24" Mosin Nagant?

[BillinNH]

I was just wondering if anyone has ever seen or made a Mosin Nagant with a 24" barrel. Seems to me it woud be long enough to make use of the powerful 7.62x54R round and still be a manageable length for field use. I know none was ever officially produced but someone must have tried it. How about you, Cosmoline, you know all about these guns ;-)

If I do it , I guess I would get one of the surplus barreled actions and have it professionally cut down and crowned. But what to put it in? A 91/30 stock may actually be too long for a 24" barrel. I could put it on my M38 but then I wouldn't have the M38 to play with. Any suggestions?

Is this a good idea or a bad idea?

Thanks.

Bill

 

[ArmedBear]

http://www.boydsgunstocks.com/BrowseEbus/Riamosinnagant.asp

Nice sporter stock, not too expensive. Unfinished, I think, so a fun and satisfying project to hand-rub with B/C Tru-Oil alternated with steel wool 'til it looks really nice.

24" is the standard full-length barrel for similar rounds in sporting rifles, with 22" also common. You could make a nice hunting rifle out of the thing.

I don't know anything about the powder and burn profile in 7.62x54R like Wolf, but the 7.62x54R Winchester brass ammo I shot in my Mosin carbine seemed like it would work well in a rifle with a few more inches than the M38, but not too many.

 

[Cosmoline]

There's no original 24" Mosin that I know of. The 91/30's ran about 28", M-91's about 31", carbines about 20". The Finns experimented with barrel lengths a great deal in the 1920's and 30's. They came to the conclusion that a length of about 27" was the best length for the round, and they never had much use for the 20" carbines. At 24" you'll get more flash and blast and the few inches off the end won't add much to portability. Indeed it will likely throw the balance off.

But really, if you want a standard 24" or 22" hunting rifle, why not get a used Savage or Ruger 77? I've got a 24" Mosin over in the corner, the product of Bubba. It used to be a Finnish M-27 with an "F" bore but no "D" upgrade, and would have been valuable in its original condition. Now it's just a source for spare parts. Hacking these war rifles into "a nice hunting rifle" misses the whole point of owning them in the first place, and is increasingly stupid as their value goes up.

My suggestion is to put the hack saw down and learn to use and appreciate these war rifles as they were designed. Some people will try to convince you it's simply not possible to hunt with anything besides a 22" or 24" scoped hunting rifle with a traditional Monte Carlo stock. Why not try something different and get a 91/30, use simple shims and the well-known nail fix to accurize it, wax the wood down, load it with 180 grain Winchester SP's and take it into the woods. You'll be following it the footsteps of others.

http://www.kevos4.com/Wartime Photos 3.htm

 

[ArmedBear]

I guess I assumed there was a good reason for cutting the barrel down.

I've seen a few guns with the first few inches of barrel all rusted. I'm not sure how that happens, unless the gun's left standing muzzle-side-down in a flood, but it does happen.

If the gun's OK, I'd leave it as-is. Wasn't trying to get anyone to Bubba up a good example.

That said, modern American ammo may well have different powder in it from what the Finns had in the 1930s. Is there any reason to believe that ROUND, not the particular loading they used back then, would perform appreciably differently from a .30-06 with an equivalent load?

 

[Cosmoline]

Well, like a .30'06 it will perform better out of a 28" barrel than a 24" barrel.

 

[Sylvilagus Aquaticus]

"If the gun's OK, I'd leave it as-is. Wasn't trying to get anyone to Bubba up a good example."

An excellent conclusion, AB. I've hunted on several occasions with a VG 1899 vintage M96 Swede. Why leave it in the safe when it could enjoy a cold winter day and have fun?

On the other hand, my SwedeScout was originally a Swedish M94. What I'd have done to have gotten it before Bubba carved the stock into a pallet skid and grafted the buckhorn sights onto it...

I don't recall ever seeing a barrelled action MN available. I suppose they're out there. Given that, and the problems putting a modern scope mount on one that doesn't rely on using the rear sight mounts for a mount point, it could work, but I'd probably be more inclined to look for a Mauser-type barrelled action, say, a Howa. I like the 7.62x54R, but they don't stock ammo for it in rural E-Z Marts, let alone many suburban big box Jumbomarts.

Is the 7.62x54R the reason you're considering this undertaking, or is it, (like I do) that it sounds like a cool project on the face of things?

Regards,
Rabbit.

 

[Onmilo]

The Polish produced a Mosin based rifle designated 91/98/25 that used features of the Mauser incorporated onto a Mosin-Nagant based platform.

The rifle is Mosin in appearance and features a 24" barrel, Mauser sights and caliber is 8mm Mauser.

Quantities of these rifles were still in store when the Germans invaded in 1939and they were seized and subsequently issued to Cossack collaborators employed on the Eastern Front.
Losses were immense and not many of these rifles survived the war.
They are very rare today.

 

[R.W.Dale]

24" barreled mosin....Wanna see a picture

 

[BillinNH]

Rabbit says:
< I've hunted on several occasions with a VG 1899 vintage M96 Swede. Why leave it in the safe when it could enjoy a cold winter day and have fun??

I agree. Guns should be fired, not just owned.

<On the other hand, my SwedeScout was originally a Swedish M94. What I'd have done to have gotten it before Bubba carved the stock into a pallet skid and grafted the buckhorn sights onto it...>

Also agree. But a sporterized M96 came into my possession and I have no problem shooting and enjoying it.

<I don't recall ever seeing a barrelled action MN available. I suppose they're out there.>

Centerfire Systems frequently has them in full and carbine length. Vey inexpensive,

< Given that, and the problems putting a modern scope mount on one that doesn't rely on using the rear sight mounts for a mount point, it could work, but I'd probably be more inclined to look for a Mauser-type barrelled action, say, a Howa. >

I have a scout type scope on my M38 MN and it works great.

<I like the 7.62x54R, but they don't stock ammo for it in rural E-Z Marts, let alone many suburban big box Jumbomarts.>

Handloading is the key. The cartridge invites experimentation. Surplus is cheap but I try to stay away from it due to corrosive primers.

<Is the 7.62x54R the reason you're considering this undertaking, or is it, (like I do) that it sounds like a cool project on the face of things?>

It strikes me as a good project. I have no intention of bubbaing a complete gun, just an "orphaned" barrelled action that has no stock ,trigger group, etc. associated with it.

Bill

 

[BillinNH]

Krochus says: <24" barreled mosin....Wanna see a picture>

Very niice looking , Krochus. Where did you get the gun, what stock, who did the barrel work,etc.

Bill

 

[Red Tornado]

use simple shims and the well-known nail fix to accurize it

Cosmo (or anyone)
I've heard of this, but can't find it now. Do you have a link? My 91/30 could always stand to shoot a little better.
Thanks,
RT

 

[Cosmoline]

The nail fix involves simply removing the existing front post and replacing it with a common 6D finishing nail, then filing the nail down to match your zero at 100.

As far as shimming, first check it without shims by removing the handguard and running a dollar bill between the stock and barrel. On most Soviet 91/30's you will find it impingement in several places. The shims serve to lift the barrel up. Don't lift it too high or it will impinge with the handguard and get pushed down. Just a dollar's height is enough. You can check final fit by assembling the handguard and grabbing the end of the stock in one hand and the barrel in the other, then jostling the stock up and down. The handguard and stock should knock the barrel on the upswing and the downswing. It doesn't need a lot of clearance. If you need more you can do a little bit of sanding inside the stock and handguard, but use care as they're quite thin.

The Finns used shims extensively, and one way to tell you've got a rifle the SA messed with is if old brass shims fall out when you open it up. The below shims are ones I made myself out of some old aluminum thingamagig I found laying around in a parts box. No idea what it was for, but when I clipped it with the metal shears and filed it into shape it worked great as a shim.

 

[Red Tornado]

Thanks Cosmo. I'll check for impingements and if I find any, I'll try that and see if it helps.

I can't tell how thick your shim is, but it looks to be about twice or 3x the thickness of a soda can. Is that approximate?

On the nail trick, I've put Mojo sights on my 91/30, so that's not going to help me any. I know it's not original, but with my eyes, the Mojo's help a lot, and I can always change them back. I can get about 3" now, and I'm not sure I'll be able to do much better, but a guy's gotta try.
RT

 

[Cosmoline]

Mojos are great. I've been using them since the first generation, but these days I prefer to stick with the post & globe. The double aperture system is ideal for close to medium range shots, but it doesn't work as well for fine shooting out beyond 100 meters. I've been training myself to use the whole of the iron sight system and reference points on the target itself to center the post. It's an old method that allows you to hit precise targets even though they're too far away to see clearly.

I didn't caliper the shims, but yeah they're about equal to three or four soda can layers. The typical brass Finn shims are thinner than that but thicker than a soda can. They stacked them up until the barrel was freed. I remember one M-39 in particular that must have had a dozen shims in it. At some point it makes you wonder why they didn't send the stock back down the line for the wood shop to mill more clearance.

3 MOA in a Soviet 91/30 is good. In my experience if there's impingement you can get down to 2MOA with the shim fix. With some handloading you might be able to get close to MOA, but there's a limit to the accuracy of the Soviet Mosins. The barrels are thin and start to loose accuracy as they heat up. I've found the pre-'41 91/30's to be more accurate on average than the wartime ones, and of course a good crown and fairly good lands are important as well. One key is to try out your rifle with an array of ammo, though ammo selectivity is more of an issue with Finns than Soviets.

 

[.45Guy]

Bill, I have an Izhevsk that I bought with the intention of restoring to military configuration. However, I didn't think to measure the barrel and it's in your ballpark. I warn you, this thing is hideous, coated in matte black krylon. PM me if you're interested.

 

[R.W.Dale]

Very niice looking , Krochus. Where did you get the gun, what stock, who did the barrel work,etc.

I bought the rifle as you see it from a local pawnshop so I have no Idea who built this sporter, The stock is an older Fajen the sights are lyman.

 

[BillinNH]

.45guy says:
<Bill, I have an Izhevsk that I bought with the intention of restoring to military configuration. However, I didn't think to measure the barrel and it's in your ballpark. I warn you, this thing is hideous, coated in matte black krylon. PM me if you're interested.>

Wow, if it looks that bad, please post a pic so that we can all enjoy it.

Sounds like a major stock re-do so I think I'll pass on it. Thanks anyway.

Bill

 

[.45Guy]

There she is in all her craptastic glory

 

[Cosmoline]

But it's tacti-cool!

 

[BillinNH]

Looking at the pic of .45guy's MN I notice that the stock has been cut off at the rear barrel band so it's hard to tell what model it is. Looks to me like it is a model 38 with a 20" barrel so it would be hard to make a 24" barrel out of it

Bill

 

[.45Guy]

Nope, definately longer than my 44. That's the shame of it, somewhere in between 38 and 91/30.

 

[BillinNH]

<Nope, definately longer than my 44. That's the shame of it, somewhere in between 38 and 91/30.>

So just exactly how long IS that barrel and who do you think made it that length? Very curious.

Bill

 

[White Horseradish]

I've seen a number of Mosins cut off and with a blade front sight like that installed. I think it must have been a popular home conversion at some point.

 

[ArmedBear]

Maybe the muzzle-end rifling was mucked up. That, for example, would be a good reason to cut an unwieldy 27" barrel down to the standard 24".

M/N barrelled actions do surface now and then, too. Not every gun stored by the Russkies was a pristine collectible. Sometimes it's sporterize, part out, or toss in the garbage.

I refrain from making too many moral judgments here.

 

[Koobuh]

"There she is in all her craptastic glory "

Nice.

White Horseradish, I'm pretty sure the replacement front blade is one of ATI's products. Probably just high-impact plastic.

I'm working on an already-hacked M44 with the hope of improving its rather poor accuracy. My dad found out that cutting a couple more inches off of an M44 will significantly increase its volume potential , so I'm not going to take quite as much off as he did.