.224 Valkyrie

[Gtscotty]

I guess the new cartridge that Federal teased in their video a few weeks ago is out of the bag:

http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2017/10/04/larue-surg-224-valkyrie-big-3-east/

Seems pretty interesting to me, although less so in the SBR demo'd for that article. I wonder what length barrel the 2,700 fps figure is from?

The case itself is based off the 6.8 SPC, similar to the .22 Nosler, but shortened to allow mag feeding with longer bullets, and without the rebated rim.

I would assume that since the cartridge is designed to run 90gr bullets at mag length, some of the longer lighter weight bullets like the 75gr and 80gr ELDs might work well as well. With Federal starting to push more reloading components, cases for this cartridge might wind up being cheaper and more available than the .22 Nosler.

 

[hdwhit]

Thank you for sharing that.

I have a fascination with wildcat cartridges. From the silence on the boards related to it, I may be the last person in the country still loading the 5.7mm Johnson.

And when I was a graduate student I was on one of many teams doing foundational work on a 5.56x45 replacement.

So, as a cartridge that can be fired from a modified AR platform rifle, I find the 224 Valkyrie intriguing - even exciting. The 6.8 SPC cartridge is very close to what the team I was on came up with in the early 1980's as an optimal replacement for the 5.56, so it is always very close to my heart. But then my inner-engineer breaks through all the emotionalism and starts asking things like:

• Why neck the 6.8 SPC to 5.56 rather than 6mm or 6.5mm where the bullet choices are so much broader?
  
• How much longer are we as a species going to try to push ever heavier bullets at upwards of 3,000 fps out of a 22 caliber barrel?

And then I remember the never-realized promise of the 5.7mm Johnson.

 

[Gtscotty]

• Why neck the 6.8 SPC to 5.56 rather than 6mm or 6.5mm where the bullet choices are so much broader?

• How much longer are we as a species going to try to push ever heavier bullets at upwards of 3,000 fps out of a 22 caliber barrel?

I'd venture a guess that the reason they went with a cartridge that delivers heavier .22 caliber bullets as opposed to larger 6mm or 6.5mm bullets is simply the limited amount of powder that can be jammed within the confines of the case head size and mag length. I think to really get an increase in long range performance, you'd have to use heavier 105+ grain bullets in 6mm, and I think that it was probably more feasible to get a 90gr .224 bullet with similar BC up to a useful velocity in that small package than a 6mm or 6.5mm.

I don't really see this this new cartridge as a pitch to the .gov as a better battle cartridge, the 6.8 really fits those requirements better. I think the .224 Valkyrie is basically an attempt to wring the most mag-length performance out of an AR platform for long range steel and target shooting. It seems to me like it might fit those parameters rather well, with added benefits in that .224 bullets are usually relativity cheap, recoil should be negligible, and the shooter can tap into an already a fairly robust supply of 6.8 mags and bolts.

 

[mjsdwash]

wow, a 5.56 with special brass, half the barrel life, triple the cost, and no available commercial ammo in ten years, exciting! If that 90grain bullet hits 2700 FPS out of an 11' barrel, it may be interesting, but if its out of a 24' test barrel, why bother. You can seat 75 grain bullets at mag length now, is that 15 grains really worth it? I them well, but the performance overlap is getting to be a joke.

 

[VoodooMountain]

I don't get it.

A very mild 243 that is even more overbore because of the 223 bullet. For the recoil, cost, powder, and barrel life I think there are better options.
And it still isn't fast enough to bridge th 22-250 gap from the way it looks or at least may not be able to due to twist rate to shoot a 90 gr. Pill.

I do love to see innovation and love the idea of companies getting on board with new ideas.

 

[someguy2800]

If it's designed for a 90 grain bullet it's probably going to need like a 6.5:1 twist which is just silly. I think for practical purposes the 22 nosler with its 223 bolt face is much more interesting.

 

[USBP379]

Federal is supposed to have ammo out before the end of the year if a recent video with Mark Larue is correct.

The cartridge is being touted as what the 22 Nosler should have been although it probably should have been skipped all together. It might have some limited appeal to varmint shooters and a few deer hunters but it won't erode the 5.56 market.

I just don't see any real appeal to the idea.

 

[hdwhit]

Gtscotty wrote:
I'd venture a guess that the reason they went with a cartridge that delivers heavier .22 caliber bullets as opposed to larger 6mm or 6.5mm bullets is simply the limited amount of powder that can be jammed within the confines of the case head size and mag length.

Actually, as I have posted elsewhere, when I was in graduate school, I participated in one of many preliminary studies of a replacement for the 5.56x45 and what we came up with was a 6.5mm bullet launched from a cartridge case whose head diameter did not at the time exist. The 6.8 SPC case is close to the optimum case dimensions for a 6.5 mm bullet that our team came up with. Far from optimizing the "limited amount of powder", the 6.8 SPC case necked down to a 224 bullet is horribly wasteful of cartridge capacity as it can contain far more powder than is necessary to maintain a pressure of 60,000 psi behind the heaviest 224 bullet that is practical to put in the cartridge.

The quest to launch ever heavier bullets of a .224 barrel has already exceeded its rational limits and simply putting a bigger cartridge case behind it will not resolve the problem.

With appropriate powder choices, I can put upwards of 60,000 psi behind a 75 or 80 grain .224 bullet using a 5.56x45 case with no case capacity issues. So, why would I need even more powder capacity to reach the same pressure - a pressure that already exceeds the limits of the bolt and barrel?

...I don't really see this this new cartridge as a pitch to the .gov as a better battle cartridge...

I concur.

The Army and Navy (through the Marine Corps) long ago concluded that any future battle cartridge would need to be in the 6mm to 6.5mm class.

This cartridge is, ultimately, a solution in search of a problem.

 

[Gtscotty]

The quest to launch ever heavier bullets of a .224 barrel has already exceeded its rational limits and simply putting a bigger cartridge case behind it will not resolve the problem.

With appropriate powder choices, I can put upwards of 60,000 psi behind a 75 or 80 grain .224 bullet using a 5.56x45 case with no case capacity issues. So, why would I need even more powder capacity to reach the same pressure - a pressure that already exceeds the limits of the bolt and barrel?

I'm not sure what you're getting at here, obviously peak pressure is not really the important indicator of the energy a cartridge can impart to a bullet, the area under the pressure curve is. An extension of your logic would suggest that there is no reason for the .300 Win Mag because a .308 could hit the same max pressure levels using 220gr bullets... with much faster powders. Obviously the .300 WM will push a 220gr bullet to far higher velocities than a .308 because even though the max pressure might be the same, the .300 WM is using larger amounts of slower powder for a greater area under the pressure curve. The same idea would apply to a larger case necked to .224 as compared to the 5.56. If they both have the same max pressure, but one uses a magazine length cartridge to push a 90gr bullet to 2,700 fps out of a certain barrel length, and the other only clocks 2,500 fps out of the same barrel length with a single feed only cartridge, all things equal, which would you prefer?

Obviously the 5.56 isn't the last word in .22 centerfires, otherwise the .220 Russian, .22 BR .22-250, and now .22 Nosler would have no takers. Heavier higher BC .22 Cal bullets do better in the wind than lighter bullets, this is why faster twist .22-250s are becoming more popular. A cartridge that ups the longer range ballistic performance possible with mag fed cartridges in the AR-15 may not be interesting to everybody, but to folks that are looking for that kind of performance, the .22 Nosler and the .224 Valkyrie offer something a bit different than the average 5.56.

 

[telomerase]

It's all part of the alien conspiracy to disarm humans by making sure that no two rifles use the same ammunition.

(Shotgunners may be near-extinct Denisovs with low-pressure, mostly harmless toys... but you don't see them making 13 gauge doubles just for the luck

 

[CoalTrain49]

I like the idea that this new cartridge uses .224 bullets but that's about all it has going for it.

When the military decides on a new cartridge all of these newcomers will become relics, including this one.

I'm still waiting.

 

[Legionnaire]

No interest to me in an AR platform. Might be pretty cool in a lightweight bolt action with a 22-24" barrel ...

 

[C-grunt]

This is a target round. It has super sonic flight out to 1200 yards with a 20 inch barrel. That's impressive.

5.56 isnt going anywhere any time soon. Especially now that M855A1 is showing more penetration and better wounding at range. Hell even when we were still using the flawed M855 95 percent of the stories from your friend's uncle's cousin who was "Spec Ops" and said "the 5.56 doesn't put them down", turned out to be complete BS.

 

[berettaprofessor]

All you naysayers! I'd shoot it just for the name. Just think of the reaction around the gun counter. "Yeah, I shot that possum at 2500 yards with my "Valkyrie." I can smell the envy.

 

[CarJunkieLS1]

There are some of us who can already say that...it's called the 7mm Valkyrie

 

[7.62 Nato]

Thank you for sharing that.

I have a fascination with wildcat cartridges. From the silence on the boards related to it, I may be the last person in the country still loading the 5.7mm Johnson.

And when I was a graduate student I was on one of many teams doing foundational work on a 5.56x45 replacement.

So, as a cartridge that can be fired from a modified AR platform rifle, I find the 224 Valkyrie intriguing - even exciting. The 6.8 SPC cartridge is very close to what the team I was on came up with in the early 1980's as an optimal replacement for the 5.56, so it is always very close to my heart. But then my inner-engineer breaks through all the emotionalism and starts asking things like:

• Why neck the 6.8 SPC to 5.56 rather than 6mm or 6.5mm where the bullet choices are so much broader?
  
• How much longer are we as a species going to try to push ever heavier bullets at upwards of 3,000 fps out of a 22 caliber barrel?

And then I remember the never-realized promise of the 5.7mm Johnson.

My first thought when I heard about it was "Why not 6mm?". I reload for 6x45 and love it. I just need more time for it. I also am interested in the 5.7mm Johnson. I'm looking at a rifle I'm interested in, and of course I'll need dies. I also think an AR platform 30 Carbine would be great.

 

[Gtscotty]

New Federal video on the .224 Valkyrie. Beware of super awesome radical music.



It looks like they are going to introduce it with 4 different loads/bullet options.

The 100gr Fusion is pretty interesting, I'm thinking the penetration of a 100gr bonded soft point on deer and hogs would be somewhere well beyond adequate...

Some folks doing the calculations on another forum are guessing that a 7 twist should work for pretty much everyone with the higher velocity of this round. From looking around, the advertised velocities seen to be from a 20in barrel.

I just got all my parts to finish putting together a .223 Wylde SPR type rifle. If the reviews look good once this round hits the streets I might have to pick up a barrel/bolt and give it a try. I still have some 6.8 brass laying around that I might be able to just form and trim.

 

[CarJunkieLS1]

Ok so that 100 grain fusion has my attention! That would make this round worthwhile to me.

 

[1stmarine]

I guess the new cartridge that Federal teased in their video a few weeks ago is out of the bag:

http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2017/10/04/larue-surg-224-valkyrie-big-3-east/

Seems pretty interesting to me, although less so in the SBR demo'd for that article. I wonder what length barrel the 2,700 fps figure is from?

The barrel has to be a 22-24" based on that much powder.

IMO there is nothing drastically new here.

The 22 wildcats have been around for quite some time and this is not a new development.
you have 22 versions from the 6.8, 6.5 grendel and 5.56 case itself that do quite well
from the AR15. This 22 form a 6.8 was done before and now it is being renamed for
commercial purposes.

The Good:
- It is a 22 bullet so some people can use 22 bullets to reach higher velocities and
w/o running out of room (COAL) in standard AR magazines.
- Value packs of 22 bullets are inexpensive and 6.8spc is a great donor round for
the brass than by itself is an amazing hunting round.
- It can make 1000+ yards supersonic but there are other calibers that can do that
too including the 223 and AI themselves.

The Bad:
- Ammo will not be cheap. While it is an easy wildcat if ammo is costly one can easily produce their
own ammo for a lot less dollars.
- The thing is the 6.5 Grendel necked down to 22 caliber is also available as a
wildcat and in both the 22 and 6mm versions it has a slight advantage over
the 22 Walkery and also shoots flatter and further than the parent 6.5 grendel.
- A well though out 5.56 reload with good brass and perhaps a PRI, ASC, etc..
magazine can be loaded up to 2.31 and can produce very decent trajectories
using the 5.56 brass with bullets from 75 to 85 grains. After all we are comparing
the best bullets they can find with the longest possible barrels of 24".
For specialized use folks can resort to the 5.56 cats using center stack VLD magazines
that while will not break the 2700 fps barrier with the 90gr, will not be too far behind.


The Ugly:
I think caliber chatter is misleading with conflicting information.

Airborne Arms HERJA - 1300 yard supersonic AR-15 cartridge .224 Valkyrie - The Firearm Blog

Here folks might get the impression they can achieve this from a 11" barrel that is not
possible. This is misleading.

Larue Stealth 2.0 In .224 Valkyrie - Big 3 East - The Firearm Blog

- That 1300 yards claim is not really relevant. We should pull out ballistics with the field data
and then see what we get under what conditions even then what? There is not much left
in the small bullets other than paper punching and perhaps kill some chipmunks for those
who can hit them.

- That is where the 6mm comes into play. They can advertise all they want but the 22 caliber
assortment of bullets other than match purposes is very limited when it comes to hunting.
One could say the 6mm hunting assortment starts where the 22 ends and the 6mm wildcats
based on both the 6.8 and 6.5grendel can also shoot that far and on top put more momentum
on the target. But they also provide a much larger assortment of bullets in the 80-105gr
to hunt white tail with more wounding and momentum.

-Another thing is that in order to use the longest possible bullets one needs a 1:6 twist.
With those twists varmint bullets cannot be pushed to the full potential at the risk of exploding as soon as
they leave the muzzle due to jacket separation.
I think the marketing is pretty misleading. Just take a 223R superformance varmint round with a 1:8 and
see if we can produce those speeds with a 1:6 twist and w/o disintegrating popular bullets. 223R superformance
BTW are not too far behind the 22-250 in the 3500fps range.


IMO It is great to see they might have the barrels and dies ready but if one wants to build their own
one could use the reamer and dies of the legendary 224 winchester that has similar dimensions
close to the base so the 6.8 is a perfect donor. One will ask to ream the throat for a proper
freebore depending on bullet and magazine situation.




On top, the 6mm Hagar could be used to explore more performance than the 22 walkery.
That has similar dimensions and extend the case 2mm for extra performance.





But the ideal round if one was going to make a more versatile round it would be in 6mm. IMO the 6.8 spc simply necked
down to 6mm can be made with the 6mm wasp reamer and dies since the hagar is too long for the best bullets to be
efficient in the AR magazine...





Or one could simply do a 6mm Grendel that is going to allow you to shoot the 105gr past 2700fps.
This is one of the versions of that called 6mm AR that is also available for the AR.




So in summary and IMHO nothing new here.

Just think about it even the 223 AI that is so simple can be shot from the AR in native version or from
center feed magazines that also work in the AR and can put bullets past 1000 yards w/o problems but
the 223R match can also do that with 5.56 brass and careful reloading. So not sure how practical yet another
22 is specially with the limitation on bullets.

I can give you examples where the 6mm beats the 22 caliber every single time when shot from the
same cases including the 6mm-223(6x45) and 6mm TCU.

Want something simple that can make a substantial difference for many uses in the AR? ... get into a 6mm cat.

Fyi...
105gr from a 6mm Grendel will do 2700fps too and you have higher G1 coefficients than the 90gr 22 bullets.
These work great from a popular 1:8 twist.

For the 6.8 in 6mm the sweet spot is going to be the 90-100gr bullets for hunting but a 95gr TMK will also work
great for 1000 yards target.

The 6x45long or 6mm TCU loaded from a center stack magazine shot from a AR can put a 105gr bullet to 2700fps from
a 22" barrel also using CFE. This will be using 5.56 LC or WWC brass loaded to 5.56 type of pressures something
that is not possible with larger cases. So this might be attractive to folks who like to use 5.56 brass and do not mind
the 10rd count of a centerfeed mag. Obviously with a bolt action like the AI magazine system this is perfect.

Trade Offs... The world of ballistics is always a world of trade-offs of some sort.

 

[Gtscotty]

The barrel has to be a 22-24" based on that much powder.

I've read that the numbers were from a 20" barrel, where did you get 22" - 24"?

I think the marketing is pretty misleading. Just take a 223R superformance varmint round with a 1:8 and
see if we can produce those speeds with a 1:6 twist and w/o disintegrating popular bullets.

I think it's too early to label the marketing "pretty misleading" since there isn't much info out on the round at all yet, and from what I've read, before other companies started leaking, Federal didn't plan on introducing the .224 Valkyrie until Q1 2018.

The only info I've seen directly from Federal is video I posted. What was misleading about that video? None of the other stuff you cited was put out by Federal, mostly TFB secondhand.

Why do you think the .224 Valkyrie will need a 1:6 twist? Folks doing the calculations and taking about it over on accurate shooter seem to think even 6.5 is conservative and 7 would work for most people.

There is not much left
in the small bullets other than paper punching and perhaps kill some chipmunks for those
who can hit them.

I think the point is mostly shooting targets with an AR-15, who cares what it can kill at 1,300 yds?

22 Walkery

..... Really? Don't be like those guys that can't spell "Creedmoor" to save their lives.

Fyi...
105gr from a 6mm Grendel will do 2700fps too and you have higher G1 coefficients than the 90gr 22 bullets.
These work great from a popular 1:8 twist.

What relatively common 6mm 105gr (comparable in price) bullets have a G1 better than the .563 of the 90gr Sierras? All of the 105gr Bergers have lower G1s.

 

[1stmarine]

I've read that the numbers were from a 20" barrel, where did you get 22" - 24"?

Run it in QL and extract 100-150fps for a gas gun.

6mm bullets are cheaper and some have better ballistic coefficient that stabilize pretty nicely in 8 twist barrels...

22cal 90gr bullet 30-40cents each....
https://www.midwayusa.com/product/1...-224-diameter-90-grain-hollow-point-boat-tail

6mm 107gr bullet 28-35 cents each...
https://www.midwayusa.com/product/1...243-diameter-107-grain-hollow-point-boat-tail
https://www.midwayusa.com/product/1...243-diameter-105-grain-hollow-point-boat-tail

Perhaps some folks do not care about hunting anything over the 6mm and restrict to a couple of match bullets for 1000+ yards target that need a 6 twist? OK.
I don't think there will be too many lining up but maybe I am wrong.

After all, federal are the ones who started the nonsense, posting pictures about how this is better terminally talking.
As we know, this is unacceptable for medium game from a terminal stand point.
This is also misleading to someone who might be new to hunting and the sport.


From Targets To Trophies

The 90-grain Gold Medal Sierra MatchKing 224 Valkyrie can tackle the most elite competition.
However, loaded with other available bullets, the cartridge is also lethal on varmints and medium game.
Gel shot at 100 yards with 60-grain Nosler Ballistic Tip (P224VLKBT1).

....

Still the 6mm wins in both target and any other uses. There is also the 6mm BR that is the king in BR and proven good long range in the AR15.
From my experiences working with all sort of wildcatters both in person and online who like to explore the AR15 platform I believe that 90% of
the folks do not care about dedicated bolts and magazines for the job. Most are going to fit high end barrels and parts to start with anyway.

Also the "mild recoil" marketing point is kind of pointless. We all know 6mm, 25, 6.5 and 7mm up to a grain are pretty manageable recoil
wise and in the end one gets on the end side what they invest in recoil wise. Simple physics.

Also with new 308 ARs in the same weight category as the AR15 having a unique selling point for long range target with a 22 is pretty
restrictive by itself.

IMO for a light round the 22 nosler and now these are missing the point since the caliber to go to is the 6mm in terms of huge assortment for
anything and also cost.

 

[Gtscotty]

After all, federal are the ones who started the nonsense, posting pictures about how this is better terminally talking.
As we know, this is unacceptable for medium game from a terminal stand point.
This is also misleading to someone who might be new to hunting and the sport.

The leaks of exactly what was coming out first came from other companies that Federal consulted with during development. That video just came out afterwards a few days ago.

Why is a 100gr bonded soft point unacceptable for medium game from a terminal standpoint? I totally disagree with that statement. 110gr 6.8mm bonded bullets have worked fine for me on deer, it's a big stretch to pretend that a 100gr bonded isn't going to kill a deer just because it's .224" diameter. Fusion bullets area known to expand well, and with a SD of .284, penetration should be more than enough.

You might want to watch the video, they aren't talking about using 60gr ballistic tips for medium game.

Again, I don't know where you're getting the 1:6 twist stuff from, but it doesn't seem to be based in reality, read what I wrote above please.

I guess we'll see what barrel length the advertised numbers are from as more info comes out, I'm betting 20".

Those 105gr and 107gr 6mm bullets fine have BCs as high as the 90gr .224. To match the 90gr .224 you have to go to a 110gr SMK, 115gr Berger, etc. What does the price comparison look like then? Apples to Apples.

I don't have any vested interest in this cartridge, and may not ever buy something so-chambered, but the knee-jerk reaction to it is puzzling. At least they aren't introducing a new Uber Nosler/Weatherby whompin' stompin' magnum or something like another 300 BLK-esque blaster with a mortar-like trajectory. I'm interested in seeing all the actual information on the .224 Valkyrie before dismissing it out of hand.

 

[CoalTrain49]

I'm always a little skeptical of new cartridges from ammo manufactures.

6 mm is becoming the favorite BR cartridge and pigs will fly before another 22 will be able to compete with the 223 and 22-250.

I've got a 5 gal bucket of .223/5.56 range brass and I leave a lot of it on the ground. That's what I call a very popular cartridge.

What drives these ammo companies to market this new stuff?

 

[someguy2800]

I'm always a little skeptical of new cartridges from ammo manufactures.

6 mm is becoming the favorite BR cartridge and pigs will fly before another 22 will be able to compete with the 223 and 22-250.

I've got a 5 gal bucket of .223/5.56 range brass and I leave a lot of it on the ground. That's what I call a very popular cartridge.

What drives these ammo companies to market this new stuff?

Because they are tired of selling you $8 per 20 ammo that everyone makes. They want to sell you $25 per 20 ammo that only they make. I'll be stunned if this is still on the shelf in 10 years.

 

[Orcon]

I'm always a little skeptical of new cartridges from ammo manufactures.

6 mm is becoming the favorite BR cartridge and pigs will fly before another 22 will be able to compete with the 223 and 22-250.

I've got a 5 gal bucket of .223/5.56 range brass and I leave a lot of it on the ground. That's what I call a very popular cartridge.

What drives these ammo companies to market this new stuff?

Aside from the ammo market, the rifle market needs new cartridges to sell new rifles. Most gun owners don't see their firearms as a consumable product, they consider them to be a durable good much like a car or a home appliance that will last for years or decades.