223 and Deer. Anyone actually had a confirmed good broadside vitals shot fail?

[jim in Anchorage]

I've had quite a few DRTs without any sort of CNS hit. It's not always a belted magnum, either. A lung hit collapsed a small spike one year from my .30-30 Contender at 90 yards. Dropped so fast in the tall grass, I thought I'd missed. My first deer, 75 yard shot on the run, clipped the top of the heart. THAT is a killer shot, instantly drops blood pressure to the brain to zero. Hit the heart through the ventricles and the valve will shut from back pressure and the aorta/carotid that supplies blood to the brain will maintain pressure for long enough for the deer to travel a ways, especially if it's already on the run. I've seen that, too.

But, one does not aim at the aorta above the heart. So, it helps to have some energy in that bullet to produce some ballistic pressure wave. The 7 mag is a bit excessive in this regard, but I've never had a deer hit amid ships take a step with it shot within 300 yards. Gotta be a thorax hit, of course. Gut shot, don't matter if it's a .458 Win Mag.

The ONE shot that is guaranteed to anchor is through the shoulders. It might kick for a bit, but it can't run with its landing gear destroyed. I like more bullet than a .22 to accomplish this. Ain't a lot of decent meat on the shoulders, anyway, and with a reasonable caliber like a .308 with a reasonable bullet, the meat damage is minimal. I grind all that for chili or sausage, anyway. In fact, save the backstrap and hind quarters for the roasts, I grind most of a deer. I like my chili.

In these thick woods out here, I prefer shoulder shots. I'm just biding my time to see if I can find a deer shot with a crossbow, though this is the last week of bow season here and I've yet to shoot anything.

I agree 100% with the bolded. Break bones and it ain't going anywhere. And a kiddie gun like a.223 is not up to that.

 

[777funk]

Game getting up isnt always a bullet failure.

Very true. Game gets up with good shots from all calibers. What I considered a failure in my broad and generic qualifications earlier posted is a deer that travels more than 150 yards.

Failure only because more than 150 yards through thick country could mean a lost deer and because there are certain calibers where the paper plate sized vitals would drop a deer quickly/quicker than a 223 may (at least in theory). My dad always used a Marlin 336 in 35 Rem while I was growing up and still holds that he's never lost a deer with that rifle. He was never quite as thrilled with his later 308 which didn't hold the same record for him. Theoretically the .308 is superior fire power at least in energy.

 

[AStone]

I'm still reading. This is a great thread. Thanks to all.

I'm learning much. It'll help me a lot when I add .223 to my kit, sooner than later, me thinks.

 

[ldlfh7]

I think any centerfire round properly placed puts venison in the freezer. I once lost a deer that I gut shot (not my proudest moment) with a 7mm Rem Mag. Power does not make up for placement.

 

[AStone]

Break bones and it ain't going anywhere.

Especially those 'front landing gear' bones. (I like the term, McG..

And a kiddie gun like a.223 is not up to that.

Well, a step too far, there. Just because it isn't up to breaking bone -- at least in deer -- that doesn't make it a "kiddie gun".

It's strength lies elsewhere, I'd argue, or so I'm learning. Don't own one yet, but inching closer ...

 

[777funk]

I wouldn't say a .223 is not bone breaking... Arrows make it through bone many times. A .223 will go through cement blocks (someone left some behind in the middle of a range and what else is a guy to do but move them (by reducing the size...) lol).

Maybe a better statement would be that .223 is not able to penetrate as much bone as say 30-06 or 300WM.

That said, I'd say it's probably a good idea be careful to try to keep it behind the shoulder just incase.

 

[MCgunner]

Well, in the woods especially, I do prefer to take out the shoulders. If he kicks a few times, so be it, but I ain't losing him. The smallest gun I've used on deer is .30-30 and it works well. Bullet size, I've shot a few dozen with the .257 Roberts. I've had ONE deer run 75 yards when hit in the lungs. The exit wound suggested to me that the 117 grain Hornady Interlock didn't open up, so I went back to my 100 grain Sierra Game King which is more accurate, anyway, not that the Interlock is inaccurate or anything. I do like the bigger bullet of my .308, though, leaves less to chance. I've had ONE bullet fail to exit on a west Texas deer, a 100 grain .257 Game King. I hit it on the point of the shoulder as it was quartering toward me about 150 yards out. I heard a CRACK and the deer dropped dead. The bullet was deflected upward by the left side scapula, went up and busted one of the vertebrae just behind the neck, deflected down and broke an off side rib and I found the bullet flattened just under the skin. Needless to say, he didn't go anywhere. That "crack" I heard HAD to be the vertebrae shattering.....Caribou's CNS hit.

 

[MCgunner]

I wouldn't say a .223 is not bone breaking... Arrows make it through bone many times.

Well, my crossbow bolts weigh 400 grains had have a razor sharp cutting head. No faster than they're moving, they do the trick, but in a different way. They cut, like stabbing with a knife. The animal MUST bleed out and they usually go a ways I understand, but I only shot my first one today with the crossbow and it went about 50 yards and dropped and bled out.

Now, I've NEVER seen the amount of blood let from a deer that I did with that crossbow hit. THAT amazed me. But, I wouldn't shoot the shoulder with it and arrows are notorious for not penetrating the shoulder cartilage of a large hog where a heavy .308 bullet will penetrate both sides. On a pig, the archer must put the arrow behind the shoulder on a quartering away shot. If you can't get a quartering away shot, don't bother cause all you'll hit is gut.

Personally, I'll stick to my rifles, black powder or smokeless, for pigs. I don't really care about the archery challenge on 'em and you do NOT want to track a wounded boar into heavy cover. I did that once and had to throw my underwear away, though my .357 magnum did the job with a head shot. Since then, I don't chase wounded pigs, just let 'em go die. Ain't like there's a shortage around here.

As to pigs and the .223, not me, thanks.

 

[Flintknapper]

777funk wrote:

Interesting Flint. So tell me about the shots... sounds like the only thing that changed (to get better results) was caliber, but were those long tracks ideal shots (heart lung area)?

Yes Sir. All shots taken between 50-75 yds, all shots placed tightly behind the shoulder in the crease, 1/3rd the way up from the belly. Only one of the deer was not perfectly broadside (it was facing only slightly away, nothing approaching quartering).

I would not consider the tracking of the deer particularly long, (they can travel quite a distance in the 10-15 seconds it might take them to succumb). But the relatively sparse blood trail (a product of a small exit hole and low shot angle) might cause a beginning hunter to abandon the search.

Each deer was fatality wounded and each bleed sufficiently, but internally.

So I would in no way call the shots or results a 'failure'. I just think the .223/5.56 leaves little margin for error and that those who employ it should have realistic expectations of it.

Fortunately, in the 20 years since my Daughter last used one (on deer), great strides have been made in bullet technology.

What we have available today is far removed from the cup and core bullets we were shooting two decades ago...so my experience with a small sample size (4 deer) may not be especially relevant.

I can only say....that when moving up (even to just the .243), it was immediately clear that you 'hit' the animal (from its reaction), it was also clear the animal was compromised from its very first steps and blood trails were greatly improved (also much shorter).

Finally, when going to the 7mm-08....most deer (some shot out to 150yds) simply dropped right where they were. Empirical evidence of greater 'shock' being delivered. Virtually NO deer (to date) has run more than 40 yds, much to my daughter's liking.

Anyway, I am not saying we had 'failures' with the .223 (depending upon how we define failure), just advising anyone that can...to move up when you can.

Interesting thread. Good Job!

Flint.

 

[777funk]

Interesting thread. Good Job!

Thanks Flint. I thoroughly enjoyed your hog trapping thread. I wished we had hogs to hunt around here until I saw your ongoing menace with them and understand your pain. What a cockroach of an animal they are. There may not be endless supplies of deer to hunt in the states in which I've lived like you have with pigs but I'd be glad to have 1-2 deer vs 20-50 hogs a season any day.


As far as this thread, I figured I've seen plenty of "will .223 work for deer?" threads but never a ".223 deer hunting failures with proper shot placement" which I think means a heck of a lot more.

 

[jim in Anchorage]

Especially those 'front landing gear' bones. (I like the term, McG..
Well, a step too far, there. Just because it isn't up to breaking bone -- at least in deer -- that doesn't make it a "kiddie gun".

It's strength lies elsewhere, I'd argue, or so I'm learning. Don't own one yet, but inching closer ...

Hey I'm just going off what I learn here. I don't know how many times I've read "my kid killed truck loads of deer with a .223."
Doesn't that by definition make it a kiddie gun?

 

[777funk]

Ha ha. There are plenty of real men who've used them to hunt with. I have a friend who's killed more deer than anyone else I know. He started using 223 because he's into prairie dogs and varmints, but after finding out how effective it was for deer, he doesn't bring the heavier calibers out anymore. He's about as tough as a person could be. So even though it's small and doesn't do shoulder damage after putting a box of shells down range, I'm sure it's no kiddie gun to him.

 

[X-Rap]

but after finding out how effective it was for deer, he doesn't bring the heavier calibers out anymore

We already know that the 223 will take a deer but to put down more effective guns and calibers to us a marginal one makes no sense. Did he do this just to be different?

 

[MCgunner]

Heck, 50 years ago, my grandpa got teased about his "pop gun" at the lease from the other folks who mostly used .30 calibers. His was the .257 Roberts I now own. Like I said earlier, it was the law you couldn't use less than a .25 caliber on deer. Then, the .243 came along and eventually they changed the law to include the 6mms as it was consensus that they were adequate.

I was never big on the .22-250 that was popular for a while 20-30 years ago with recoil shy folks and kids, after they dropped the caliber limitations. The .22-250 seems like a cannon compared to the .223, but it still pushes too little lead for my tastes. Yeah, there are magic bullets now days in .22 caliber, but with a better caliber, one doesn't need magic bullets.

Kilimanjaro Bell hunted elephant with the 7x57 Mauser. Good on him. That doesn't make the .275 Rigby (7x57) the worlds best elephant gun, though Bell shot something like a hundred head with it.

We've already heard of failures to stop with the .223. How about a "failure to stop" elephant with the 7x57? Well, I guess we wouldn't hear about that. Don't think they have the net in heaven...or at least I hope not.

 

[MCgunner]

Oh, and BTW, it is said that the .22LR has killed more deer than any other (outlaws). I don't know of a way to confirm that, but I know it has killed deer for outlaws. I wouldn't use it, though, even if rimfires were legal on deer. BUT, all you gotta do is make a head shot!

 

[X-Rap]

My Grand dad popped his share with a single shot 22 back in the day. I even remember seeing what was told to be a homemade silencer stashed above a door frame in his old house back in the 60's (long since fell in).
In tough times one does what it takes to make do and I can see the allure of proving it can be done but to do it on a continuing basis is questionable IMO.

 

[777funk]

Well in the end if it works and works well, why not use it. Ammo is cheap. Recoil is low. Accuracy is good.

But... if it doesn't work well, there's no reason to use it. That's what this thread is all about. Finding examples where .223 wasn't effective and it was the fault of the round and not the hunter.

 

[d2wing]

I have shot dozens of deer with all kinds of calibers and have seen them run and also drt with heart lung shots with a variety ranging from 7 MM mag, slugs, to .357 and .223. To me bullet selection, soft point, and shot placement and range mean more than caliber. The only deer that ran far enough into a swamp that I lost track were both shot with shotgun slugs. I have shot a few with a .223. None have gone more than 40 yards. But all were broadside shots within 100 yards and well placed with 55 gr. Soft points. The lungs and heart were mush. I have shot deer over 250 lbs. but I do think caribou are thicker and tougher in my opinion.
The .223 works but you have to be selective about ammo and type of shots. A bigger caliber give you more shot angles and more range. My current preferred gun is a 7-08. Bolt action. I would use an AR again but prefer better range.

 

[No4Mk1*]

A family member has shot 2...

65gr Sierra Gameking to shoulder - FAIL - deer seen limping next day.
62gr TSX success - I don't recall where that one impacted.
Both were max 223 loads from a 20" bbl around 50 yard shots.

What I've decided is when using a 223 one should use a "heavy" TSX / GMX type bullet. No sense using a bullet which will shed any weight if you hit the shoulder. I also will try to shoot behind the shoulder, & prefer morning hunts for blood trail visability.

The purpose of youth 223/5.56 hunting is to promote more target practice without developing bad habbits from recoil.

 

[AStone]

What I've decided is when using a 223 one should use a "heavy" TSX / GMX type bullet.

Like this?

 

[MCgunner]

What I've decided is when using a 223 one should use a "heavy" TSX / GMX type bullet.

Well, okay, or a better caliber gun.

 

[AStone]

It's not a matter of "better". It's a matter of appropriate.

Fit the caliber to the game. Sometimes, enough is enough.

 

[No4Mk1*]

Yes that 62gr TSX "Hog Hammer" is essentially what I handload for 1:9 twist barrels.
And yes I think a "better caliber" or more appropriate cartridge should be used "most of the time", to reduce the risk of losing a deer, but not for my 8 year old.

 

[AStone]

I've got my .30-30, which is a better, more appropriate caliber for some occasions and scenarios, but not all, regardless of age, from 8 to 80.

I do not yield on this point.

 

[777funk]

65gr Sierra Gameking to shoulder - FAIL - deer seen limping next day.

So a shoulder shot failure is listed. Good to know. Was the deer harvested and confirmed to be the same deer (the limper)? Not that it wasn't the same deer. Sounds like it very probably was.