223 and Deer. Anyone actually had a confirmed good broadside vitals shot fail?

[z7]

My sister had a doe at 25 yds, heart and lung shot, 60g sp I believe. It ran100yds and didn't bleed a drop, and had no exit wound, all vitals were destroyed but the deer ran and didn't bleed externally, the bullet was not recovered, it blew up. We have since retired the 223 I'm favor of a 30-30 and 308

 

[777funk]

Thanks. 100 yards is a little long but not unheard of. The lack of exit wound and bullet fragmenting aren't a good thing of course. SP's shouldn't disintegrate so that's not good!

I shot one 2 years ago with a partition that broke in at least two possibly three. The biggest portion weighed around 35gr if I remember (60gr originally).

 

[H&Hhunter]

If I were going to use a .223 on deer I'd use a 62 grain Barnes TSX. No two ways about.

 

[H&Hhunter]

I've heart shot more than one deer that left no blood trail. When you destroy the heart muscle there is no mechanism to pump the blood out. No matter the caliber.

 

[777funk]

That makes complete sense on the heart shot thing. Never thought of that before.

I just looked up the TSX on Midway's site and there are a lot of good reviews. One guy posted a picture in his review of a good sized buck at 350 yards with one. Of course you wonder on the reviews how many are paid or staff with some of the skewing going on these days. But that's credible I suppose. Those things are supposed to hold together well since they're copper.

 

[heathkiks]

If you want to hunt deer with a .223 and it's legal in your state you should feel free to do so. If you want to hunt deer with a .30-30 by all means hunt deer with a .30-30. And know that with either you will have to hunt within the confines of the capabilities of the round. In the places that I hunt deer the .223 is an absolutely stupid idea, not to mention it is illegal for use on ANY big game in Colorado.

We hunt wide open western landscapes where a 300+ yard shot is the norm. We don't hunt from stands so all of your shots are from field positions. Rarely do you ever get that hunting magazine style, perfectly posed broadside deer shot. And the wind, she blows across the plains at high velocity. Therefore you need something that bucks the wind, has enough punch at long range and gets the job done from off angles. A .223 is simply not a good choice in these conditions.

In tight cover from a stand or a blind at closer range over a bait or a feed plot? That's a different story. If you've got the time to carefully pick your shot and wait for the deer to turn and give you what you need for shot presentation then a .223 can be pressed into effective service as a deer hunting caliber.

No matter how you rationalize it, no matter how many times times it's posted on here, no matter how it's presented in those posts. The .223 no matter the bullet used, like any .22 CF, is a marginal/minimal deer round. Use it with caution and care. If you are going to use these minimalist calibers be prepared to pass on shots that could easily be accomplished with an adequate big game hunting caliber. That's the crux of it in the most simple terms.

I grew up in Montana where shots could get long and subject to wind. My only gun at the time was a #1V in .223. I used 70gr. Speer Soft Points. Never lost a mullie, just had to be smart about it. That being said...... I now use a 300 H&H for deer, better tools

 

[H&Hhunter]

Gotta stick it right in the pocket.

 

[AStone]

If I were going to use a .223 on deer I'd use a 62 grain Barnes TSX. No two ways about.

I've read others that say the same, but they also rank the Nosler Partition up with it. Why do you like the Barnes better? Not questioning your choice at all; I just like to know the why's and wherefores.

 

[H&Hhunter]

Gotta stick it right in the pocket.

Because I've seldom seen a Nosler Partition that did not shed its nose on impact. When you are using a .223 you don't have any spare bullet weight to shed. An exit wound is what creates a blood trail. You've got slim to no chance on a blood trail with. .223 bullet that sheds any significant weight like Nosler PTs do.

 

[AStone]

Ah, that's interesting, and a great bit of info. Thanks.

 

[777funk]

I'd guess that the tsx would smooth over a lot of the weak spots with .223 (i.e penetration through bone, bullets falling apart, pass through etc). The reviews look good.

That said, I think even the Hornady 55gr Soft Point (cheap, simple, and plentiful) has been discussed as working (reviews and message boards). But I'd say it falls into the you better make the shot count category of bullets. Which isn't a bad thing... well unless you didn't make the shot count!

 

[jim in Anchorage]

Because I've seldom seen a Nosier Partition that did not shed its nose on impact. When you are using a .223 you don't have any spare bullet weight to shed. An exit wound is what creates a blood trail. You've got slim to no chance on a blood trail with. .223 bullet that sheds any significant weight like Nosier PTs do.

Agree 100% on Nosier shedding it's nose on impact. I have recovered many Nosier partition "bases" so to speak, that lost the nose forward of the partition, but the base penetrated perfectly.
Wonderful bullet but I use full size guns. I don't use a .223 on big game[and never will.] I like the clean fast kills my 30-06 gives me.
A 30-06 class gun can afford to blow its bullets nose off, creating hydraulic damage from the sudden expansion and yet still retain weight to penetrate.
Besides I thought the idea was to drop game in it's tracks, not create a blood trail to maybe find it.

 

[axxxel]

Are we somehow reaching the consensus that if you can avoid shoulder or heavy bone shots then the .223 is fine for the standard heart/lung shot placement? Myself I like to have a velocity/bullet combination that will go through the shoulder (or spine) if it has to. I can't afford to let those shoulder/heavy bone shots go.

 

[777funk]

I've seen a spine shot with a .223 and it wasn't a problem. The deer went down and was struggling to get up like you see with anything else. Never seen a shoulder shot so I (personally) can only speculate there. Be nice to hear more on that topic. My guess is that the copper TSX would make it through... but guessing and seeing are mutually exclusive.

Edit: for those interested, it doesn't look like the TSX is the miracle bullet in every case. This is for 30cal but would also apply to 223:
http://www.longrangehunting.com/forums/f84/barnes-triple-shock-disappointment-62461/

and in the reviews (mostly good) there are a couple failures also listed:
http://www.midwayusa.com/product/83...in-hollow-point-boat-tail-lead-free-box-of-50

Looks like some trouble with the TSX as well (which was surprising):
"First hog was not recovered due to no blood and ran further than 100 yards. All I found was a hunk of pork laying on the ground where it was shot.
Next up were 2 deer opportunities with the same results of no blood and hours of searching. Since this was unacceptable I bought some 60gr Blem soft point Blems and was getting sub MOA and built my confidence with squirrel head shots out to 120 yards. The next four deer were harvested with this combo with much better results for blood on the one that ran 20 yards and the others were DRT. I was also able to buy 200 bullets for less than 60% of this box of 50!"

and another on that same 70gr:
"After reading reviews in this column I decided to try these whitetail hunting this year. Accuracy was good with my RRA predator rifle with r-15 powder max loads, no pressure signs. Shot a 140 lb doe from a tree stand at 60yds. Bullet shattered the shoulder blade upon entry angled down through both lungs. Found the bullet under the hide on the opposite side. Not one drop of blood, deer ran 50 yards and dropped, still no blood. Bullet did a nice job, no blood bothers me."

and some other midway reviews on the 62gr:
http://www.midwayusa.com/product/59...e-box-of-50?cm_vc=ProductFinding#ReviewHeader

"Believed what I read, big mistake, these bullets shoot well but are way underpowered for big northern deer, hit one big Doe twice in kill zone behind shoulder, deer laid down after hit but didnt bleed out tracked 4 miles in 4 hour period, one of the only deer I ever lost, this is a varmint round !!"

and another notes a lack of expansion (.22 entrance and exit holes):

"I Loaded some of these up for my daughter to hunt deer with an AR. the day she did not go out I hunted with the AR. One shot on a nice size doe and she ran about 50 yds and died. There was absolutely no blood trail at all in the snow. if she had run into the swamp I would have thought I missed due to lack of blood. The entrance and exit holes were a nice .22 cal and very hard to find. I actually did not locate them until I gutted the deer and found them from the inside. Nice pass thru just behind the shoulder and the bullet completely destroyed the internals, Looked like they had run thru a blender. BUT still I will not use or recommend this bullet to anyone that is not hunting open fields where they can watch the deer run due to the lack of blood trail. My 30 cal rifles leave a hole big enough for 2 fingers in and out with silvertips and there is LOTS of blood to follow. I will stick with the bigger is better solution here and get her a 30AR."

I guess bullet failure is one more factor to add to the list that could make 223 a marginal round. Looks like most of the reviews are success stories.

These bulk Hornady 55gr SP's have only a few reviews pertaining to deer but all of them listed were success stories:
http://www.midwayusa.com/product/11..._vc=ProductFinding#pr-header-back-to-top-link

The others I've seen recommended as commonly as the TSX are Partitions (seen one and it was in a few pieces inside the deer), and Sierra 65gr Game Kings. I didn't see anything negative with the 65gr Game King reviews. But that doesn't mean that it's not out there somewhere:
http://www.midwayusa.com/product/19...-box-of-100?cm_vc=ProductFinding#ReviewHeader


This guy does gel tests on:
Hornady 55gr Spire Point
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xKWojqtvHnE
Impact velocity: 3,014 fps
Penetration: 10.7"
Retained weight: 26.9 gr
Max expansion: 0.425"
Min expansion: 0.335"

and
Sierra 65gr Game King:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DoRQzea-t0g
Impact velocity: 2,736 fps
Penetration: 10.3"
Retained weight: 33.3 gr
Max expansion: 0.591"
Min expansion: 0.364"


They look to have similar performance (penetration, weight retention, expansion was similar). I don't think 10.5" ish penetration is encouraging. I'd guess that's a no pass through in most cases.

For comparison (if there is one) here's a 30-06 165gr Game King:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wd7pImWDclg
Penetration: 16" (about 6" deeper than .223 game king which would mean through the deer on a broadside shot in most normal cases)
Retained Weight: 80% or 132gr
Max expansion: .92"

 

[TimSr]

Always hear "It's all about shot placement" which is true, but your area to place a shot well can be almost doubled by using a caliber that reliably shoots through heavy shoulder bone and gives you more angles that will work. Anything will go through ribs, but especially for young shooters, why not increase the target size with a caliber that reliably goes through shoulders as well?

 

[H&Hhunter]

I'd guess that the tsx would smooth over a lot of the weak spots with .223 (i.e penetration through bone, bullets falling apart, pass through etc). The reviews look good.

That said, I think even the Hornady 55gr Soft Point (cheap, simple, and plentiful) has been discussed as working (reviews and message boards). But I'd say it falls into the you better make the shot count category of bullets. Which isn't a bad thing... well unless you didn't make the shot count!

The TSX helps to make a marginal deer round, marginally better.

This like ALL .223 on deer threads has come to the exact same conclusion that ALL .223 on deer threads come to. The .223 can be pressed into service if the limitations of the round are strictly adhered to. Nothing new or earth shattering here.

 

[Nature Boy]

This has been a good thread, regardless of whether you're entertaining the idea of using .223 on deer or not. A lot of good info.

 

[stiab]

Here's my standard comment on these .223 deer hunting threads: When that "buck of a lifetime", a 10-point 175 pounder steps out at 165 yards, quartering away from you, with his head down eating acorns, you don't want to be holding a .223.

 

[TimSr]

or When that "buck of a lifetime", a 10-point 175 pounder steps out at 65 yards, quartering towards you, with his head down eating acorns, you don't want to be holding a .223.

 

[AStone]

a thread about lite .30-30 rounds

I can understand that there's nothing new and Earth-shattering here, but for those of us just now exploring this topic, it's new (even if not Earth-shattering). I'm learning lots and glad it's happening.

In part in response to what I'm learning here about .223, and in my quest to find intermediate rounds between .22 and full sized .30-30 rnds, I've started this thread about lite (especially 125 gr) .30-30 rounds. The 125's seem so far to be a step or two up from .223, but admittedly not as positive as 150 - 170 gr.

If any of you are interested, and especially if you have experience, please join us for that discussion, also.

 

[entropy]

Here's my standard comment on these .223 deer hunting threads: When that "buck of a lifetime", a 10-point 175 pounder steps out at 165 yards, quartering away from you, with his head down eating acorns, you don't want to be holding a .223.

I do.

or When that "buck of a lifetime", a 10-point 175 pounder steps out at 65 yards, quartering towards you, with his head down eating acorns, you don't want to be holding a .223.

Why not? I wouldn't take that shot with a .300 Win. Mag., either. I'd wait for a better shot, either (or any, for that matter) caliber.

 

[MCgunner]

I've done quartering shots DRT with .257 Roberts, .308, AND 7mm Rem Mag. Just put the bullet on point of the shoulder if quartering toward or behind the shoulder if quartering away...not a problem if you can shoot and have a stable shooting position off cross sticks or a mono pod or something. I wouldn't try it with a .223, though.

BTW, the .257 Roberts is very light on the shoulder and gets over 3000 fps with a 117 grain bullet properly loaded with H4831. It's my lightest game rifle. I inherited it from my grandpa and shoot my .308 mostly now days because I can handle it. Actually, either one of these rifles is a fine deer/hog rifle. The .308 does carry more punch and a little more at the shoulder, but nothing to cry about.