Saiga .223 Questions

[CTGunner]

I'm considering a Saiga in .223 - the original is banned in my state. The rifle is relatively inexpensive compared to an AR-15, so what I'm wondering is what I am giving up by going with the Saiga over a run of the mill AR-15.

Questions:
Reliability - Is the AK platform as reliable in .223 as the original? How will it stack up against an AR-15?
Accuracy - How does the Saiga's accuracy compare to the AR at 100 yards?
Aftermarket Support - There seems to be a huge aftermarket for the AR, not sure about the Saiga. How easy/difficult to mount a light and red dot?

I'm also looking for general thoughts/opinions on the Saiga in .223. Thanks folks.

 

[CGRifleman]

My first rifle was a Saiga .223 and I have since upgraded to an AR, but the Saiga is still a good choice. My suggestion would be to get the Saiga and get a pistol grip conversion done to it.
Reliability- with proper care and cleaning, my Saiga only malfunctioned 4 or 5 times out of something like 1000 rounds put through it, which I later chalked up to being the PGC trigger group needing to be broken in. After 300 rounds or so it never malfunctioned again. Saigas also feature a nicer, more durable finish than WASR or Norinco rifles and have a thicker heat shield than other AKs.
Accuracy- As far as AKs go Saigas are more accurate than most. It won't quite stack up against an AR-15, but my best guess is it's capable of 2-3 MOA with a 16" barrel.
Aftermarket- Saigas have a different handguard and magazine than other AK rifles and are not threaded for a comp or flash suppressor. Aside from that, almost any part that will fit an AK will also fit a Saiga, including scope mounts. Mounting a red dot should be easy.

Note that the handguard is only secured at the receiver and not to the barrel (Russian attempt at a free-float?) so it feels a little unstable. I don't know what effect this has on accuracy, but I would replace the handguard with a Tapco Galil-style one or a metal quad rail if you want a tactical rifle.

 

[Jguy101]

Reliability: some people don't like .223 AK's because they claim the case design (less tapered) means less reliability under harsh conditions in which extraction is made more difficult. I suppose it might be true if you're getting a bunch of mud in your gun, but that's not a likely scenario for most users. Nobody who actually owns one complains of unreliability.

Aftermarket: your best option for mounting an AimPoint is the Ultimak gas tube mount, although a couple of companies are offering Beryl-style over-receiver rails (not to be confused with cheap dust cover mounts). You can also use a Russian option on the factory scope siderail. As for lights: there are a number of railed forends out there (both Saiga-specific and standard AK models that can be mounted with an adapter), but if you're only putting a light on it, you can always just mount a rail to the original handguard.

 

[nalioth]

Reliability - Is the AK platform as reliable in .223 as the original? How will it stack up against an AR-15?

An AK is very reliable. The Saiga is an AK.

Accuracy - How does the Saiga's accuracy compare to the AR at 100 yards?

Is the rumor of AK accuracy that bad? The Saiga can keep up with the AR out to 300m (and further, if you do your part).

Aftermarket Support - There seems to be a huge aftermarket for the AR, not sure about the Saiga. How easy/difficult to mount a light and red dot?

As previously noted, the Saiga is an AK. Most AK parts will fit.

 

[CTGunner]

Thanks gang. This is extremely helpful. I want to go pick up that Saiga tomorrow. I have only seen one locally and it's selling for $400. I see some videos of guys talking about getting theirs for under $200. Have times changed that much?

 

[Hatterasguy]

They are a nice little rifle.

In CT the AK74 is the one to get, 5.45 ammo is still dirt cheap.

 

[christcorp]

I definitely like the saiga .223 rifles. They are very good. I've owned/own an AR-15 also. What I did, was went one step further. With some very "MINOR" alteration, you can adapt the saiga .223 to accept and use AR-15 magazines. So I get the best of all worlds. The reliability of the AK-47 rifle, with the availability of .223, and the convenience of AR-15 magazines. Plus, even with the alteration of the saiga to take AR-15 magazines, you can still use the original Saiga magazines if you wanted to. A guy called renegadebuck makes the adapters. I have one and really like it. He can be found on the gunco.net forum.

 

[marsofold]

I have one and love it. Mine has the stock buttstock replaced with an American-made collapsible/pistol grip and uses American magazines to satisfy 922r. The barrels of the .223 Saigas have thicker walls than other Saiga calibers which results in tighter groups, but also makes them a bit heavy. Regular side-attached AK scope mounts all work fine. Saigas are actually 5.56mm rifles, just sold as .223 for marketing purposes (I shoot Israeli 5.56mm ammo in mine). Unfortunately, they do have a 1/10" barrel twist rate which means that the 55 grain bullets work best in them.

The biggest bug-a-boo about them is the magazine situation. They lack a bullet ramp, so require a magazine with one built in. The only decent aftermarket magazines that work in them are Surefire magazines which currently are going for around $28. Otherwise for 922r legal reasons one is forced to replace three other parts with American-made ones, install a bullet ramp, then use either scarce German-made Weiger magazines slightly dremeled to fit the rifle or use plastic Orlite magazines similarly altered. Lately two people have begun marketing snap-in adapters allowing the use of standard AR15 magazines, but they seem to be rather difficult to obtain. So most people take the easy way out and just use the Surefires.

 

[WardenWolf]

Reliability: mine has seen hundreds of rounds, and never jammed once.

Accuracy: mine gets 2.5" groups at 100 yards. Some people have reported better. I used it to hunt javelina.

Aftermarket support: there's plenty of aftermarket mags and upgrade parts available for the Saiga, even without converting it back to a standard AK. Mounting a red dot is simple. The Saiga has the standard AK optics hardpoint on the left side of the receiver. You can buy any standard AK mount (I only recommend the Leapers / UTG lever lock or the BP-02 from Kalinka Optics) and use any Weaver-compatible red dot. You only want to use a lever lock mount because you need to take it off to field strip the gun and clean it properly, and lever lock mounts come off easily and retain their zero. Set screw mounts are ghetto and should be avoided.

Other notes: the 16" Saigas are just as accurate as the 20" Saigas, if not more so, and much lighter weight. Go 16" for a much handier rifle.

 

[Girodin]

Lately two people have begun marketing snap-in adapters allowing the use of standard AR15 magazines, but they seem to be rather difficult to obtain.

I would not buy the Magnolia state Armory adapter. There are way to many reports of MSA not shipping products after people cards have been charged. This is a prolonged problem that dates throughout the two years this company has been in business. The owner was de facto banned from the Saiga forums for his business antics.

 

[wnycollector]

In CT the AK74 is the one to get, 5.45 ammo is still dirt cheap.

+1 on the 5.45x39 recommendation.


I have a Saiga IZ-240 (5.45x39 verison). It has been 100% reliable in ~3000 rounds. I use a MTK-83 side mount with a 2-7 scope on mine. Out to 300 yards it is plenty accurate. At 100 yards shooting off a bench my rifle shoots a consistent 3MOA with $.11/round 7n6 ammo. Both my AR's using silver bear shoot the same 3MOA.

 

[christcorp]

I would not buy the Magnolia state Armory adapter. There are way to many reports of MSA not shipping products after people cards have been charged. This is a prolonged problem that dates throughout the two years this company has been in business. The owner was de facto banned from the Saiga forums for his business antics.

That's why I've gone with the AR mag adapter from Renegadebuck. He's a great businessman and backs his product. And he won't sell you something if he doesn't have one to ship to you. If a person is interested in using AR15 magazines in their saiga, renegadebuck is the one to contact for one.

 

[GunTech]

Will a Galil M-16 mag adapter working in a Saiga 223?

 

[nalioth]

Will a Galil M-16 mag adapter working in a Saiga 223?

Not with modding the rifle irreversibly.

The RenegadeBuck adapter and the MSA adapters are "drop in" and only require a small amount of work on the rifle. This work doesn't affect the use of AK mags if you get tired of using the adapter, unlike the installation of a Galil mag adapter on to a Saiga.

 

[GunTech]

Thanks. I have a couple of Galil adapters laying around.

 

[wally]

The RenegadeBuck adapter and the MSA adapters are "drop in" and only require a small amount of work on the rifle

Can't speak to the RenegadeBuck adapter, but the MSA is not "drop in" and I'd hardly call the amount of material that has to be milled off the front trunion a "small amount of work". I wasn't really comfortable after having done it. But 1000+ rounds later, it seems to work very well and doesn't require the bullet guide installation.

It seems more sensitive to AR mags than most ARs as it doesn't work with the Thermolds (ejecting loaded rounds on the second or third from the last shot which sometimes jams) and some feed failures with a pair of 20+ year old GI mags that give no trouble in my ARs. Several other mags have needed a small "bend" in the mag catch cut out to lock in. So far my experience with a large variety of AR mags would say that P Mags are your safest bet to use with the MSA adapter.

This work doesn't affect the use of AK mags if you get tired of using the adapter

True, but then you'll need to add the bullet guide (drill and tap one hole, no biggie). Installing the bullet guide and using metal Galil mags or the new Tapco plastic Galil mags is probably the easiest and least expensive option. Unless you only plan on a couple of mags as then a pair of Surefires will be cheapest overall.

 

[WardenWolf]

Interestingly enough, I just purchased a Golani rifle. The metal Galil mag that came with the rifle is garbage (in more ways than one), and I'm replacing it with a Tapco polymer magazine. The magazine is the only part of the rifle that's not brand new; no surplus involved in its construction. I'll give you an update on how the Tapco magazine works and whether it fits in my Saiga .223 well. The Tapco mags get good reviews, so I'm optimistic. They're also cheap, at only around $13.50 a pop.

 

[SSN Vet]

I converted a Saiga in x39 and put together a kit built AR in .223 Rem.

Both have iron sights

I shoot the AR MUCH better and attribute the difference to the aperture sights and position of the rear sight.

It's reasonable to say that a Saiga in 223 will be a little less reliable than one with either 7.62x39 or 5.45x39 due to the case Taper. But that doesn't necessarily mean that it is not sufficiently reliable.

If it's legal to convert in your state.... do it. Saiga's are (imo) front heavy in the sporter config, and as mentioned, the 223 models have greater wall thickness than their x39 brothers.

 

[WardenWolf]

Well, I'll put it this way, SSN Vet, I've fired hundreds of rounds through my Saiga .223 and it's never jammed once. It's a 100% gun. When you release the bolt, you're greeted by a smooth chambering sound. I've fired it with hollowpoints, soft points, and FMJ. All flawless. I even took it hunting with a Harris bipod and scope attached, and downed a javelina with it. I usually shoot my Saiga .223 with a scope. I get 2.5" groups at 100 yards with it.

Mounting a bipod to a Saiga is actually very, very easy. You have a couple of options for doing so. One is to buy an Intrafuse handguard for the Saiga and a weaver-to-bipod adapter. The other is cheaper if you have a Dremel or hacksaw: the default sling swivel nut can accept a standard Uncle Mike's 10/32 machine screw swivel. You just have to cut the screw it to make it shorter, and space it with a couple of washers.

 

[GunTech]

WardenWolf, what did you pay for your Golani? Cast or Milled receiver?

 

[WardenWolf]

It was $570 before tax from J&G Sales. It's a brand new Century build with no surplus parts. They had just gotten a new shipment in and they weren't even out on display yet. The receiver is milled. This gun is very solid. It screamed quality when I picked it up. The only cast part on this gun is the stock. It has a Tapco G2 double hook trigger group. There's no rattle at all when you shake the gun. It feels like all one unit.

It had major problems with the included magazine, though. The magazine is surplus, and has a bad / wrong spring and also a bolt groove that's a little too narrow and causes slight bolt hangup. Somewhere along the way it was fitted with an AK-47 spring that was trimmed too short. The spring is too wide for the mag body and not strong enough, resulting in the bolt running over the top shell without picking it up. The rifles themselves get good reviews, though a number of people say the included magazine is junk. Fortunately, new Tapco mags are $13.50.

 

[wally]

Tapco mags get good reviews, so I'm optimistic. They're also cheap, at only around $13.50 a pop

I've five of them, and so far they have all been 100% in my .223 Saiga, Haven't tried them in my Century Golini yet.

Most of the metal .223 Galil mags you can find these days are in very poor shape internally, many have been refinished and may look OK but the springs may be shot, the followers may bind (from rust or body dents) and the locking tab area may be bent in. Why they may look like AK mags they are nowhere near as rugged and if you go down prone hard on the mag the locking lug area can bend leading to feed problems even though it may still look pristine without a gun to put it in.

 

[Girodin]

Yeah between the amount of material one needs to remove from the trunion (and after seeing at least one cracked trunion) and the reports of adapters not running great with various mags has me reconsidering whether I even want an adapter. It is some what of a moot point since I wouldn't order from MSA anyways. I suppose I could look into the Renegade buck one. Can you post picks of yours christcorps?

 

[WardenWolf]

I may get an MSA adapter for my Galil simply because it's the adapter, not the gun, that gets modified to fit. I would not have my Saiga modified for one, though. The Saiga is a perfectly durable and reliable rifle that doesn't need to be messed with. Installing a bullet guide allows the use of cheap polymer Galil mags, which work just fine without structurally compromising the gun.

 

[nalioth]

It's a brand new Century build with no surplus parts.

Don't you believe that for a second. Your Golani has as many surplus parts in it as the law allows.