-yard round. But, they will really do the job (well, for a .22).
     
  25. Coronach

    Coronach Moderator Emeritus

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    You'd think. However, I can think of multiple shootouts with basically the whole neighborhood involved (mini riots, really) that made page 3 where I work...if that. If the media aren't too busy making something out of nothing, they're occupied turning something into nothing.

    Mike
     
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