Is there a somewhat true way to tell how fast my reloads are going without a chrono? does that quick loads site show stuff like this? I'm shooting 55gr v max with 23.6gr benchmark and 24gr BM with cci 450 primers, lc cases 24inch regular barrel. I got invited to coyote hunt tomorrow after work and no time to load up faster rounds and check accuracy but I know 23.3-23.6 touches holes at 100yards but my shots might be out to 250yards and I just want to compensate for bullet drop.
223 fps?
- Thread starter Axis II
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Without case capacity (the actual weight of water filled to the case mouth), case trim to length, and cartridge overall length you can only estimate the muzzle velocity but assuming;
.223 cal
55gr Vmax
24 gr of Benchmark
TTL 1.759"
COAL 2.260"
24" BBL
Estimated muzzle velocity is 3100 FPS
.223 cal
55gr Vmax
24 gr of Benchmark
TTL 1.759"
COAL 2.260"
24" BBL
Estimated muzzle velocity is 3100 FPS
ArchAngelCD
Member.
If you want to know the correct velocity of your load in your rifle you know what you need to do. You can get one for $80 now days.
EDIT:
Sorry, I missed the part about needing the info by tomorrow.
EDIT:
Sorry, I missed the part about needing the info by tomorrow.
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You will probably be pushing just under 3200 FPS, around 3180 or so. Obviously you could buy a chronograph but as you mentioned, you need this info for tomorrow and you don't have time to buy one. My QuickLoad data will be close enough for you to build drop data that would work pretty well on yotes out to at least 200 or 300 yards. I've used this software for many years and I can usually hit velocities within plus or minus 30 fps, more often than not my estimates end up being about 25 fps low.
These folks all gave valid answers, my solution in similar situations, (if I hadn't already doped it out) was an app from the Android store called Bullet Load Calculator, it was designed for you to input your desired mv then bullet weight then starting weight of powder from book data, then Max charge. I input all data, then played with the desired mv (remembering to adjust mentally as my barrel was 4" shorter than test barrel) until it gave me the charge weight I was using. I could not account for primer brand differences but when I did finally get them over the chronograph, it turned out that I was selling my barrel length just the slightest bit to short and that my guestimation was scary close but 50fps slow... could be accounted for with many variables but here we are. I've never used quickloads but I have seen what others have posted and the given results are not as in depth with the app but it IS functional and free. I don't think mac or jmr is steering you too far off but you can take 10 min and download the app or you can share your book load data with me and we can add a 3rd data source to the pile. there's no way to account for seating depth pressure with the app.
illinoisburt
Member
Honestly for hunting purposes it wouldn't make any difference whether you were loaded at 3000 or 3300 fps. The old point blank ranging is your friend. Sighted in 2" high at 100 yards will hit within 2-1/2 inches point of aim up or down out to 250 yards with that bullet at either start velocity. Might be meaningful for ground squirrels but it's a dead on kill on every coyote you will find. Honestly at 200-250 yards a strong wind will drift more than the bullet drop. Speed differences only really become apparent for hunting purposes at 300 yards and further out.
In short, no.
For example, the Speer manual (11th edition) says that with a 55 grain Speer bullet on top of 22 grains of IMR-4198, I should get 3,101 fps out of a Ruger Mini-14 with an 18 inch barrel (their test rifle). My chronograph reports an average of 2,950 fps with that load.
I take it that my chronograph is in calibration because it reports advertised velocities when factory ammunition is shot through it.
Varminterror
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Quickload costs more than a ProChrono Digital Chronograph, and of course, it's nothing better than an estimation which knows nothing about your real world barrel or chamber.
If you know a true BC for your bullet and can deliver appropriate accuracy, then casting trajectory at range will give you a much more correct MV than Quickload. But Chicken vs. Egg, I assume you're wanting an accurate MV simply to give you the ability to calculate your approximate trajectory, so I expect you won't find this method acceptable.
You also wouldn't be able to get familiar enough with Quickload in an evening to get accurate MV's. It's a great tool, but it's not a magic ball.
If you know a true BC for your bullet and can deliver appropriate accuracy, then casting trajectory at range will give you a much more correct MV than Quickload. But Chicken vs. Egg, I assume you're wanting an accurate MV simply to give you the ability to calculate your approximate trajectory, so I expect you won't find this method acceptable.
You also wouldn't be able to get familiar enough with Quickload in an evening to get accurate MV's. It's a great tool, but it's not a magic ball.
1stmarine
Member
You can derive speed fairly well from time to target but you have to know the correct ballistic coeficient and measure that time with a camera or sound.
POI is also a great way to derive and use to adjust bc for known speed. The same way speed can be obtained from known bc. In either case you will need two reference points ideally something like 25 yards and 200 or 300.
If all your other variables are true whatever the math tells you is true. So by adjusting speed your poi and time to target will change with speed. Map out speed to what you observe.
Not the ideal but it will be close if done right.
POI is also a great way to derive and use to adjust bc for known speed. The same way speed can be obtained from known bc. In either case you will need two reference points ideally something like 25 yards and 200 or 300.
If all your other variables are true whatever the math tells you is true. So by adjusting speed your poi and time to target will change with speed. Map out speed to what you observe.
Not the ideal but it will be close if done right.
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Do any of you guys that are so dismissive of QuickLoad use the software?
I ask because it's obvious that you either don't have any direct experience with the software or you don't understand how to use the software properly. I can always get close enough to the actual measured muzzle velocities that I only bother checking speeds with my chronograph as a final step in developing my load record and drop data.
The most important reason I use QuickLoad is to reduce the time it takes to develop a precision load and to reduce the expense and expenditure of resources (bullets, powder, primers, etc.). My workups allow me to build starting loads that I know are within safe pressure standards and within a grain or so of an optimum load. The key is barrel time, barrel time is the amount of time that it takes the bullet to travel down the bore, that time is related to barrel harmonics and it can be estimated based on known good muzzle velocities. I know what barrel time works best for my rifles and whenever I change bullets or powders I workup a load in the software that develops the rifle's proven optimum barrel time. This usually results in me having to build a set of test loads with only three or four different powder charge weights and I'll find my optimum load.
I agree that a chronograph is the best way to obtain an estimated muzzle velocity but the software is a valid alternative when you're just starting to develop a load or you're using a bullet/ powder combination that isn't included in any of your reference material. Besides, both the software and the chronograph have a margin of error and the muzzle velocities that we obtain from one will usually be within the margin of error for the other unless you have a top of the line chronograph and you've set it up properly or you've really put garbage information in to the software. But if you know what you're doing with QuickLoad, the software will be close enough to the measured velocities that the error won't be great enough to matter.
I ask because it's obvious that you either don't have any direct experience with the software or you don't understand how to use the software properly. I can always get close enough to the actual measured muzzle velocities that I only bother checking speeds with my chronograph as a final step in developing my load record and drop data.
The most important reason I use QuickLoad is to reduce the time it takes to develop a precision load and to reduce the expense and expenditure of resources (bullets, powder, primers, etc.). My workups allow me to build starting loads that I know are within safe pressure standards and within a grain or so of an optimum load. The key is barrel time, barrel time is the amount of time that it takes the bullet to travel down the bore, that time is related to barrel harmonics and it can be estimated based on known good muzzle velocities. I know what barrel time works best for my rifles and whenever I change bullets or powders I workup a load in the software that develops the rifle's proven optimum barrel time. This usually results in me having to build a set of test loads with only three or four different powder charge weights and I'll find my optimum load.
I agree that a chronograph is the best way to obtain an estimated muzzle velocity but the software is a valid alternative when you're just starting to develop a load or you're using a bullet/ powder combination that isn't included in any of your reference material. Besides, both the software and the chronograph have a margin of error and the muzzle velocities that we obtain from one will usually be within the margin of error for the other unless you have a top of the line chronograph and you've set it up properly or you've really put garbage information in to the software. But if you know what you're doing with QuickLoad, the software will be close enough to the measured velocities that the error won't be great enough to matter.
Grumulkin
Member
There ARE other ways. Though not as accurate as using a chronograph, they will give an idea:
1. A very old one is a ballistic pendulum.
2. You can measure bullet drop from say 100 to 200 yards. Then is you know the ballistic coefficient of the bullet, you can plug the numbers into free ballistics calculators available on the internet and play with the velocity numbers until you get a drop similar to your load.
1. A very old one is a ballistic pendulum.
2. You can measure bullet drop from say 100 to 200 yards. Then is you know the ballistic coefficient of the bullet, you can plug the numbers into free ballistics calculators available on the internet and play with the velocity numbers until you get a drop similar to your load.
When shooting factory ammo i usually just do the old inch and half high at 100 puts me on at 200 and it seems to work well when whacking woodchucks at 200yards but the rifle is sighted in for reloads and no time to see where factory hits. also another question on the subject of fps and ammo. the rifle was sighted in last year for American eagle 50gr varmint tip factory ammo and would shoot a ragged hole wherever i put the x hairs. When i put my reloads 55gr v max in the rifle it shot 3 inches low. With this info I'm assuming the American eagle was faster and this is why i was worried about my bullet drop.
55 should be a touch slower on average if everything else is equal, but each poi can be different for each load regardless, my 50s are close to 3170 and factory vmax 55 hit 6" high every time. No idea what they clock out of my 20" but I THINK hornady advertises 3-3100 I'm not sure that was a couple weeks ago. But I would NOT judge velocity by different poi.
Blue68f100
Member
1stmarine
Member
Quickload is a very nice software but it cannot account for everything.
There is a huge difference based on other factors like bore material, twist, rifling, etc..
An auto-loader might loose anything between 50 to 200 fps depending on the cartrige, porting, barrel length, etc...
I think it should be close enough but the only way to know for sure is to measure the speed.
Even chronos have their own error and the only way to overcome is to have a professional grade system or Doppler system .
Whatever the situation, it should be close enough but other methods could be a close enough too estimating given the purpose and
in practical terms.
There is a huge difference based on other factors like bore material, twist, rifling, etc..
An auto-loader might loose anything between 50 to 200 fps depending on the cartrige, porting, barrel length, etc...
I think it should be close enough but the only way to know for sure is to measure the speed.
Even chronos have their own error and the only way to overcome is to have a professional grade system or Doppler system .
Whatever the situation, it should be close enough but other methods could be a close enough too estimating given the purpose and
in practical terms.
What do you mean when you say that there is a "...huge difference based on other factors like bore material, twist, rifling, etc."? A huge difference in what? Definitely not in the effect on accuracy for the average person, maybe for a bench rest competition shooter or long range competition shooter but quite honestly the average guy wont see the difference that those factors make in their groups.
How have you come to the conclusion that a semi-auto produces less velocity? There might a slight difference due to tapping some of the gas off but that would very minimal, definitely not enough to cause several hundred feet per second difference between the two types of guns. I will admit that most gas guns use powder charges that are lighter than those used for bolt guns but that is irrelevant in so far as what the software predicts, it will still predict the muzzle velocities with the same accuracy. I really don't know what loss in velocity you are referring to as I've never seen it, when I make a load for my gas guns the bullets move at pretty much the same speed in both my gas guns and my bolt guns. Muzzle velocity is a factor of the amount of hot gasses produced and how long they burn behind the bullet. By the time the gasses get to the gas port on a gas gun most of the energy from the hot gasses has been used up and very little potential energy is lost.
After using QuickLoad (internal ballistics) and QuickTarget (external ballistics) for more than 10 years and I've never had to compensate for a gas gun vs a bolt gun. Using the software has been good enough for my uses out to 1000 yards. Walt Berger, owner of Berger Bullets and competition shooter, has used QuickLoad and QuickTarget for years as a tool for developing his reloading manuals, I think that that's a pretty good validation of the accuracy and capability of the software.
1stmarine
Member
Same caliber same barrel length and same loads show difference in speeds in different guns. Sometimes these differences are in the triple digits.
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Reloadron
Contributing Member
Actually didn't Walt Berger sell Berger Bullets in 2000? Not that it really matters but just as a matter of fact:
The story of Berger Bullets. I had the pleasure of working with a nephew of Walt the last 20 years of my career. Walt was in regular attendance of the Super Shoot benchrest competition here in NE Ohio (Kebly's Range Inc.). So while Walt remained on with Berger Bullets he has not owned it since 2000. It wasn't too long ago that Berger Bullets released their first reloading manual. Maybe a few years ago? Currently in first edition. I just tend to doubt Walt Berger was using software solutions 16 years ago when he sold Berger Bullets.
Ron
Reloadron
Contributing Member
The simple answer is no, maybe close but no. Were I in your position I would do as some suggested. You know the bullet which groups on target at 100 yards. Use a ballistic calculator and add some clicks to your scope to compensate for distance. For example, from where you are now if you will be 1.5" or 2.0" low at 250 yards and you have a 1/4 MOA click scope just raise the elevation about 6 clicks. That should get you still in the kill zone. Kill zone on an adult coyote is what? Maybe 4" to 5"? The kill zone is somewhat forgiving and you know where you are at 100 yards and with what bullet. Wishing you some good luck. Don't overly worry about it.
Ron
Varminterror
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I hope you don't consider my comments to be dismissive of Quickload. I do use it, and haven't batted an eye at paying for version on version over the years. It's an invaluable tool for wildcatting as well as the thought exercises which preclude different projects which find themselves off of the beaten path (like a 338wm XP100).
I noted one respondent mention getting the info via Quickload overnight, and I'll stand by the fact I do not believe someone can master the software nor the input variables themselves in a single night. Maybe I misread the context.
The capabilities of the software also don't change the fact if all you're after is muzzle velocity, Quickload costs about twice as much as the Prochrono Digital, which will actually measure it directly, rather than estimate it.
And cheaper still, given a good BC for your bullet, is to shoot a range array and plot your trajectory to determine your muzzle velocity.
Someone must be trying to sell quick load software. You can look up in a reloading chart and get in the ballpark. The software is an estimation tool and nothing more. As has been said way too many variables that can stack up or cancel each other out.
Reloadron
Contributing Member
That was Thursday evening. Today is Saturday. So has the Ohio coyote population decreased?
Ron
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