22 LR Vs 17 HM2, 17 HMR, 22 Mag...

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saturno_v

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I already posted this on the reply to one of the messages I received about the recent purchase of my Remington 597.
But I wanted to open a new thread specifically to learn about your opinion on this....

I thought about this purchase for days...buy a 22 LR or one of the new .17 calibers or a 22 Mag???....but ammo cost wise it's a no brainer...even at Wal Mart any of the 17 or the 22 Mag cost at the very minimum 7-8 dollar per box of 50 if not more...no 550 brick pack so far (at least that I know)
At that price we are getting closer to a cheap box of 20 7,62 X 39 for my AK (or for a longer barrel SKS)... a bit less round count but a much more "deep" shooting experience.

And a .17 or a 22 Mag doesn't really change dramatically what you can do with it compared to a 22 LR...still underpowered for serious long range varmint and small predator hunting....I mean for a Squirrel, a Rabbit or a Prairie Dog the 22 LR is more than plenty....for a Coyote you may want something more powerful than a 22 Mag anyway....

I think the 22 LR is impossible to beat on the cost front...some cheap solid can be bought as little as $1.50 or less for a box of 50 at Wally World.

If you want a bit more oomph (not too far from a .17 or a 22 Mag), with 3-4 bucks you can buy a box of Velocitor, Stinger or Aguila Interceptor...

An excellent compromise indeeed, nothing come close in the same category.

What is your thought about this??? What are the real practical advantages of getting a 17 HM2, 17 MHR or a 22 Mag over a 22 LR???

Regards
 
17 HM2, the best round since the 22lr

Well i picked up a ruger 10 22, then bought the eabco 17hm2 conversion, and i have to say thats its one of my new favorite rounds, the hm2 only drops 9/10 of an inch at 100yrds, and the power of this tiny projectile surprised the heck out of me, i was smashing rocks the size of a baseball into little pieces at 150yrds, something no 22lr can achieve,, i own three 10 22's and two
17hmr's and one 17hm2, since i got the hm2 both the 22's and the hmr's have been sitting in the safe

here's a video i found on you tube, it demonstrates the the 17 hm2 conversion for the 10 22, and shows the effects of the projectile

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rs18TJN5FX4
 
Gunmaker2872

I did look at the ballistic numbers for the 17 HM2 at 100 yards....and they look lower than the regular 22 Long Rifle High Velocity, never mind the Velocitor or Stingers.
And you have a 17 gr. bullet...probably it shoot flatter, but energy wise at 100 yards it doesn't look that impressive.

The 17 HMR (the same case as the 22 Mag) is barely above the energy of the Velocitor at 100 Y....and still with a much mor elighter bullet (17 gr vs 40 gr)

http://www.cci-ammunition.com/ballistics/rimfire.aspx
 
I check online charts for a general idea, but you cant beat first hand experiance, with that said the hm2 is a fun affordable shooting round, I personally was quite impressed with it. But its not for everyone i guess,
but as far as im concerned it will out shoot any 22lr both in power and accuracy, and compares quite well with 22 mag and hmr, but with a much more shootable price tag
 
The HMRs listed in the small game section (where you see the velocitors) have about 140 ft/lbs at 100 yards compared to 104. They are also much flatter shooting.

I agree that for the money, the .22LR can't be beat, but they certainly don't win many of the velocity/energy/trajectory battles. Although 17s weigh about half as much as most .22s, the kinetic energy formula squares the velocity, so you can give up a large percentage of weight and make up for it with speed.

I did look at the ballistic numbers for the 17 HM2 at 100 yards....and they look lower than the regular 22 Long Rifle High Velocity, never mind the Velocitor or Stingers.

I may be reading the chart wrong, but this is what I'm getting:

The velocitor has a muzzle velocity of 1435 ft/s. The little HM2 is still carrying 1471 at 100 yards. At 100 yards it is faster than the .22 at the muzzle.
 
Waterhouse

If you look at the chart, at 100 yards the CCI 17 HM2 does 1471 fps at 100 yards and 82 ft/lb of energy

At the same distance, the Velocitor does 1084 fps and carries 104 ft/lb of energy....definitely higher

I cannot find the ballistics data for Aguila that should be even higher for their 22 LR Interceptor..unfortunately their web site is down for some reason.

Yes, of course, the 17 HMR is more powerful in every contest (unlike the 17 HM2 which is based on the 22 LR case, the 17 HMR is based on the 22 Mag case)...but my question is, the bit of extra power what practical purposes it has for plinking?? Flatter shooting and longer range?? I do not think in terms of hunting things change that much...

Do not get me wrong, if the ammo had prices comparable to the 22 LR I may have consideed the 22 Mag or the 17 HMR
 
the bit of extra power what practical purposes it has for plinking?

I can't imagine any. For plinking, the .22 will always be the winner. For hunting at 125 yards, the flatter trajectory may be worth the extra money.

My mistake, I thought when you said lower you were talking about velocity, but I now see you were discussing energy.
 
paper numbers are one thing, but I've never had a .22 do this at 50 yards.....

Blood and guts beyond this point :) .......
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I've shot smaller rabbits that when shot behind the shoulder, left only parts to identify what it was. Everything I've shot with the 17HMR so far, has always been a very energetic event.
 
Ok, There are many ways to look at this.

Just to let you know where I stand with experiance, I have three .22's and one .17 mag.

You can not campare a .17 mag to a ak-47 or sks they are not in the same class. .17 mags are a great coyote round if you are in the woods or something like that. You don't really need a high power but you need something more than a shotgun (this is the case in the woods I hunt in). Don't get me wrong I now a Ak-47 or sks can kill dogs but alot of guys like to use traditional rifles to hunt with.

Putting charts off to the side, in my experiance a .17 mag has alot more power than a .22lr. Once I was hunting coyotes with a friend and he droped a coyote at 100 yards. It just folded that dog up right where it stood, I don't see a .22lr doing that and I would never think of using a .22lr on a coyote.

Here is another thought. Some guys can't afford a high power for dog hunting. So a .22 mag or a .17 mag are a substitute to a highpower rifle to kill dogs.

When you start to use a high speed .22lr you lose accuracy. With a .17 mag you have the high speed and still have your accuracy. Now someone will probably have something to say about this but this is my experiances with my guns.

Whenever I have hunted small game with my .17 mag it destroys the animal. all rabbits I have shot with mine (using ballistic tips) it will blow a rabbits head clean off (will not so clean). When I went to full metal jackets in .17 mag it worked well but still did alot of damage. For squirrel I like to use .22lr standard velocity and a round nose. There is not really room for hypervelocity .22lr rounds for me.

I could probably go on with alot of other things to say about this subject (and probably will later) but I am getting tired of typing. I do love rimfire discussions though, and am happy you brought this one to the table.

Just one more thing the three main firearms I use in this catagory are CZ 452 Trainer/Special .22lr, Tauras Tracker 970 .22lr, and my Savage Mako 93R17 .17 mag.
 
This guy tested the Aguila 22 LR Interceptor Hollo Point and he was really impressed...he talk about "red mist" on Prairie Dogs with this load...

=======================================================

Building a Faster .22 LR - Aguila Does It Again!

Andy Moe - JHO ProStaff - Outer Montana
March 29, 2007

Over the past Christmas holiday I watched a movie called “The World’s Fastest Indian” starring Anthony Hopkins. It was about an aging New Zealand motorcyclist’s quest to break the motorcycle land speed record at the Bonneville Salt Flats in the early sixties, using his 1920 Indian motorcycle. As the story goes, the main character took an antiquated motorcycle, modified it, and then pushed it to become a record breaker. It was a great movie and based on a true story. I immediately thought of this movie when I saw that Aguila had introduced its new “Interceptor” 22LR hunting round at the 2007 SHOT Show. I can’t help but think that Aguila has pulled off a similar feat with the old 22 Long Rifle cartridge.

The world's fastest .22lr?
The author was wowed by the terminal performance of Aguila's new, higher velocity Interceptor ammunition. With muzzle velocities advertised at 1450fps, it's a screamer!

Aguila already holds the record for the fastest 22LR cartridge on today’s market with their Super Maximum cartridge that launches a 30 grain bullet at a blistering 1700+ ft/sec. In a market where “speed sells” this round has been no slacker and is one of their best selling 22LR cartridges, both in the US and abroad. Like all light-weight and fast bullets, the trade off for speed is that the energy levels drop as the velocity bleeds off at longer ranges. Aguila has tackled this dilemma in their new Interceptor cartridge and broken all records for speed and power from a 40 grain 22LR load in the process.

The Interceptor is offered in hollow point and solid nose, and flies at speeds of 1470 feet per second. Actual, instrumental velocities from a 24 inch barrel, measured at 15 ft from the muzzle, averaged over 1500 feet per second. Corrected to the muzzle, I’m guessing this would indicate a speed of around 1550 feet per second. Using the 1470 ft/sec figure we can calculate the muzzle energy of this brute at 192 ft/lbs. Compared to the standard 40 grain 22LR load, with the bullet traveling at 1250 ft/sec, we see about a 48% increase in ME with the Interceptor cartridge.

In practical terms, think of it this way: At 100 yards the Interceptor has the velocity and energy that a 40 grain 22LR subsonic round has at the muzzle. At 150 yards it is still moving faster than a hi velocity 22 Short bullet starts out at the muzzle but, of course, due to the heavier 40 grain bullet, delivers more energy. I certainly don’t advocate using any 22LR at extended ranges on game but these examples will serve to put the Interceptor’s power into a frame of reference the average shooter can readily grasp. Not only is the Interceptor the fastest 40 grain 22LR load on the market, it is also the most powerful. Interestingly, the hollow point version of the Interceptor’s bullet remains at 40 grains bullet weight. Usually when a 40 grain round nose is hollow-pointed the weight drops to 38 grains. Not so in this case.

The accuracy of this new round is good. At 50 yards, ten-shot groups from relatively un-tuned hunting rifles averaged less than one inch. Testing was carried out with eight rifles of different manufacture. None carried more than 6X glass on board and most carried a 4X -my favorite hunting magnification for a 22LR. While some rifles showed a real liking for this round, none showed an apparent dislike for it. The most accurate…? My Marlin 880SQ, my Brno #1 Sporter, and a JW-15 bolt action. My least accurate rifle was a TO3-78 rifle built by Tula in Russia. It averaged 1.4” at 50 yards for 10 shots. All rifles delivered minute-of-rabbit head accuracy.

The only problem I had with this cartridge was extracting live rounds from my tight-chambered Brno #1 and my custom Ruger 10/22. The Ruger’s barrel is marked “Live rounds may not extract” and I expected this. The Brno has always had this problem with certain ammunitions and would sometimes fail to extract unfired rounds. If you have a tight chamber in your .22 you may experience the same. Most of my field work was done with the Marlin, the Brno, and a 10-22 Ruger… and in the field the Interceptor really went to work. Over the past summer months I fired 1000 rounds of solid nose and hollow point Interceptor ammunition.

After 45 years of hunting with .22’s you’d think I’d be hard to impress. Not so! The rimfire hunting enthusiasts in the crowd will appreciate this: I made 26 consecutive one-shot kills on rabbits at ranges varying from 20 to 90 yards. Breaking my string was a single rabbit that had been wounded by a hunting companion. My coup d’grace shot from 50 yards off hit too far back. It flattened him for a moment, but the rabbit raised its head and began dragging itself so I hit it with the finisher. After that I killed a dozen or better, each with a single shot before I stopped counting. I have come to take it for granted that a well placed Interceptor bullet will anchor 22LR sized game and that confidence has yet to do me wrong.

Impressive results
This watermelon was shot at 25 meters with the Interceptor hollow-points (shown in prototype packaging in this image).

I usually shy away from graphic description of wound damage but in this instance it has a place, so bear with me. When shooting prairie dogs or rabbits with center fire cartridges you become used to seeing what I call “bio-technic” displays. Prairie dog shooters like to call this the “red mist” that marks a solid hit on your target. This is something you seldom see with a 22LR.

My buddy John Blackman was visiting me from Scotland last June and shot some excellent quality video of the Interceptor in action. After my first kill, a 60 yard shot on a very annoyed prairie dog, I did a quick instant replay of John’s video. Sure enough, you could distinctly see a spray erupting from behind the dog, immediately followed by an explosion of dust as the bullet hit the far side of the mound. Walking out to the victim with my Fuji digital confirmed that the initial puff was a spray of blood that painted the hole and the dog thoroughly.

I was shocked. If I’d been a swearing man I’d have uttered my soberest oath of disbelief. Like I said earlier, after 45 years of .22 hunting you’d think I’d have seen just about everything; yet I have viewed and reviewed that video many times, and the still photo I took of that prairie dog still lies in my office desk alongside my last unopened box of Interceptor ammunition. I can’t wait to get some more.


I won’t have to wait long. Centurion Ordnance has informed me that first shipments of the Interceptor are at the distributors as I write. They also report that distributor interest at the 2007 SHOT show was high so shooters should have no problems obtaining some thought their local dealer. The Interceptor can also be ordered directly from Centurion Ordnance themselves but, be quick. The Interceptor will certainly be moving fast.

=====================================================

Big Watermelon shot a 25 Meters with the Interceptor Hollow point

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Link to the article:

http://www.jesseshunting.com/articles/guns/category8/168.html
 
Hi Saturno...


The .22lr was the right decision.

The other calibers are grand fun to play with but the .22lr will always be your "bread 'n butter" fun gun.

Good luck with your 597 - and post a couple targets when you get to it. :)


:cool:
 
The .22lr was the right decision.

Agreed. If economical shooting and informal target practice/plinking with some small game hunting thrown in at ranges of 100 yards or so are the objectives, it's awfully hard to beat the .22 rimfire.
 
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You probably made the right choice for you. If you are squirming about the cost of 17HMR, 22WMR, or 17HM2, then you probably can't afford to feed one.

Other than the 22LR, these calibers are not really plinking calibers unless you have a thick wallet and don't care to spend it on the higher powered rimfires versus shooting 22LR. You can spend quite a bit on 22LR also if you buy target ammo.

In general, the calibers other than 22LR are for longer range shooting or out to about 200 yds where the 22LR is more of a 50-75 yd caliber. Also for hunting, the extended range is useful for some varmints.
 
You probably made the right choice for you. If you are squirming about the cost of 17HMR, 22WMR, or 17HM2, then you probably can't afford to feed one.

No it's not that I cannot afford it....I easily can but for few dollars more, frankly, I rather feed my AK or my Mosins....I get way more bang (literally!!) for the buck...

My other centerfire rifles other then AK and the Mosins are significanlty more expensive to feed so I cannot draw a comparison...
 
I traded away a 17 HMR for a CZ 452 in 22lr. For small game hunting and economy of plinking I prefer the 22lr.

The 17 is impressive, personally I find 22 a lot more useful.
 
I love rimfire

I did a search on the price of the Interceptor Hollow point .22lr and you can buy a box of 500 for $47.99, thats alot better than I thought it would be. I would have guessed $20.00 for a box of 50. It still has only 1470 fps compared to 2550 on the .17hmr.

Another thing I like about the .17hmr is you can switch from coyote hunting to squirrel hunting right there where you sit.

Don't get me wrong, it may not sound like it but the .22lr is my favorite round. Probably because squirrels are my favorite thing to hunt even over deer, but I think the .17hmr has some reconition that is over due.

Here is another thought, why compare these rounds? Why doesn't anyone compare .243, .223, 22-250, 25-06, 220 swift they are all in the same catagory? So I wonder Why the .17hmr,.17hm2,.22 mag, .22lr situation gets picked on so much. I think the .17hmr gets picked on so much because it is so versatile, and people don't like that. It means they only have to buy one gun and not two.lol

You keep saying you would just go buy some ammo for your ak or mosin, man that must be some junky ammo. Also I bet I can out shoot you (out to two hundred yards) with my .17hmr if you were shooting a mosin or ak.:neener:
One more thing you can't hunt squirrel and rabbit with a mosin or ak, man that would be a site.

I now I compared this debate to the highpower debate, but I do love a good Rimfire debate.
 
Clint

The AK and Mosin ammo I talk about are the Wolf and Hotshot..they are decent...not a match ammo of course...yesterday $8.99 for 20 rounds of Wolff 7.62 X 39 Hollow Point at Joe's Sporting Goods.


My Mosin and AK are fairly accurate..I doubt you can do better (especially with my 3 Mosins) at 200 yards with your 17 HMR...:evil::D:neener:

In its own right, event he 22 LR is very versatile...from low velocity subsonic rounds to hypervelocity full 40 gr loads.

By the way, I was not picking on the 17 or the 22 Mag I was just wondering at the steep difference in price with the 22 LR.

You were mentioning the .243, .223, 22-250, 25-06, 220 swift...I can tell you that I'm saving money for my next rifle, an AR in 223...I do not feel I "need" anything in between the 223 and my 2 30-06 rifles. And the 223 I think is the cheapest centerfire .22 cartridge.
 
LOL thats funny

Ok here is a thought, If I buy a box of say CCI stingers (box of 50) at price of $6.99, I would rather buy a box of .17hmr at $8.99 or $9.99 or $10.99.

Over all of that if I'm just plinking I'll wait for a sale and buy a box of 550 rounds in .22lr. I will admit you cannot beat the price of a .22lr, But it is fun to shoot something else every once in a while.

The speed and accuracy of the .17hmr is good to have when prarie dogging, gives you that extra reach and assurance also. Its good ammo for when you just want to kill something and not eat it like prarie dogs. This also keeps you from burning up expensive high power ammo.

If you are ever around Iowa we will have to have a little competition.

Good debate
 
Saturno V, I wasn't trying to pick at you about ammo price. For me, if I shoot 20 rounds of centerfire, I have satisfied my higher powered rifle urge. I do pay attention to price a lot. I have to.

Ammo for the 17's and 22WMR are similar in construction to a centerfire round. If 22LR were made that way, they might double the current price.

I watched the piece on 22 ammo filmed at CCI in Idaho. They produce 4 million 22LR rounds a day at that one plant. I doubt the demand for the other ammo approaches these kinds of volumes. Higher volume= lower price typically.

I also agree that the 223 is the cheapest factory loaded 22 centerfire ammo to buy. Before prices went up so much, it was almost priced for plinking.

You may be really surprised how well the 17HMR's shoot from most rifles. I was never bitten by the 17 bug, but I am waiting for new rifles chambered in 5mm (rimfire). Looking forward to that. If they don't appear by summer, I'm going to buy a 22WMR. I'm looking for the accuracy of the 17HMR with the power of the 22WMR.
 
22-rimfire...

Yes, of course there are a lot of factors that make the 22 LR so cheap...low cost of production, demand, volume, etc...and I will enjoy all of them (= cheap ammo for me..LOL)

Clint, around here (Seattle) I can get a box of 50 of Stinger or Velocitor for $3.99 at Wally World, at the same store, the cheapest 22 Mag were $7.99 (same price for 17 HM2, one dollar more for 17 HMR)
 
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past 100 yds, there is not enough gain to go from 22 to 22 mag; the 22 mag is dumping energy and speed so fast, it has lost nearly half it's muzzle fps by 100 yds.
the 17 hmr drops only 2-3 inches at 150 yds, and only 7-8 inches at 200 yds.
the mach 2 drops 5 inches at 150 and 11-12 inches at 200 yds.
17 hmr ammo is almost 15 bucks a box.
mach 2 ammo from ammunitiontogo.com is only 4 bucks a box.
eley/remmy mach2 ammo is hotloaded, and is almost 2300 fps from the muzzle, whereas most hmr ammo is 2600 fps at the muzzle, some dudes with really well made bbls get almost 2700 fps from the muzzle. that is 30.06 speed.
because i shoot a lot, i stopped with the hmr, and went with the mach 2,
since it only gives up about 300-400 fps from the hmr., and diff in cost of ammo is so dramatic.
the mach 2 trajectory is less than half a 22 lr, very flat shooting out to 150.
And the ammo cost is not that much diff.
mach 2 rifles will also shoot the 17 Aguila, which is a super cool round; it may
or may not be as accurate in your rifle though, you just have to try and see.

All things said, I almost allways go to the range with the mach 2, and for hunting the small stuff as well.
Oh yeah, one more thing, the hmr beats the 22 mag for energy, once both rounds cross about 80 yds downrange, plus the 17 hmr/mach 2 both have less wind drift than a 22lr or 22 mag.

I would get a mach 2...
 
I sure get a good belly chuckle everytime I read the posts about the .17's vs the .22's. It is a variation on the same old theme. We all went thru the "short Magnum" craze awhile ago didn't we? Cost Winchester (sadly) most of their business. I guess we can agree that if one wants to blow little critters into little fur balls at long distance and walk away with a tune on your lips then the .17's may be for you? If ya want to put a little more hunt into your hunt and possibly eat what you harvest then perhaps a .22lr would be in order? Upon refection I can say in all honesty that after all the years I have hunted I have never shot any game over 100 yards away. I have always enjoyed getting as close as possible before shooting anything. (I blame bad eyes:D) Course I have rarely owned a long range firearm.. I hope the .17's do well and I do see a nitch for them. I myself will continue to happily plod along "old school" with my little .22s.:D
 
I have two 17HMR's and one 17m2. Both of these are more accurate and flatter shooting than any of my 22's. I can hunt tree squirrel with the 17m2, usually head shots, but meat destruction isn't all that bad unless you're pretty close. The HMR really shines for varmints out to longer ranges. Yotes aren't safe under a 150 yds either.

Yeah, it cost a little more to feed them, but to me it's worth it.
 
geez, after seein what a 17g, .17 cal did to that bunny im a little curious if ill ever find one shot with my .204!!! (handloads) 32g@4100fps and a 40g@3800 ......plus just as cheap to shoot as my .22 mag!

i do love the lr, spend 20 bucks for 550 rds an can shoot all day!
 
17hmr is a grate night time coon rifle. it really scrambles there brains. one shot and down they come every time.
 
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