.22lr vs 9mm fmj at close range

[Justaman]

I often read accounts about the 9mm fmj being a poor man stopper in combat. On the other hand I have also read a few accounts of how deadly the luger pistol was in ww2. My question is what would you consider an equivalent to the 9mm fmj in terms of "stopping power"? I would at least think it would do more damage than a .22lr.

It appears that the .45 acp ball ammo is a good man stopper simply because the bullet is so fat. Is this what makes 9mm fmj much worse than .45 ball?

I am interesting in the effectiveness of ball ammo in military combat.

 

[Geronimo45]

The .45 FMJ is generally seen as better - not just because it's fat. Also because it has better chances of stopping inside the guy you shoot. The 9mm FMJ usually zips right on through, not expanding much. A .45 tends to expend a lot of its energy onto the target = more injury to the little goose-stepping type you just shot.

Now, when you use specialty expanding ammo, the 'power gap' between the two rounds isn't so big. The 9mm has a lot of velocity - and can do lots of damage while slowing to a screeching halt.

Just from my own (very scientific) tests on pineapples and boards, I'd be comfortable with .45 FMJ for SD use. I'd want better ammo for 9mm... or a very fast trigger finger.

 

[Dr.Rob]

9mm vs. 45 is a very popular topic here and you can find a ton of information by using the search funtion.

As per WW2, the Luger can penetrate a US GI Steel helmet at longer range than a .45 could pierce a German one.

A 9mm, even in FMJ is a lot more powerful than a 22.

 

[Ivy Mike]

the effectiveness of ball ammo in combat (from handguns) comes from their ability to penetrate deeply enough and make the largest hole possible. More damage is the key here.

I don't know why Geronimo mentioned expansion with FMJ ammo as any deformation would be pretty minimal. Also don't get the whole energy dump theory with FMJ either. Energy dump is pretty pointless as you want more penetration and possibly an exit. Its another hole to bleed from. The only time you might get better wounding from FMJ is if it starts to yaw or fragments. Yawing or tumbling isn't a real bad wounding mechanism. Fragmentation is much more damaging, but is unlikely in a slow pistol round. Dr. Martin Fackler did a good job debunking energy dump theory.

Either way, you stand a decent chance of an exit wound with ball ammo assuming no armor. .22 is only gonna create a .22 caliber wound and that whole bouncing around the body is really overblown. It might ricochet once or twice, but you're still only digging a .22 caliber hole.

if you're gonna carry ball ammo, get the biggest stuff you can. Other than that, carry good quality expanding ammo.

 

[bcochran]

multiple questions

You raised multiple questions. Of course, they have been answered multiple times. However, there is always someone new.

Consequently, let's provide you with some questions that you will also answer.

1. What is a more effective man-stopper - shooting against bare skin or shooting through layers of clothes (think about that when you read about the military concept of shooting center mass)?

2. Do you think that there are any prohibitions on the military selection of round designs and why? Hint - the Geneva Conventions.

3. If fmj is the most effective round on shooting large game or is it a better selection to use softpoint or hollow point ammo? Ever consider why deer are hunted with those rounds and not universally with surplus fmj rounds in 30-06 or .308?

 

[Soybomb]

I'm not all that convinced that 9mm ball performs all that differently than .45 ball. I think perhaps its one of those classic gun myths like how a .45 will blow a man's arm clean off and how you don't have to aim with a shotgun. It is bigger and it would be my choice, but it certainly isn't "so fat" to me.


To me I think handguns are poor weapons and ball doesn't help any of 'em.

 

[Gord]

Remember, also, that 9mm ball is traveling at a much higher velocity than .45 ball.

From this thread:

Cartridge designation: US M882 ball
Cartridge OAL: 1.165inches or 29.591mm
Powder used: HPC-26
Powder weight used: 6.0 grains
Case Mouth Pressure: 31,175psi (avg), 36,250psi (max)
Bullet weight: 112 grains
Bullet length: .610 inches or 15.494mm
Bullet velocity: 1263fps measured @ 15 feet

.45 ball is somewhere in the 800-900 range.

I'm a fan of 9mm and I don't buy into the BS that .45 is a one-shot stop, certain death, liquefy the center of mass versus 9mm feeling like a bee sting, soak up 15 rounds to the chest and keep coming crap, but that's with standard defense ammunition.

If I'm limited to ball ammo that simply punches a hole in and out of the target, I'll take the biggest bullet I can have, thanks.

 

[MCgunner]

Well, I didn't sign the Hague convention so I ain't carryin' no ball, myself.

 

[Jack2427]

Not to pick nits, but it was the Hague Accords, which was signed by some nations, so as to prevent using ammunition that was "unduly injurious" to the guy on the receiving end. The accords do not specifically address HP ammo, nor do they address 00 Buckshot-which is really injurious.

Some might say that the unstable editions of the .223 round were prohibited as they tended to tumble when they hit and cause a really bad wound. And they might be right!

During WWI the Germans threatened to shoot allied soliders captured with shotguns or shotgun ammo, as they considered the shotgun to be prohibited. Says something about how they feared our trench shotguns.

Many nations did not sign the accords so for most purposes they are pretty useless today. Many of our special ops types use HP or some form of expanding ammo. I suspect that our current enemies do not adhere to the Hague Accords-just a guess on my part. On the other hand I do not know if a beheading knife has to be really sharp under the accords, or do you have to use an ax?

Many nations use FMJ ammo simply because it feeds more reliably than HP or SP ammo, as most military weapons are not made to really close specs.

 

[Justaman]

I knew about the convention against expanding ammo. I have guns in all different calibers so I see the virtue of each of them. I am just am curious about the wound results of ball ammo in military campains. I am specifically facinated with the pistols used in WW2.

 

[Ivy Mike]

3. If fmj is the most effective round on shooting large game or is it a better selection to use softpoint or hollow point ammo? Ever consider why deer are hunted with those rounds and not universally with surplus fmj rounds in 30-06 or .308?

Most deer aren't large, dangerous animals with thick hides and heavy bones. A softpoint or hollowpoint is probably fine for any deer you're likely to see.
Now, get into something tougher and you'll appreciate a round that penetrates deep enough to stop a critter that can kill you.

Most surplus isn't a modern hunting round. Thats why you don't often see people seriously hunting with it. There are better bullets and powders for the purpose.