.22LR stopping power?

[Okiecruffler]

Shot placement is key, but should some monkey set loose a wrench, I want to make a bigger hole.

 

[horge]

Cordex, you're way off.
It wasn't entirely "specious reasoning" --it was inanity as well
and while we're at it, I could stop you as a threat with a BB gun if I had to.
I'm betting you could do the same to me.

This can all be silly, really. using something as nebulous as "stoppping power" as either a benchmark or even a unit of measure. To discuss "stopping power" without valid and sufficiently broadly-based statistics (don't even trot out that snow job by Marshall and Sanow) to paper over the huge case-to-case variance in factors like BG disposition, shooter disposition and marksmanship/skill with the firearm, actual firearm used, environment and risk assessment, , ad nauseam... is pretty close to pointless. You seemed to think along the same lines earlier in this thread: some variables have to be eliminated to make use of historical/statistical samples.

Otherwise this is a discussion of Physics, Human Physiology and Psychology. So we turn to Fackler and the like, who deal in more-easily defensible and definable measures like penetration, fragmentation, temporary and permanent wound cavity, etcetera ---but less often something like "stopping power".

So...

Q: Will a .22LR stop a typical BG (whatever that is) under typical conditions (whatever those are) from a typical .22 Firearm (whatever that is) that the shooter is typically-skilled (ugh) with, generally disregarding exactly where the bullet actually hits?
A: The honest answer for me is maybe.

Q: Under those same conditions (relatively) would you stand a better chance at BG stoppage hitting with .45 ACP? .357SIG? .458 Lott? (well, okay, I'm getting silly)
A:


A non-debate.

horge

 

[makdaddy03]

I have told this story many times. But here goes again. I know of a little old lady that shot a 200+ pound bad guy Center Mass. (Chest) She shot this guy with one 22 short from a short barrel revolver. In her own words "He dropped like a swatted fly".

 

[TonyB]

"It's hard to beat a 22lr to the tear duct."-Col.Jeff Cooper
His reasoning is that you'll practice more because of cheap ammo,and no recoil.....I tend to agree,however for my life,I carry a Sp101 w/ 38+p+......but if you only have a 22,and shoot it well,I would say carry it.
I couldn't shoot my MKII that good to depend on it 100%.....

 

[Dorrin79]

.22 is not a stopper.

But I'd rather have my MkII target in my hands (knowing I could hit the target with an entire magazine in a couple of seconds) than, say, my Kel-Tec P11, which I probably couldn't hit the target with at contact range.

I would never choose .22 for defense if there was a better option - but I'd rather have a .22 than nothing

 

[Double Naught Spy]

Sure enough, the old lady may have shot a guy with a .22 short and he dropped. There are people who have died as a result of a non-life threating wound to an extremety because they went into shock. My CHL instructor is also a Dallas cop and witnessed a suspect shock COM with a .44 magnum before he surrendered. Still vertical, he was cuffed and walked himself to the ambulance and on arriving at the hospital, walked in the emergency entrance.

Yes, .22s kill a lot of people. The .22 also happens to be one of the most numerously produced rounds around the world.

Dead is dead. I love that statement. Assuming the person is killed, then dead is dead. And Cooper or whomever may note that a .22 to the tear duct will produce the desired stop, so will a BB from my airgun traveling a 900 fps. The eye isn't a well protected area. The trick isn't penetration but hitting the intended location.

If you think a .22 to the eye has a good chance of stopping a person, then a 9mm or .45 acp is going to be great and may still be great if you are off target by a bit.

 

[hotshotshoting]

"I have told this story many times. But here goes again. I know of a little old lady that shot a 200+ pound bad guy Center Mass. (Chest) She shot this guy with one 22 short from a short barrel revolver. In her own words "He dropped like a swatted fly"."


people react differently to getting shot all the time.....


for example if someone is on pcp he may not even feel being shot by a .45 one of the only way to stop them is to break the bones holding them if you are interested in actually stopping them...


some people will fall to the floor if they cut their finger....

 

[Drgong]

The .22 LR is would suprise on how many have died from it. However it does not kill or knock out QUICKLY which you need, that and it is a rimfire which have bad reputations for misfiring.

I rather have a buckmark then nothing, however, if a guy breaks in your house, and you hit him a few times with a .22, you might eventally have killed him, but he still might be able to kill you and assult your daughter before he goes "dang I hurt" and die from a holed intestine that gone bad.

 

[sevin8nin]

You carry what you want. If you feel comfortable throwing little 32gr bullets at someone that's fine. I have no doubt a .22 can and will kill someone, but you need to have excellent shot placement, and penetration is key. The ballistic tests for various .22lr rounds show that .22s do not penetrate enough for me to feel safe with it.

I carry a .45 because I like the large wound channel and good penetration. A bigger permanent cavity means more blood loss and tissue damage, which is more likely to stop someone if they're trying to kill me. And you need good penetration so you can hit vital organs.

If some old lady dropped a guy with one shot from her .22 then that's fantastic. But I'm not trusting my life to the stopping power of a .22, or the reliability of a rim fire.

 

[Geno]

Precious few pistol calibers calibers possess immediate stopping power. I tend to relegate the .22LR to dispatching varmints to 175 yards, targets, and small game. I wouldn't use it as a stopper.

 

[hotshotshoting]

where did people come up with the word of "stopping power" the only stopping power actually exsists in movies...


other than that people stop under different conditions... some may only need to be injured while the others need to be physically incapacitated...

there is no 1 true number... other then perhaps a 105mm artillery cannon, and up

 

[Scoutsout2645]

Well, after a recent rash of home invasions in my neighborhood by a gang of ninja squirrels, I've decided to switch to .22lr for my primary HD round...

On a more seroius note, does anyone have any site suggestions that show wound channel patterns in ballistic gel for .22 solids and hollow points? I'm honestly curious in how the round performs relative to more "conventional" HD rounds like 9mm, .40 or .45 hollow points. I agree that this can be a very lethal round, I just don't think it has the ability to transfer enough energy into your target to put him on the ground, and THIS is the characteristic that you need in a HD round. A CNS shot can do this with a .22, but if you can pull off that kind of pinpoint shooting under high levels of stress in low light conditions, then you're a better man than I am!

 

[hotshotshoting]

i will do the test for you when i get a chance... any barrel lengths you want to test? or any particular brands of ammo?


(i have a shooting range and we perform ballistics tests on a regular basis)

 

[theotherwaldo]

Yep. Except in cases of perfect placement, the .22lr has pretty good killing power but relatively lousy stopping power. It doesn't do you or your family much good if the knife-wielding maniac dies two days after slicing you and yours up into cutlets.
Not the gun/cartridge to choose for self-defense.

 

[Scoutsout2645]

hotshotshoting:
My wife's looking to pick up a Ruger MkIII in either a 5 1/2" or 6 7/8" barrel, so I'd be most interested in those lengths. A 4" in the .38 and .40 would suit me too. For ammo, let's use Winchester (arbitrary choice, but I've had decent luck w/ their ammo and it's easy to find anywhere plus this keeps results consistent)

.22LR: Super-X 40gr round nose and 40gr power-point lead hollow point.

then, for comparison, I'm interested in:
.38 Special +P: CCI Blazer 125gr JHP
40 S&W: Supreme 180gr SXT

then, if you feel the desire to play some more:
9mm, .45 and/or .357 Magnum: pick a JHP you like and fire away

I appreciate that, thanks.

 

[hotshotshoting]

honestly in .22lr the best defensive ammo we have seen has been stinger.. it basically gives you almost rifle ballistics out of a handgun..

i will run these tests hopefully on tuesday or wednsday we will see how work goes if i have time or not!

i will run those for you as well, but i will also run stingers


basically the rough information i will give you is i will show you the recovered round
i will give you a brief description of the wound cavity, and i run tests through fabric, leather, denim.. etc simlulating clothing

 

[R.W.Dale]

With the critters I've shot with a Handgun .22 far and away the most lethal load has been the Agulia 60grn super sniper subsonics. Being so long and heavy they really don't stabilize at all except at the closest ranges because of this they tend yaw and tumble the instant they hit anything resulting in instant death for all the critters I've shot with em. This load kills armadillos faster than even cor-bon .380 JHP's. Accuracy from a long gun stinks but at handgun ranges they shoot OK



http://thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=299751

 

[Defensory]

The .22LR is completely inadequate for serious self-defense.

The Jeff Cooper "tear duct" quote, even IF accurate, is taken out of context. Colonel Cooper wasn't one to mince words, and he was known to disparage even the use of 9mm's and .38 Specials for self-defense, sometimes even outright ridiculing them.

He made it very clear during his lifetime that he considered large caliber cartridges, like the .45 ACP and 10mm, fired from semi-automatic pistols---to be the best for handgun self-defense.

As for the tired "Shot placement is the only thing that matters" canard, I'll let the former assistant director of the FBI Firearms Training Unit deal with that:

Emphasis mine:

"Shot placement is obviously critical, and our test criteria presume that the shot is placed in the vital area of the body which contains the brain, upper spinal cord, heart and aorta/vena cava. This area runs from just above the eyes to the diaphragm, and is about 4 inches wide.

But, as our experience in Miami amply illustrates, shot placement is only the first part of the equation. Jerry Dove placed his shot perfectly. Bullet performance is critical to translate shot placement into an effective, incapacitating wound. If shot placement was all that mattered, we could arm all Agents with .22’s.

Secondly, perfect shot placement may be difficult to attain in the stress and dynamics of a shooting incident. The larger calibers offer a “margin of error” in that where a smaller bullet may just miss the aorta, for example, the larger one in the same placement will damage it."

Special Agent Urey Patrick III
Assistant Director, FBI Firearms Training Unit
Quantico, VA

http://www.firearmstactical.com/pdf/fbi_10mm_notes.pdf

....

 

[R.W.Dale]

Defensory I think at this point we all get it. In your world anything short of a 20mm cannon firing HE is inadequate for as you always put it SERIOUS self defense

and you know what most of us posting on these threads don't care. So please find some OTHER drum to pound already. Or at least some other functions on your browser besides

 

[cornman]

The .22 is out of a rifle is fine for most HD situations. Almost all other calibers are over the top when it comes down to it. If you can get by with it then it works. BTW one does not need 500 HP to get across town when in almost all case a 100hp compact will do the same thing.

 

[Okiecruffler]

I knew a fella once what shot a zombie thread with an RPG loaded with a silver irradiated missile. Sucker just kept showing up EVERY 5 YEARS.
Spooky, ain't it.

 

[azhunter122]

Use round nose bullets and get lots of practice! .22 is a good caliber just I'd rather prefer something else for SD. But if that's your only choice it's better than nothing.

 

[Loomis]

Muzzle energy of a 22magnum from a rifle barrel is equal to a 9mm para from a pistol barrel.

Think about that before scoffing at rimfire for self defense.

22mag from a pistol is approximately equal to 32 auto from a pistol, in terms of muzzle energy. I would consider a 22mag revolver to be useful as self defense weapon. I'd have to think about 22LR some more.

 

[Defensory]

Posted by Loomis:
Muzzle energy of a 22magnum from a rifle barrel is equal to a 9mm para from a pistol barrel.

Think about that before scoffing at rimfire for self defense.

22mag from a pistol is approximately equal to 32 auto from a pistol, in terms of muzzle energy. I would consider a 22mag revolver to be useful as self defense weapon. I'd have to think about 22LR some more.

^Straw man alert!

The .22LR is what is clearly being discussed in this thread. NOT the .22 Magnum. I believe you're the first person in the entire thread to even mention the .22 Mag.

That being said, the .22 Mag's stopping power isn't even close to being enough for me to stake my life on it.

Massad Ayoob and the significant majority of high-level handgun instructors in the country, recommend nothing smaller than the 9mm and .38 Special.

I'd be surprised if there's even one military unit or law enforcement agency in the country that uses the .22 Mag. It has never proven itself as a reliable fight stopper in all the years it's been around.

 

[loneviking]

22LR for defense? My mind goes back through the years to the night a woman was brought into the E.R. having been shot by her angry ex. He dumped the entire 15 rd. magazine of a semi-auto 22 into her at close range. She had to go to surgery, and stayed a few days in the hospital--but she lived and was alert and talking when she came in.

I'm not using a 22LR for self defense...