.22 rifles

[sicario103]

hhmm.... I really want to know why people keep saying "having a .22 is better than having nothing" for self-defence.

I'm originally from Venezuela where we have an average of 190 crime related deaths a week. The most popular calibers range from .38, 9mm and 357... and every now and then somone will carry a .40 or .45.... So trust me when I tell you that you are dead wrong when you say "having a .22 is better than nothing".

Now, say you're walking down a street and somone comes up to you with a gun (whatever the caliber might be) to rob you and you are carrying a .22 pistol.... what would you do? --- Ok seriously, If someone has a gun on you, no matter what you are packing (a 9, .45 or a bazooka) you are pretty much at a loss 'cause when somone tells you to freeze... you freeze.--- But for argument sake, let's say you saw him coming and you had chance to draw your weapon.... would you frankly tell us you would draw your .22 and shoot it out?

I been packing for self-defence since i was 18 (I'm now 28). I started out with a .380 Tanfoglio (till the cops stoled it), I upgraded to a 380 Beretta... and trust me I was paranoid about whether it would be enough or not till about 2 years ago I bought myself a 92 ( but just when I got my permit for it-you need a individual permit per gun in my country-, the government decided to void all firearm permits to "bring down" gun related crimes).

Gunsmoker, a .22 does what it's intended to do.... plinking or small games... Besides that it's pointless. Now, for self-defence.... its a NO-NO... unless you encounter a wild killer chipmonk.

 

[U.S.SFC_RET]

Andrew S Quoted:

Once, when I was an Army Seal I did this in Afghanistan and took out a whole platoon of communist gooks. They never saw it coming.

1. The Army has Rangers and Special forces. The Navy has Seals. Vietnam had communist gooks
2. What's an Attwater chicken?

 

[toivo]

What's an Attwater chicken?

I think it's something like a henway.

 

[The Deer Hunter]

Ive got .22 magnum.

i would defend myself with it anyday, one shot to the chest would cause massive bleeding so they would die trying to beat me to death.

HS-yes please

 

[greener]

I agree that the .22 is not a first choice for self defense, unless the .22 comes in a group out of a 12 ga shotgun. If I couldn't have a shotgun for self-defense, and had a table with all calibers, I'd start with .45 and work down. However, thinking a .22 isn't harmful and won't stop someone is not exactly right. I believe I'd get a stop with all 18 rounds from my Marlin or the 10-round mags from my semi-auto's. I can rip off a bunch in a hurry with either. I used .22's to kill hogs on the farm from 150 lbs to 650 lbs. One shot at 5-10 feet in the skull stops them cold. Couldn't find any penetration data for .22's on 2x4's, but the links below show they do a fine job on ordinance gelatin and filled wallboard. A .22 wouldn't be my first choice, but I certainly would not avoid using one.

http://www.firearmstactical.com/test_data/22lr/cci22-32stgr-r2245.htm
http://www.huts.com/Huts'sBallisticTest.htm

 

[Gohon]

There is a world of difference in "stopping power" and "killing power".

Sure is........ a 22 round through the eye or just about anywhere into the head will stop and kill you dead. A 50 caliber through the little finger will do nothing to stop anyone. There is no such thing as stopping power when it comes to guns. If you don't hit a vital area that will cause instant bleed out or disruption of the brain, the attack will continue. A lot of people have died by underestimating small caliber bullets and a lot have died overestimating large caliber bullets. The bad guy doesn’t call you out into the middle of the street at high noon. Ninety nine times out of a hundred you won’t see the attack coming. When you have to pull that gun it will be up close and personal. Someone’s been watching to much television.

 

[Ol` Joe]

Sure is........ a 22 round through the eye or just about anywhere into the head will stop and kill you dead. A 50 caliber through the little finger will do nothing to stop anyone

I agree! The problem is when under pressure how many are cool enough to aim for the eye or ear hole? The training most get teaches them to shoot for the center of mass, not a small hard to hit moving target like a head. Shots likely will be at close range the enemy may even be holding you while you fire. You won`t take or get time to aim, I don`t believe. Shooting animals unalarmed and calm dosn`t take as much as when they are all stirred up and the adrenialin is running. Take a spooked deer for example, they can travel hundreds of yards after takeing a good 30 cal hit in the chest. They die but, not as fast as we`d like.

A couple true stories about 22s and their effectivness.

I once worked with a guy, not the brightest, that took his semi auto rifle out of the stock for cleaning. He laid the barreled action on the kitchen table and the trigger hit and fired a round that wasn`t suppose to be in the rifle. The bullet entered his stomach, right center front and almost broke out the rear right. I don`t know the damage done inside. The guy -single- called 911, opened a 40 oz Bud and went out on the front porch and drank the beer waiting for help. Another guy we worked with that lived with him claimed he bled all over the apartment, couldn`t believe he was alive.

#2 A school aquaintance on leave before shipping out in the early `70s found a gal that liked to party. He drove a cousin to a party shore one afternoon with her in the center of the car seat when a guy pulled up blocking them in and opened up with a 22 rifle. -She forgot to tell them she had a soon to be ex-hubby!- He shot my friends cousin multiple times killing him, and hit my friend once in the back of the head shooting through the opened passengers door window. I was told the bullet traveled around the head following the skull hitting the jawbone by the neck breaking it, and exited. He carried his dead cousin into the hospital from the car after driving them 5-6 blocks there. He was hurt badly and spent quite a bit of time in the hospital but had no real permenant damage.
Now. I know these are probably oddities but, I doubt a guy shot in the gut with a 9mm or 357 will want a beer while waiting for help. I also doubt a man hit in the back of the head with a large caliber round will drive a car let alone carry a body after he gets where he is going.

Would I use a 22 that was on hand if someone threatened me? YEP!
Would I shoot until the gun was empty or I could no longer shoot? YEP!
Would I aim for the largest target and pray? YEP!
Do I think it could kill them? YEP, most likely.
Stop them if they wanted to harm me, even after seeing I`m armed? Don`t know, doubt it.
Would I buy a 22 for self defence and bet my life on it if something larger was available? NOPE! NEVER!

BTW,
I also knew a 20 year old kid that commited suicide with a 22. A head shot. It worked very well, one round.....Yep, it all depends.

 

[Andrew S]

1. The Army has Rangers and Special forces. The Navy has Seals. Vietnam had communist gooks
2. What's an Attwater chicken?

Somebody isn't familiar with the concept of exaggeration or sarcasm.

 

[Andrew S]

hhmm.... I really want to know why people keep saying "having a .22 is better than having nothing" for self-defence.

I'm originally from Venezuela where we have an average of 190 crime related deaths a week. The most popular calibers range from .38, 9mm and 357... and every now and then somone will carry a .40 or .45.... So trust me when I tell you that you are dead wrong when you say "having a .22 is better than nothing".

Now, say you're walking down a street and somone comes up to you with a gun (whatever the caliber might be) to rob you and you are carrying a .22 pistol.... what would you do? --- Ok seriously, If someone has a gun on you, no matter what you are packing (a 9, .45 or a bazooka) you are pretty much at a loss 'cause when somone tells you to freeze... you freeze.--- But for argument sake, let's say you saw him coming and you had chance to draw your weapon.... would you frankly tell us you would draw your .22 and shoot it out?

I been packing for self-defence since i was 18 (I'm now 28). I started out with a .380 Tanfoglio (till the cops stoled it), I upgraded to a 380 Beretta... and trust me I was paranoid about whether it would be enough or not till about 2 years ago I bought myself a 92 ( but just when I got my permit for it-you need a individual permit per gun in my country-, the government decided to void all firearm permits to "bring down" gun related crimes).

Gunsmoker, a .22 does what it's intended to do.... plinking or small games... Besides that it's pointless. Now, for self-defence.... its a NO-NO... unless you encounter a wild killer chipmonk.

I would absolutely draw. In the time it took for the BG to react I will have already shot him 2-3 times.

Would you not draw and just accept your doom?



With the low recoil and report from the 22 it is much easier to train with and it is much easier to hit where you need to. With specific training with it this will more than make up for the smaller effective hit zones.

 

[dragongoddess]

I think a 22lr can kill but so many here say different. So for those of you who say its usless how about we put it to the test.

You come running at me with a knife and I will try and bring you down with my Hammerli. Any takers.
Thought not.
Next myth.

 

[Coronach]

Hardly a myth. Ponder the difference between "stop" and "kill".

Mike

 

[arcticap]

The last I heard, Israeli Air Marshals are armed with little Beretta .22's and are trained to shoot for the head with multiple deadly accurate shots. I realize that it's on a plane, but in the hands of a trained expert, that .22 is going to become quite deadly and accurate. Multiple hits are better than misses, and hitting your attacker in the skull should be better than your attacker hitting you in the torso, right?
Also, I remember reading that .22 hollow points don't have enough velocity out of a short pistol length barrel to expand, expansion is reserved for rifle barrels only. That small velocity difference makes hollow point expansion a non-factor when shooting with a short barrel pistol for self-defense purposes.

 

[sicario103]

Originally posted by Andrew S
I would absolutely draw. In the time it took for the BG to react I will have already shot him 2-3 times.

Would you not draw and just accept your doom?



With the low recoil and report from the 22 it is much easier to train with and it is much easier to hit where you need to. With specific training with it this will more than make up for the smaller effective hit zones.

You would honestly say that you would draw your .22 on the guy?!

I've spent hours and hours and God knows how much cash in all kinds of ranges and with all kinds of set ups, and I can honestly tell that I can place quick consequetive shots dead center with ease at targets withing 10 -12 meters distance (which is normally the distance where shootouts occurs). But thats in the range, where I'm shooting at paper/metal targets that don't shoot back. In a real scenario, the "bad guys" do shoot back, combine this with nerves, surprise, possible innocent bystanders...... I can tell you, that I wouldn't be surprised if I scored marginal hits or even miss my shots or even fail to react.
So training or no training you just never know.....
.... Like I wrote on my prior post; when somone's got the jump on you... there's not much you can do.... freeze is .... freeze, whether you like it or not.
Plus, put adrenaline or drugs in the equation, the BG might not even feel you shots or/and still be able to shoot you back whether you hit him with kill shots or not.

So seriously, whoever wants to get a .22. or is wondering whether a .22 is good as a self defence caliber.... the answer is NO... plain and simple.

 

[U.S.SFC_RET]

1. Go and rent a power gun that drives nails
2. Buy the 22 short blanks from Home Depot or Lowes they are color coded for light medium and heavy duty penetrarion
3. Buy Power gun nails
4. Find hard concrete
5. Follow the instruction manual and wear eye and hearing protection
6. Strike the Power Hammer
7. Observe
You will get a healthy respect for that little 22 short cartridge. Designed to drive that nail dead into concrete. Hard, Quality Concrete. If that doesn't convince you that 22s are deadly than nothing will. Well placed shots with a 22lr rifle while may not be and or sound as intimidating as a high powered rifle will put a hurting on you in a big way.

 

[Bottom Gun]

.22 HP shot from a 2" pistol DO expand quite well. They expand into perfect little mushrooms.

 

[arcticap]

Thats interesting, now I know, thanks!

 

[Browning22]

sicario103,

Do you mean to say that if the .22 is the only option available to you, you won't use it??

So you would rather be an unarmed victim who was killed by a knife wielding wacko than use a .22 for self defense???

IMO a gun fight between a would be robber and victim will only last approximately 1 to 3 min max. and at ranges between 1 to 5m. It doesn't matter what caliber you are carrying, what matters is who will hit the target first. I have never seen a crime scene like above where in the perpetrator stayed, reloaded and shot it out.

 

[Fosbery]

Would I chose a .22 as a self-defence weapon? No way.

Would I use a .22 in self-defence if it was the only firearm available (or the most powerful)? Of course.

 

[Win70]

Interesting Drill:

With you and a fried at the gun range, stand back to back, you w/ your gun secured in it's holster, and you facing a torso target. Now on "go" your friend runs as fast as he can while you clear your weapon from it's holster and fire one good shot into the torso target.
How far do you think your friend will have gone before you have drawn your weapon and made a solid hit on the target ?
Now if I had a knife and meant to kill you with it, and was that distance from you, there is no way, ( NO WAY ) in he** you would be able to stop me, especially w/ a .22.
The average distance is 21 feet.
Happy Hunting !

 

[EvisceratorSrB]

A .22lr will EASILY pass through someone's skull and bounce around inside the cranial cavity, turning whoever's brain it hits to mush! Though, a closer range like <30 yards will help this transpire. As for drugs... pcp is what I can think of that will help you the most when survivng a bullet wound, PCP or not, your brain will not function if this occurs.

 

[sicario103]

Originally Posted by Browning22

Do you mean to say that if the .22 is the only option available to you, you won't use it??

So you would rather be an unarmed victim who was killed by a knife wielding wacko than use a .22 for self defense???

That's the thing, the .22 isn't the only caliber available, so why choose it for SD?! Hence I cannot really answer your question. But for argument sake; the answer is still no... I rather not be armed then to have a .22 on me when I'm being robbed because it just escalates the situation.


Originally Posted by Browning22

IMO a gun fight between a would be robber and victim will only last approximately 1 to 3 min max. and at ranges between 1 to 5m. It doesn't matter what caliber you are carrying, what matters is who will hit the target first

I completely agree with you on all the point quoted above, except for the range, which can go up 12 meters. On your last point, yes, caliber doesn't matter that much and placement is everything. But a bigger caliber would greatly improve your chances since you have to put into account the fact that you will most likely be under presure, nerveous and surprised. Hence it would affect your reaction and aim which will cause you to score marginal hits or even miss. So, say youre surprised and nerveous but you react in time. You fired 3 shots at him. 2 misses and 1 hits him on the top part of his shoulder.... Now the question is would you rather in that situation have had a... say 9mm or .22? Which caliber would have caused the most damage?
Even if you get good hits with a .22, somone under the influence of drugs or whatever won't even feel it. Even somone sober with the adrenaline rush might not feel it....... The risk of carrying a .22 is just too great.....

Originally Posted by Browning22

I have never seen a crime scene like above where in the perpetrator stayed, reloaded and shot it out.

Are you asking from my posts? I just reread my post and can't see it. But, yes, it happens alot in third world countries where the attacker(s) tries to kidnap somone that is armed or even rob somone that they know is carrying a large amount of cash. Though most will more likely give up and run away.

 

[Win70]

A bad guy runs at you with a knife in hand bent on killing you. You pull out your trusty "Hammerli" . 22 if you have time, and shoot him. Problem solved ? Unless you (STOP) him, he's going to keep coming and guess what happens next ?

Knife vs Gun:

Reliability: Knife = 100%. Gun = ?
Accuracy: Knife = 100%. Gun = ?
Penetration: Knife = 100%. Gun = ?
Reloads: Knife = none. Gun = ?
Stopping Power: Knife = 100%. Gun = ?

Is a knife a more deadly weapon than a gun ? = (YES) !
FEAR THE MAN WITH A KNIFE

 

[Browning22]

Win70,

At CQB, yes. Fear the man with the knife. But I would still rather have a .22 and not need it than need it and not having it..

 

[Win70]

Defensively speaking, you shoot to STOP and not to kill. If you shoot to kill and do so, then you are a murderer and will be treated as such by the court system.
A .22lr WILL NOT "STOP" AN ATTACKER, BUT WILL MOST LIKELY CAUSE HIS DEATH EVENTUALLY. USE IT BY DESIGN IN A DEFENSIVE MODE AND SEE WHAT HAPPENS ! ATTORNEYS ARE NOT STUPID.

 

[Hobie]

.22 is useless for self-defence, it has no stopping power.

The IDF bought some Ruger 10/22s for use in crowd control but found they were very lethal and withdrew them from that use while apparently continuing to use them to take out various ne'erdowells as appropriate. The cartridge HAS been the choice of some professionals and has been used to kill deer. All that aside it is likely not ideal but lacking anything else is pretty much better than a stick.