223 rifle selection. Any feed back will be greatly appreciated.

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Tigerclaw_x

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Well, my 7.62x39 problems are over. Rather then going with Yugo M70 or Saiga, I got myself a NORINCO hunter. 20.5 inch chrome lined barrel. Milled receiver. It doesn't look "evil", but a milled receiver + chromed barrel more then make up for it. Also getting RUSSIAN SKS.
Now, my search if for 223 rifle (5.56 NATO).
I will definitely get a 223 Norinco (I happen to like thumbhole stocks) and, later V-93. I also may get an SLR rifle instead of Norinco, if the price is right.
Now, there are also other rifles I am looking at:
1) Saiga 223 (20.5 incher). It has a chrome lined barrel, but a stamped receiver, and it is pretty thin too. I am not sure about the accuracy of this rifle. I heard very mixed things about it. But the reliability and price are right.
2) AR-180B. It is a bit pricey, I heard good things about its accuracy, but it's reliability seems lacking. It doesn't have chrome lined barrel. I heard it is a bit picky about ammo and mags and has plastic lower receiver.
3) Kel-Tec SU-16A. I heard nothing but good things about its accuracy. However, it is pricey, and I am not sure about how sturdy it is. it's reliability is also unknown
4) Various AR-15 rifles. I heard good things about their accuracy, however, they are pricey and their reliability seems to be questionable. For every person who claims that they are reliable, once claims that they are bad. Besides, they ARE pricey. For the same money I can (and will) buy a V-93. An HK system rifle and never have any problems with it.
5) Ruger 14. I heard NOTHING but bad things about the rifle. It is pricey, I just don't like it. So it is not even in the running anymore.
6) Daewoo DR200. This is a dark horse. It seems to be a mix of AK and AR systems. Anyone knows how accurate and reliable it is (yes, it has a thumbhole stock, but I happen to LOVE those).

Please, if it is not too much trouble. Leave me the feedback on those rifles.
I am a beginning gun owner and beginning member of ISRA and NRA. So, please, help a newbie....:)

On another hand. I came accross a clone of G3 made by Springfield (SAR-8). Are those any good?

Thank you all very much in advance for your valuable help

D
 
AR15 all the way

AR15's reliability isn't questionable if you buy quality, use good mags, and keep it somewhat clean and/or lubed. By clean, I don't even mean super clean. I clean mine almost every time I shoot, but I've had it over 1000 rounds w/o a cleaning and not been worried about choking.

Really, i'm never worried about if my AR's are going to fire when I pull the trigger.

I guess you should know where I stand. :evil:
 
The reliability issues of ARs typically go to three things:

1) ammunition
2) magazines
3) proper lubrication

If you take care of those three issues, most ARs are extremely reliable. The other issue is that several thousand people make AR parts and all to slightly different specs. People buy cheap parts because one AR15 hammer looks exactly like another so why pay $40 for one when you can buy the one next to it for $10? Except that the $10 hammer is made out of lesser grade of steel and not hardened at all and will last for all of about 100 rounds before it has issues.

The great thing about the AR - its modularity, popularity and number of vendors - is also one of its major weaknesses since people are always cutting corners on parts to lower the price and be more competitive. Usually they can get away with it because the vast majority of AR owners don't shoot them more than once or twice a year or shoot them very hard when they do use them.
 
AR15.

Guys, nothing personal, I just have a strong dislike of AR15 system. Yes, it is modular. I need a RELIABLE rifle, the rifle which will eat any ammo and any magazines I will feed it. For example, my Norinco Hunter takes ANY AK magazines. My Radom TT takes ANY TT magazines and eats ANY 7.62x25 ammo. Thats what I need in a rifle.
AR 15s are also EXPENSIVE. For the same money I will buy a V93, a HK system rifle, which is infinitely more reliable and just as accurate (sub 1 MOA at 100m) . So, unless I find an Excellent Condition AR for under $500, I won't even consider them.

I need to find out:
1) Accuracy of Saiga 223.
2) Reliability of Kel Tec SU-16 and its sturdiness.
3) Just how bad the problems of AR180B are. (just how fragile and picky it is)
4) Reliability and accuracy of Daewoo DR200.
5) Ruger 14 is not even in the running. I won't even consider it.

I do not mean to offend anyone. I just do not think that AR15 is that good.
I shot it, I disliked the way it handled. besides, I heard about as many AR 15 horror stories as I have about Ruger Mini14 stories. So, please, just give me the data on the 4 rifles I am inquiring about. Most stores, even if they have them, won't let you shoot them:)

Thank you

D
 
I need a RELIABLE rifle, the rifle which will eat any ammo and any magazines I will feed it.
Click to expand...
No automatic rifle meets your criteria.
For example, my Norinco Hunter takes ANY AK magazines. My Radom TT takes ANY TT magazines and eats ANY 7.62x25 ammo.
Click to expand...
No they won't. You've used ammunition and magazines withing the specifications of your firearm. I'm sure if you look around you'll find magazines and ammunition that will cause malfunction. Yet again, that comes with owning an automatic.
 
Please, guys. Enough about AR15s. Just give me your opinions on these rifles:

1. Saiga 223. What kind of MOA I can expect from 20.5 inch barrel with FMJ ammo?
2. Kel -Tec SU16. Just how sturdy and reliable (or not) are they? I already know that they are equal to AR15.
3. Daewoo DR200. Just how reliable are these? how accurate?

Frankly, I am starting to be convinced about AR15 rifles, I will buy one, however, the US made weapons are not on my priority list, since they are available in abundance and can be picked up 1, 2, 3 or 5 years from now.
DPMS and Armalite are not going anywhere:).
I know that Kel-Tec is US made too. I held one, liked it, just want to know how sturdy it is.
Saiga 223 is an import, which can be stopped whenever the Gestapo freaks from ATF, FBI, etc feel like it.
Daewoo is not imported anymore, so I need to know ASAP about it, so I can make a decision is it worth to buy those two rifles.
I am purchasing IMPORT weapons before american ones, since Import once can get stopped from importing REALLY QUICKLY.


Thank you

D
 
My bad, you listed the AR15 in your original post and so I assumed you were considering it. Apparently you have no desire to consider it, don't like it and don't wish to own it unless someone gives you one.

Given the choices you have listed, I would consider how heavy a firing schedule you plan to run on the rifle. If you are shooting say, 800 rounds in a day, the AR-180B and Keltec may make it; but it won't be very comfortable for the shooter due to heat. The Ruger also has a lot of cast and cheap parts and isn't really built for sustained fire. If nothing else, it will start stringing shots in short order.

Of the rifles you listed, the Saiga is probably most reliable, though it won't meet the standards you outlined above.

For the same money I will buy a V93, a HK system rifle, which is infinitely more reliable and just as accurate (sub 1 MOA at 100m)
Click to expand...

Color me skeptical. I doubt you'll find a Vector V93 that is reliably sub-MOA (10rd groups at 100yds) without extensive reworking that puts it in a price range above an AR. For that matter most ARs are not sub-MOA.

I am a beginning gun owner and beginning member of ISRA and NRA. So, please, help a newbie....:)
Click to expand...

For a beginning gun owner, you seem pretty confident about what you know. Perhaps you might be better served by considering the advice you have asked for instead of telling the people giving you that advice why they were wrong to offer it?
 
About AR 15 and others.

Chances are, I will be picking up an AR15 based rifle. However, on the priority list, it is nowhere near the front. AR15s are produced here, are in no danger of being banned "from imported", while other rifles.... Same with Kel-Tec.

I know very little about AR15 and its modularity. I would love to learn and make my decision later; but, in a meantime, I am looking for a 223 rifle for under $600.
You can find a used DAEWOO for that much. Saiga costs less, however, I need to know just how good (or bad) it's accuracy is (and nobody so far were able to give me that info).
Yes, I will be looking at SLR style AK and at NORINCO MAC 90. I will DEFINITELY pick up V-93.
I am trying to get some info on: Daewoo, Saiga and Kel Tec because they are all: in my price range.

Thank you

D
 
Remington 760 series pumps have good reliabilaty and accuracy reputations and they are now makeing the 7615 a M&P plastic stocked model that uses AR magazines. Pricey now but I bet they will go for under $500 in the future.
 
I thank you for your help but...

Nobody yet answered my questions.
I ask about SAIGA, DAEWOO and Kel -Tec.
People respond about Remington and AR15. I am interested only in information on SAIGA 223, Daewoo DR200 and Kel Tec SU16B.
Please, help me with learning about those three rifles, their ACCURACY and reliability.

Thank you

D
 
You've already made your decision. You want an AK platform based rifle. And wether you know it or not, you know what the accuracy is going to be. The AK platforms offer 3-4 inches out at 100 yards for most ammo with most shooters. So don't bother asking questions about which .223 platform to buy and go get the one with the features you want.

Personally, having owned several AK's, SKS's and assorted other such guns over the years and having owned an AR15, I wouldn't bother with any of the AK platforms in .223. I'd just build myself an AR15 for around 700 and not fart with the mediocrity of the AK.

But I'm not the one buying it. You are. Go buy what you want.

Saigas are just AK's in sporting drag. Anything true about the AK is true about them. Daewoo's are also AK based platforms, again, see AK. Kel Tecs SU16's are an inexpensive civilian made gun with reliability not quite on a par with a Mini-14, though decent accuracy. Of the three, I'd pass on the Kel Tec and look harder at the other two. Of the other two, I'd go with the Saiga, as it's made pretty well and has a decent reputation as AK platform guns go. Ultimately, they still have crappy ergonomics, mediocre sights and accuracy, just like the AK. But it's your nickel, get what makes you happy.

Just my .02,

Dave
 
AR-15

AR-15 is head of the .223 family. I believe the AR-15 has been around for about 40 years. In those 40 years, it has been improved to the unmatched and sought after weapon that it is today. The AR-15 is reliable, easy to use, has plenty of aftermarket parts and accessories, and posesses a great reputation. That is not to say that other rifles on your list don't match some of these qualities. The all around best .223 is definately the AR-15.
 
AR15 for $700?

Ok, I may be interested in that. I only seen AR180B for around that much.
However, I also heard bad things about AR180B (FTF problems)
How good are those?
I am no gunsmith, so I can assemble AR15 or anything else, from the scratch.
I am pretty confident that I can put in a bullet guide into SAIGA and move the trigger group forward.
I would like to learn about AR15 and its modularity (whatever that means, does it mean that you can keep the lower receiver and swap the upper assembleys, barrels included at will???).

it is not that I do not want AR15, it is just that I want something really reliable and tolerable to environment and/or ammunition

D
 
What is your deal with AR15s being unreliable? Have you ever shot one?

Between a Saiga, Keltec and Daewoo, the Daewoo is the only one that has any chance of being as accurate as an AR15. And good luck getting parts for it if you ever have any problems. The Keltec is a bargain basement 223 rifle, if thats what you want, go for it. The Saiga is a great rifle for the money, very durable, but if you want the utmost accuracy, it isnt the one you want.
 
I need a RELIABLE rifle, the rifle which will eat any ammo and any magazines I will feed it.
.
Click to expand...

Then you don't need a semiauto, You need a PUMP:neener:



Rem7615.jpg

I used this rifle equipped with a Williams receiver sight in last months High Power rifle match and placed 1st in the master class
 
You can't have everything & cheap at the same time. Doesn't work like that. I already tried as has 99% of everyone here.


Saiga is excellent, but magazines of a high-capacity nature are expensive, require some DIY gunsmithing and is just a PITA overall. If you can live with 10rds, then it is an excellent choice. Forget 1moa. This is an AK platform rifle. Forget all the lies on the internet about 1moa performance. It's going to give you a nice solid 3moa with decent ammo. That's excellent for a military style rifle.


Kel-Tec is loved by its owners. I haven't seen a single Kel Tec owner bash the rifle. Appears to be reliable and somewhat accurate. Accepts AR-15 magazines, which is a huge plus over the Saiga. I think it feels a little cheap and cheesy, but that's how Kel Tec is. It doesn't mean they aren't reliable. It costs more. If you consider it "pricy" then there really isn't anything else to choose but the Saiga. Also, the Kel Tec uses AR mags, so right there if you consider AR mags to be a weakness of the AR, then the KelTec shares that weakeness. Not saying you are, but some folks do. I see it as a benefit.


I wouldn't even look at AR180 or other platforms. They are not better than the AR-15, and they have far less accessories and options and parts are not as easy to find. And they too are expensive.


Building an AR-15 is easier than converting a Saiga into AK-mode. Neither is difficult though. What makes the AR-15 easier is that you're just putting a few pins in, and using a wrench. It's almost like plumbing, except easier and cleaner. Converting the Saiga is easy too, but it requres a little bit of drilling, a little bit of dremeling etc....You actually have to work on the metal a little.


I would have built a few .223 Saigas if the magazine situation wasn't so bad. I don't like the idea of using 5.45 mags since the lips are angled differently and even if you use a .223 follower, it's just not the same. .223 AK mags are rare and expensive. I don't like having to grind down the mags in many different places or anything like that. The 7.62x39mm is far, far easier - since you just grind down the catch on the rifle and standard AK mags will fit with NO further modifications. I have a 7.62x39mm and it is a very fine, high quality rifle for a dirt-cheap price.


Instead, I went with the AR platform. I can fully gunsmith the entire rifle, mags are $9.99 ea, and contrary to the idiotic internet myths perpetuated by AR-haters, most of whom never owned the rifle and just regurgitate the same old tired story from the 1960's, it is a VERY reliable rifle. At some point you have to weight both sides. On one side, you have around 70+ world militaries testing and accepting it and it being the service rifle of the US military for 40 years, on the other side you have a "movement" of anonymous internet posters bashing it. Some of whom might be 14 years old and get their information from video games.


I haven't had a single malfunction yet in 1,000's of rounds. I use Wolf at the range which is filthy underpowered ammo. I shoot at least 500-600rds without cleaning. I don't even lubricate it during the hundreds of rounds I shoot. It does get gritty and crusty from that nasty Wolf, but it keeps on working flawlessly. Just lube it well when I clean them. Trick is to use quality USGI mags - nothing else. And to buy a quality AR from the get go.
 
You brought up the AR15 first.

It's popular for many reasons, and you should have expected plenty of AR15 fans to post on the matter. :evil:
 
Dude, you are getting a little too hostile for someone asking for opinions. I do not think you ever shot an AR or any other rifle that you are talking about. I do not know where you live, but there are ranges that will rent rifles to shoot and you can see for yourself what you like. AR's are popular for many reasons, reliability is one. You have to properly maintain your weapon for it to work and it will serve you well. If you want to drag it through sand and mud and expect it to fire then buy an AK.
 
I have a keltec SU16

its accurate enough

It folds, which is nice but I dont like ti exposing the hammer the way it does

The bipod is pretty nice for proning out on the ground (soft earth) but pretty useless if shooting off a hard bench

It accepts AR mags which is a definate plus
Its much easier than an AR to clean, atleast I think so
It strips pretty easily

The stock sights on the A model suck because they are plastic
but the B and C model sights are AR sights and can be retro fitted to the A model

I was skeptical of the polymer receiver rail. Wasnt sure if it would hold zero, but it seems to have held.

Gotta like the light weight of it too.

I dont know where you would fasten a sling, but I never felt the need to sling mine.

All in all it is a good rifle. The stock has a bit of flex in both the butt and the forend and I think that is what give sit the cheap feel along with the light weight.

But, with all that said.
I am selling mine and keeping my AR.
Only because the AR can swap uppers and it is my duty rifle and is what I use to practice shooting drills

Your profile doesnt state your location, but if you are near lower MI and would like to shoot the KT or maybe buy it (nudge nudge wink wink) give me a holler
 
If you go with a 223/5.56 Norinco Mak 90 you may indeed get under 3" groups at 100 yards.

BUT:

Steel magazines are pricey (usually over $30 ea.) AK 74 mags will work if you only load 20 rds. Robinson Armaments will sell you new followers that make them hold 25-30.

The Mak 90/NHM-91 and 84S in 223/5.56 have a spring loaded firing pin that is weak, the rifle can slam-fire (double) or even fire upon loading. The bluing is really thin and the wood is crude.

The Bulgarian .223s are better made, but can only use magazines designed for them again $25-40 ea., most you find are plastic.

The Daewoo had a bad reputation for fit and finish and the one I personally looked at NIB in the early 90's had a canted front sight. It's also 'big' for a .223/5.56. Plus side it uses AR magazines. Buy quality ones.
 
For the three you want opinions on, I have the following thoughts.

Saiga, price of mags and getting them converted

Keltec, likely the most practial of the three because it takes inexpensive mags and Keltec will fix it if it breaks.

Daewoo, the coolest of the three choices but parts are hard to come by and the barrel twist rate favors lighter bullets.

Of the three I would get the Keltec. However, in the price range you are asking about (since the Daewoo is in there) I would also consider the AR180B.
At the highend, you might like a SIG 556 (best 223 AK on the market IMHO). I am a fan of the XCR but like the SIG, it is quite pricey.
 
You haven't actually mentioned this sort of rifle at any stage, but you ought to treat yourself to a SAKO or similar bolt rifle with a 2-7 Leupold or similar sized scope. This will make a lovely walkabout rifle. You will love it. I have one and it started as a 222 in 1985 and is on it's fifth barrel. I carried aRuger at work on and off for 20 odd years at work and didn't mind it at all. It's no sharpshooter, but a nice knockaround rifle. Use genuine Ruger mags and they are foolproof.
 
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