Saiga .223 Questions

[WardenWolf]

Well, maybe you should take a look at it, then. The finish on all parts match, and none of the parts show any wear, unlike the WASR I own. The gas block definitely isn't original military, as it's solid and can't accept a Galil bipod. Brand new. The bolt and carrier looked as new as my Saiga's when I got it. The handguard retainers, gas tube, etc. are all mint The only parts I can identify as possibly having seen use are the top cover and pistol grip, and they're in such good shape that it's impossible to tell.

 

[nalioth]

Well, maybe you should take a look at it, then. The finish on all parts match, and none of the parts show any wear, unlike the WASR I own. The gas block definitely isn't original military, as it's solid and can't accept a Galil bipod. Brand new. The bolt and carrier looked as new as my Saiga's when I got it. The handguard retainers, gas tube, etc. are all mint The only parts I can identify as possibly having seen use are the top cover and pistol grip, and they're in such good shape that it's impossible to tell.

First off, I think you're overlooking the definition of "surplus".

surplus: Any amount remaining after satisfying need or use

They may be unused parts, but they're still surplus Israeli military parts.

Also, not every Galil accepted a bipod - only the ARM (the heavy barreled squad automatic weapon variant). Century Galils are clones of the AR (the rifle version, designed w/o a bipod)


Another thing: Sandblasting and parkerizing cover up a lot of use (this is commonly used to hide the fact that used parts kits went into a "new" rifle).

 

[christcorp]

Warden, you are incorrect. The saiga MUST be modified. No matter what adapter you buy. Even if you build your own. An AR15 magazine will NOT, under ANY CIRCUMSTANCE, fit deep enough inside of the magazine well to operate. The nubs on the left and right side of the trunnion need to be ground down a little. This is the same no matter what adapter is used.

The MSA compared to the renegade buck adapter has a different issue. On the MSA adapter, unless he has a newer version out, required the front of the magazine well of the trunnion to be altered in order for the adapter to fit. The renegadebuck adapter simply snaps in like it was an original magazine, and snaps into place. Remember again, that ALL adapters will require the nubs on the left/right side of the trunnion to be ground a little to allow the magazine itself to fit all the way in. Want to see for yourself, simply take an AR15 magazine right now, and try putting it inside of the Saiga .223 magazine well. It WON'T go in all the way. You'll see what need to be ground deeper.

As for removing the adapter and shooting the original magazines, there are no bullet guides or anything that has to be done. If you remove the renegadebuck adapter; just like it was an original ak style magazine, you can put in an OEM or Surefire magazine, just like the day you bought the rifle. If a person really wants an AR15/Saiga .223 magazine adapter, and doesn't mind a little grinding, (I did mine with a dremel), then I definitely recommend the renegadebuck adapter. Not saying the MSA isn't good; just that their earlier designs required MORE modifying of the gun, Plus, I question their business practices. A LOT of unhappy customers. Some waiting MORE than 1 year just to get their adapter. Go with renegadebuck. It's a no lose situation if you really want an adapter.

 

[WardenWolf]

Christcorp, I never said the Saiga did not need to be modified. I was referring to their Galil adapter and talking about installing it on a Galil, which does *not* require modification. I know full well what must be done to fit a Saiga with one of these adapters. I've only owned one for over 2 years, converted it myself, and been active on the Saiga 12 forums for the same length of time.

My baby:


In hunting configuration:


That rifle bagged me a javelina.

 

[ksfoa]

I wouldn't get the .223 if nothing else, then the unique magazine. If you are going to shoot .223/5.56 then I would recommend a gun that uses ar-15 magazines. If you shoot 7.62x39 then I recommend a gun that uses standard ak mags. if you shoot 5.45x39, again I recommend a standard mag.

I want a CZ-58, in 7.62x39. Its an overall improvement to the ak but the magazine is different. You can use regular ak mags in them but you need to mod them permanently.

Its not the end of the world to get a gun with a not absurdly common magazine but I think it makes sense for re-sale and other reasons to get a gun that doesn't use proprietary mags. Just my cents.

 

[nalioth]

Its an overall improvement to the ak but the magazine is different. You can use regular ak mags in them but you need to mod them permanently.

The Vz58 is not an AK in any way, shape or form. It is not an "improved AK", but a completely different design.

As far as modding AK magazines to fit a Vz58 - you're gonna ruin a lot of magazines that way.

 

[christcorp]

Christcorp, I never said the Saiga did not need to be modified. I was referring to their Galil adapter and talking about installing it on a Galil, which does *not* require modification. I know full well what must be done to fit a Saiga with one of these adapters. I've only owned one for over 2 years, converted it myself, and been active on the Saiga 12 forums for the same length of time.

My baby:


In hunting configuration:


That rifle bagged me a javelina.

No problem. I understood your post to say you were buying the MSA adapter because it didn't require adapting the rifle. Being this thread was about the saiga .223, I didn't catch the transition to the golani/galil.

 

[MK11]

On the other hand, the Vz58 IS CT-legal.

 

[Girodin]

I may get an MSA adapter for my Galil simply because it's the adapter, not the gun, that gets modified to fit.

If you want to send a money order off to a guy with a 2 year history of taking people's money and not ever sending them their orders that is your prerogative. I say sending a MO because that is how he is asking people to pay now. At least before you had a hope of getting some recourse through your credit card company. Not so if you send this guy a MO.

Its your money but if you join the ranks of those who were charged and never got their stuff then don't say you were not warned!

 

[sansone]

most low end AR's will be more accurate than most saigas but who cares. I sell both and I tell customers to choose according to what feels comfortable in the wallet. Both are reliable. One is stamped sheet metal held together with rivets, they both shoot according to barrel quality. The saiga comes with a certificate documenting some gentleman test firing it for grouping. He lists the group size in centimeters. I have seen some AR's with crappy aftermarket barrels that shot no better.

 

[christcorp]

Yes, both the saiga and the AR are reliable. Except the Saiga costs about 1/3rd the price, and will literally shoot any ammo you feed it. (Love that AK design). My AR; while a bit more accurate, is picky on it's ammo. Especially the $4 a box steel case ammo. The saiga is a "True" Russian AK. It's damn near indestructible. And for under $100, and very little work, you can make it accept AR-15/M16 magazines. If I could only afford 1, I would choose the Saiga. The convenience and supply of .223 ammo and AR15 magazines; the quality and reliability of true AK rifles; many parts interchangeable between the ak47 and/or ak74; and all for 1/3rd the price.

 

[Girodin]

most low end AR's will be more accurate than most saigas but who cares.

What type of accuracy do you figure a low end AR will have? I have no issues saying that my saiga is not as accurate as my Noveske but I'm not sure it really gives up that much (or anything) to some of the lesser ARs. Also I don't feel those lesser ARs strike as good a balance between reliability, durability, and accuracy. Please don't read that to mean that I believe ARs are unreliable per se. I do not.

The saiga comes with a certificate documenting some gentleman test firing it for grouping. He lists the group size in centimeters.

Having owned several saigas I would not take that certificate as a measure of the weapons potential. I would posit that most saigas will be able to shoot better than that. I don't think the person shooting through who knows how many a day is really carefully trying to shoot tight groups. Nor have they likely found a load that rifle likes. Also just changing the trigger linkage makes it much easier to shoot the saiga better. Also while optics don't make the rifle more accurate per se, they let a lot of shooters shoot better. I personally find the open AK sights limiting when it comes to shooting small groups at a distance. In sum, most rifles can probably shoot smaller groups than the one that comes with them.

 

[ksfoa]

The Vz58 is not an AK in any way, shape or form. It is not an "improved AK", but a completely different design.

Correct. I should have said "the VZ-58 is a higher grade 7.62x39 fighting rifle." More of a new paradigm than an improvement, I suppose. The XCR could be the 3rd generation then. Proprietary mags in 7.62x39 is a bad idea though.

 

[Maverick223]

Correct. I should have said "the VZ-58 is a higher grade 7.62x39 fighting rifle." More of a new paradigm than an improvement, I suppose. The XCR could be the 3rd generation then. Proprietary mags in 7.62x39 is a bad idea though.

Despite the appearance (or silhouette) and adoption of the same cartridge the VZ.58 is in no way related to the AK series of rifles. It is fairly closely based upon the Stg.44 Sturmgewehr. With regards to magazines, the VZ.58 design is superior because it affords similar reliability and durability with half the weight (they are Al. rather than steel) and also feature a LRBHO which is absent on the AK platform. Also, I don't know why you consider a proprietary magazine a bad idea, as nearly every successful design has used a purpose-built magazine (to include the AK/AKM, M16/M4, FAL, M-14, G3, et cetera).

 

[ksfoa]

Well all magazines were proprietary at one point, but my issue with using proprietary mags in 7.62x39 is that the AK-47 magazine already dominates the US market, in other countries the VZ mags seem to be more common. Furthermore, the XCR mags don't work amazingly well and they can only be used in the XCR and possibly other 7.62x39 uppers using the AR platform.

I like the prevalence of AK 7.62x39 mags and thus I don't see the benefit in using other mags. I am thinking to some degree about SHTF scenarios here because if you just go to the range then it probably would never matter how rare your mags were.

 

[WardenWolf]

most low end AR's will be more accurate than most saigas but who cares.

I have outshot low-end AR's. The guys to the right of me at the range each had AR-15's. They were obviously low-end, and the guys were having some trigger problems with most of them. When we went to check targets, one of them said to the other, "How come you can't shoot that good with your AK?" I looked at their target, and was unimpressed. I had a clearly tighter grouping. My rifle cost around 1/2 what theirs did, too.

I don't worry too much about magazine availability in a SHTF situation. The whole point is to not be dependent on other people, so you should buy enough mags for yourself. If you have 4 30-round magazines, you're good. Just remember, though, that you need a way to carry those magazines. Fortunately, Soviet magazine pouches and vests work well and are relatively inexpensive.

For the Saiga, probably the cheapest and best way to attain magazine availability without compromising your gun is to install a bullet guide. Then you can use the $13.50 Tapco Galil magazines. Tapco's magazines are high quality and very reliable. I just got one for my Golani to replace the worn out mag that came with it. I really don't recommend AR-15 mag adapters. The amount that has to be removed from the trunion frankly scares me. Use the Galil magazines. These lock right into your rifle like they belong there.

 

[Maverick223]

I like the prevalence of AK 7.62x39 mags and thus I don't see the benefit in using other mags.

Availability is great, but it doesn't make it worth the added weight nor the lack of a LRBHO in my opinion. Even though I would love to see VZ.58 magazines in 20rnd configuration, the benefits far outweigh the detriments. Additionally the VZ.58 magazines may prove to be easier to attain in a time of need simply because the rifles are less common, additionally they are well constructed (it might be constructed of aluminum, but it isn't a little AR mag) so I believe having gobs of spares is superfluous.