The Problem with 9MM FMJ

[IBT98]

I've noticed something with 9mm FMJ, that is sucks. I get it "Pewhnatrashun" but that is the problem....

I've been doing a lot of research and by that, watching a lot of shootings, I've noticed something, .357 Sig, .45 ACP , 9mm JHP when they hit the attacker in the Thorax kill square, drop an attack, easily then they yes, they cease life function.

Yet, the 9mm FMJ, it just hits them, they stumble and ball up and cry. I don't want to start a caliber war but the truth has to be said, energy kills, when someone gets hit by a car, that is energy, specifically Kinetic energy which is also work, work being done on the target.
The more KE a round has, the more work it will do, that means the more force it will apply on a target, now a 9mm FMJ with 954.36FPS and only 340 ft*lbs in FMJ...Without getting toooo "sciency" it typically over penetrates and transfers only less then 100ft*lbs of energy, which over penetration, low energy transfer...means, its like a knife wound...very little damage other then the PC

I hate to say it but 9mm fanboys need to realize that over penetration will not only get other people killed but it may not do much to an attacker, 9mm JHP that isn't going to over penetrate is the key, 9mm FMJ....sucks...I hate to say it

 

[ljnowell]

I'm not sure the real purpose of your post.

1. Any FMJ in a pistol has the exact same problem. Not just 9mm

2. Everyone knows JHP are key to pistol performance.

3. I have never seen a "9mm fanboy" bragging about FMJ ammo.

Seems to me that you simply came here with an axe to grind. Don't be surprised if the mods disagree with your method of posting.

 

[Deaf Smith]

WelL IBT, all I can say is..

"You know you can't keep letting it get you down
And you can't keep dragging that dead weight around
Is it really all that much to lug around
Better run like heck when you hit the ground"

So just use JHPs and this to shall pass.

Deaf

 

[pezo]

Your average 9mm jhp in the right spot will leave a perp DOA.
If not, multiple hits in rapid succession quickly will as well. Geez. Rocket science. My head hurts.

 

[Manny]

9mm FMJ sucks but .357 Sig FMJ rocks? You do know they are both the same bullet with just a little more velocity for the .357 Sig, right?

 

[IBT98]

Well, its a difference in Kinetic energy, same diameter, different energy

 

[C0untZer0]

Well first of all I can't even find a 9mm round that has 340 ft-lb of energy at 954.36 ft/sec

In order for a projectile to have 340 ft-lb of energy at 954.36 ft/sec the projectile would have to weigh 168 grains.

But that aside, I don't mind if you get "sciency", I'm really curious to know how you determined that a 9mm projectile traveling at 954.36 fps, having 340 ft-lbs of energy, only deposits "less then 100ft*lbs of energy"

People have actually calculated this and documented the results?

 

[Luger_carbine]

Are you referring to 9mm Luger or some other 9mm variant?

 

[C0untZer0]

I've been doing a lot of research too, not watching a lot of shootings, but reading a lot of threads, I've noticed something, the threads that start out by saying "I don't want to start a caliber war" inevitably start a caliber war.

 

[rcmodel]

I've been doing a lot of research and by that, watching a lot of shootings

Where do you watch a lot of shootings?

You must live in a really bad part of town!!

Maybe you should just move??

Anyway, my advice would be to take cover when the shooting starts.
Instead of just watching.

rc

 

[reddog81]

So 9mm has too much energy and over penetrates but at the same time doesn't have enough energy to cause serious damage. That makes sense...

 

[eldon519]

If you're concerned with kinetic energy, you've already revealed you don't know much on the topic. Also, the FBI disagrees with your assessment.

 

[edmo01]

From what I gather, the following tends to be:

- Defensive pistol ammo generally lacks stopping power when compared to rifles and shotguns... Keep shooting until the threat stops. This may take more than a few rounds.

- People who are concerned with the risk to bystanders by over penetration think every round they fire will be a center-of-mass hit and the bad guy will be equal to 12"-18" of ballistic gel behind 4 layers of denim. They never miss and sending a missed round down range at full velocity will never happen.

- My defensive handgun caliber is better than yours and is equal to the hammer of Thor.

Edmo

 

[IBT98]

I just watch videos, oh no...hahaha Im not bragging

 

[IBT98]

That is dangerous, we are told that by "experts" but in reality, a powerful handgun round, a good aim to the thorax cavity, and he's done....dumping rounds everywhere is dangerous...

 

[IBT98]

Its a generic round, typical energy, just numbers very close to average loads, but I never specific mass, we can calculate that using the algebraic equation of calculating mass from velocity and KE however, but its energy transfer, there is lots of data honestly, I can post more sources?

 

[rcmodel]

But energy really doesn't matter in handgun calibers.

A .22 LR, or a 9mm through the heart or head will kill you just as dead as fast, as a .500 S&W Magnum.

rc

 

[1911 guy]

The issue I find with the post is merely that it's old news. FMJ in any caliber penetrates more, expands less (if at all) and usually results in a relatively clean wound. Clean being comparative, after all, were talking gunshot wounds. However, bullet technology has advanced to the point where a great many jacketed hollow point rounds exist for all of the common defensive calibers, including 9mm. Designed to expand reliably in the performance envelope of the 9mm, they put it on equal footing with any other reasonable caliber.

I saw someone take a few rounds of 9mm hardball center mass. He became very agitated before finally succumbing to his wounds. I would venture to say that the final result might have been achieved much more quickly if he had been shot with a decent jacketed hollowpoint. No real science, just an observation and opinion.

 

[guyfromohio]

Leaking holes stop attackers when the holes leak enough. 9mm FMJ is for plinking and practice. I don't think many advocate its use for self defense. Any FMJ for that matter.

 

[rcmodel]

I don't think many advocate its use for self defense. Any FMJ for that matter.

Well, except almost every military force in the world, that is.

rc

 

[guyfromohio]

RC.... Touché. However, purely speculation, if those in charge of ammunition choices in the military were given the choice....money not being considered....treaties/rules not being considered.... Would ball ammo still be issued?

Edit: After thinking a bit more, the military may indeed choose FMJ. I would say that a battlefield is far different than a civilian defensive situation. Penetration would be necessary and preferred with the distances and gear involved along with the assumption that the guy behind and beside the target are also trying to kill you.

 

[1911 guy]

Yep. Cost. Bean-counters make those decisions, not soldiers, not generals, not even the taxpayer who might be willing to foot the bill.

While special ammunition is indeed being issued to certain units, general issue is, and will remain, ball. It's really a cost/benefit ratio. Those units have been determined to be more effective in a given role with certain ammunition. Everybody else gets the cheap stuff. Because while it isn't a perfect world, it works and actually works well.

In reality, that was one of only a very few times I saw a pistol used while i was in. I can recall two, the one I mentioned and I fired my pistol in the other. The other five years, 363 days, they were dead weight to carry. Rifles are the driving force behind ammunition decisions. Handguns aren't used often enough to even be considered for changes by the military.

 

[rcmodel]

Would ball ammo still be issued?

Yes, it would.

* It feeds more reliably then any other bullet shape.
* It is cheaper to make then JHP.
* It doesn't get clogged with dried mud in a fox hole.
* It penetrates light vechicle sheet metal, light battlefield cover, steel helmits, and heavy winter clothing better then any magic JHP bullets.
* All 9mm military weapons were designed for it, exactly.

* And last, but not least, they don't care if it is the most effective magic bullet ever devised by man, for all the above reasons.

You get hit and fall down in combat because a FMJ failed to stop the guy that shot you back??
The guy next to you, or the one behind you, steps over, or on your body and takes your place!!!

rc

 

[GRIZ22]

There are also shootings where someone is hit multiple times with a 9, 40, or 45 JHP and they keep running and fighting. There are also cases of a 9 FMJ where the target is dead before it hits the ground. The target's reaction is due to where it's hit. Watch a video of the Reagan assassination attempt. Officer Delahanty and James Brady go down real quick. They were shot with a 22.

Most JHP ammo in 9, 357 SIG, 40, or 45 will go through a target. You need penetration to hit vital areas.

Who loads that 9mm FMJ that goes 954.36 fps and generates 340 ft lbs of energy? That would be about a 170 gr bullet. I don't know any manufacturer loafing that heavy a bullet.

I think your analysis is flawed.

 

[Bobson]

...energy kills, when someone gets hit by a car, that is energy, specifically Kinetic energy which is also work, work being done on the target.

When you get hit by a car, it's not the energy transfer that's killing you; it's primarily (1) trauma to vital organs, damage to the CNS, etc; and to a lesser extent (2) mass tissue damage.

These are the same things that kill you when you're hit by a bullet - it doesn't matter if it's an FMJ, JHP, etc. An FMJ ripping through your spine will put you down just as quickly as if it were a JHP. An FMJ to the brain may or may not be as damaging as a JHP, mostly because there are so many areas of the brain that don't actually support life itself. With a JHP, the odds are increased (due to the expansion) that the bullet will strike one of those critical areas.

The instances where people are hit with 9mm ball and keep on trucking likely has little or nothing to do with the fact that the round was FMJ, and a lot to do with where the round hit the person. A quality JHP to the abdomen, arm, leg, shoulder, butt, whatever - isn't going to be significantly more destructive than an FMJ. Yes, the odds are increased that the bullet will hit a major nerve or blood vessel if it's expanding, but short of that, you're going to see very similar effects on the victim. There may indeed be more blood loss, and there will be more dramatic trauma to the tissues, but if a major nerve, blood vessel, or life-supporting organ wasn't involved, it won't be enough to mechanically stop the individual. The point of a JHP isn't that the round magically stops whatever it hits, or to "transfer more energy." It's just to increase expansion, which (1) increases odds of involving a major nerve/BV/organ, and (2) reduces risk of overpenetration. That's it. While the body can physically die simply from stress resulting from mass tissue damage, that isn't anything you would see from being shot a few times with a bullet sized projectile from ANY normal/common handgun. We'd need to be talking about third-degree burns to an large percent of the body's surface area, multiple limbs being severed or crushed, etc. Even in those cases, this stress-induced death isn't what you might call rapid.

In sum, and to re-cap, we all know FMJs are not reliable man-stoppers. But then, neither are JHPs. Neither is an FMJ or a JHP from a .45 ACP, or a .50 AE. The only reliable man-stopper is shot placement which would damage the CNS.