.25-.308? What the heck!
- Thread starter WYcoyote
- Start date
- Status
Considering the bewildering array of rifle cartridges available today, I can't really imagine how anyone would ever conclude we have a "gap" left large enough to wiggle a fine hair through.
Whew! That's 322 cartridges spanning just forty-three hundredths of an inch.
And you know what's NUTS? I can think of a few that AREN'T there! (Though, to be honest, there are a LOT there I've never heard of.)
Personally, I think there's too large a gap between .50 BMG and 20 mm, with only 5-10 entries up in that range.
Yea, 322,
And currently chambered in one of the most popular rifles of all time,
the Remington Model 700 BDL?
5
(.243,.270, 7mm RM, 30-06, .300RUM) off their website
Great choice.
See my point?
I do have a .243 and I like it a lot.
I have shot my biggest mule deer and biggest whitetail with it.
I also have a 25-06 with a 22" barrel.
Just think that a 25-08 would be a great combination of the two, and a good option in a short action. It would make a neat deer/varmint caliber.
PS, I would like the .260 too, but it is almost never chambered in production guns.
Sam1911
Moderator Emeritus
Yeah. I EXACTLY see your point!
I was going to post something to that effect earlier today. You have to imagine the gun guys in the Remington product development department (or whatever it might be called) looking over the vast list of cartridges and then looking at the pathetic 5-cartridge list of what they produce and just shaking their heads.How in the world is it that Remington, Winchester, Marlin, Savage/Stevens, FN now, Browning, etc., etc., etc., can sell '?' MILLION new .30-'06s, .270s, and .243s? I mean doesn't every man, woman, and child have one of each by now? (Actually...no...I don't.) And aren't there 4 more in each caliber collecting dust on the dealers' "USED" racks for each grain of sand on the beach?
I'm not ranting, exactly. I don't much CARE what folks choose to buy as long as we get more gun in the hands of more shooters. But I've long since decided that I could shoot for LIFETIMES more without ever even being tempted to buy another standard catalog rifle from any of the major manufacturers. Anything I'd care enough to go buy new would have to be interesting -- which seems to mean that they simply won't make it. And anything "run-of-the-mill" I might want to play with, I could have my pick of probably 50 in an afternoon of scouring the local used racks.
Strange world.
Maverick223
Member
I feel the same way (though I plan to buy a few more factory rifles), the refuse to make the good stuff (like 6x45mm/6mm-223, 6mmSAW, .260Rem., 6.5x55mmSwede, .280Rem., .35Whelen, 9.3x64Brenneke, et al)...if it isn't .223, .243, .270, .308, .30-06 they don't want to build it. I protest!
Yes, Sam, you do see my point.
It sure would be refreshing if some progressive thinking gunmaker would fly contrary to the bean counters and offer some unique chamberings in sporting rifle configurations.
I sure would be tempted to get the object of this post, others that blow my hair back are the 6.5-.284, 6.5-06, 6.5 WSM, .280AI.
Guess we just have to bypass the boring big names and get them custom made.
Do I see a switch barrel Savage project in my future?
It sure would be refreshing if some progressive thinking gunmaker would fly contrary to the bean counters and offer some unique chamberings in sporting rifle configurations.
I sure would be tempted to get the object of this post, others that blow my hair back are the 6.5-.284, 6.5-06, 6.5 WSM, .280AI.
Guess we just have to bypass the boring big names and get them custom made.
Do I see a switch barrel Savage project in my future?
Maverick223
Member
Ruger is about the only one that makes any rifles with non-standard chamberings (mostly for the No. 1, but some for M-77s)...and most are limited production runs.
MCgunner
Member
If a person wants a .25-08, there's nothing keeping him from having one built and a set of dies made up for it. Should be real easy to neck up .243 brass for it or .260 brass down for it. I mean, if you think it is just the bee's knees.
I have no problem feeding my .257. I can neck 7x57 brass, but I prefer the Winchester +P brass. I push a 100 grain Game King bullet to 3150 fps and it groups 3/4 MOA. It'll push the Hornady 117 Interlock to 3050 fps and group it 1 MOA.
I won a .25-06 about a dozen years ago as a door prize at a local gun show. It was a nice looking BDL Remington. I had the hots for a .308 in a M7 Stainless at the time, found one, made a trade. I didn't feel I needed another .25. Nice gun, but then so is that little M7. I love that thing and the original .308 case ain't a shabby caliber. Why would I want it in .260 or .25-08? I can do anything out to 400 yards with that .308 that I need to get done. At the time, too, there was lots of milsurp brass available in the caliber. I sorta wish I'd bought more of that brass. That brass is thick and I think if you were to neck it to .260, for sure .257", you'd probably have to ream the neck. Works great in .308, though, and fills in my calibers between the .257 Roberts and my 7mm Rem Mag. If I hunted BIG, big game, I might add a .338, but I think I've got about everything I need there considering what I'll ever be able to afford to hunt.
I have no problem feeding my .257. I can neck 7x57 brass, but I prefer the Winchester +P brass. I push a 100 grain Game King bullet to 3150 fps and it groups 3/4 MOA. It'll push the Hornady 117 Interlock to 3050 fps and group it 1 MOA.
I won a .25-06 about a dozen years ago as a door prize at a local gun show. It was a nice looking BDL Remington. I had the hots for a .308 in a M7 Stainless at the time, found one, made a trade. I didn't feel I needed another .25. Nice gun, but then so is that little M7. I love that thing and the original .308 case ain't a shabby caliber. Why would I want it in .260 or .25-08? I can do anything out to 400 yards with that .308 that I need to get done. At the time, too, there was lots of milsurp brass available in the caliber. I sorta wish I'd bought more of that brass. That brass is thick and I think if you were to neck it to .260, for sure .257", you'd probably have to ream the neck. Works great in .308, though, and fills in my calibers between the .257 Roberts and my 7mm Rem Mag. If I hunted BIG, big game, I might add a .338, but I think I've got about everything I need there considering what I'll ever be able to afford to hunt.
MCgunner
Member
BTW, you can get about anything you want made in a TC Encore barrel. The Savage 110 would be a cheap way to go, too, if money is tight for a custom.
The Savage 110 would be a cheap way to go, too, if money is tight for a custom.Cooper lists just about everything you mentioned, and then some. You just can't expect Remington to build cheap production rifles in every imaginable caliber.
Mass production rifles have to focus on calibers that offer a combination of availability and performance. Most people who buy rifles are not obsessed with uncommon cartridges.
WRT Remington, you know, they have made a lot of good cartridges that didn't sell worth crap, including the .244/6mm, the .280/7mm, the .260, and even the 7mm-08, which hasn't sold nearly enough. Why should they indulge the few people with cartridge fetishes, when they have had poor luck selling these not-so-exotic rounds? It wouldn't make sense.
Uh... flatter trajectory, lower recoil.
Cooper is indeed one maker chambering "outside the box".
I don't really expect Remington to offer every imaginable caliber, but I would like for them to stand by their own introductions a little better.
MCgunner
Member
I ain't no novice and that little M7 is easy on my shoulder. I've fired 375 H&H and goose hunt with a single shot 10 gauge. If I was a girly man, I'd worry about recoil. The .308 ain't squat for recoil even in a light rifle.
As for the trajectory, the .308 is good to MY limit, 400 yards. I won't shoot farther than that. Anyway, comparing it to my 7mm Rem Mag (you consider that "flat" don't ya?), the 308 has a maximum point blank range (3") of 273 yards. Zeroed at 232 yards, it is 14" low at 400 yards. I've made shots on coyotes at near this range. The secret is a good laser range finder.
A 150 game king from the 7 mag at 3150 fps muzzle velocity (the 308 starts out at 2773) is sighted in at 250 yard zero, is 12.9" low at 400 yards. See much difference here? Now, I ran the ballistics through my own exterior ballistics program which does not calculate Max PBR, but looks like it's around 275-280 yards. Hmmm.....lots a difference there, eh? Ballistic coefficient on that bullet is .532, on the .308 (a 150 Nosler BT) is .435.
Just to toss in the .257 Roberts....100 grain game king BC=.388...mean velocity 3147 fps... zero range 250 yards .... drop at 400 yards 14.67 inches.
Are you seeing something I'm not, here? I went through all this ballistics stuff big time 30 years ago, when I originally had a Timex sinclair computer with a 16K add on memory, then got a Tandy Color 3 with 125K, big time upgrade.
I finally came to the conclusion that it was all interesting, taught me a lot, but one thing it taught me is that there just ain't a hell of a lot of difference between the "flat shooting" calibers. Sure, you compare the 7 mag to a flat nose .30-30, you can see the difference. But, you're telling me that 2" roughly of extra drop at 400 yards is a deal killer? I don't think so. The main deal killer for me is the energy on target at 400 yards between the above 3 calibers. To me, that's what makes the 7 mag the better elk gun, not the trajectory. At 400 yards, the .308 is putting down 1357 ft lbs. The .257 is at 1064 ft lbs. The 7mm Rem Mag is pushing 1974 ft lbs. I consider 1500 ft lbs quite as low as I wanna go on an elk sized animal. For deer, any of the three, though the .257 is getting pretty weak, still packin' over 1000 ft lbs at that range. The thing I've found about the .308, though, is that it has plenty of penetration even with that nosler and I have a barnes load for it. It doesn't damage meat up close like the 7 does, and it expands readily. The .257 has never failed me, but doesn't have the meat in the bullet that the .308 does when I see a 250 lb + hog.
I just think .308 is hard to beat by any other caliber based on its case. I have no use for the .260 or .243 or whatever. Just me, though. I'm sure the .260 is quite capable, got great BCs and SDs goin' for it, but I'll keep my .308.
wyohome
Member
WYcoyote is a little, bitty, dainty feller.
MCgunner
Member
Mmmm, cub, you're sayin'? I think I get it, now.
I think I get it, now.
Maverick223
Member
I am, you're are missing the important factor...the wind. You can always factor in the unchanging (not really, but for hunting it essentially is) elevation, even with a punkin' chunker like the .45-70Govt. OTOH the wind is ever changing (unless you only shoot/hunt on dead calm days). ...but that doesn't really help the case for the .25cals now does it?
MCgunner
Member
I calculate wind drift at 10 mph, but wasn't discussing that in a debate about "flat trajectory". Anyway, if it's a windy day, I'll keep it to 300 or less. Wind is something I don't want to count on my ability to dope when I might wound a critter. 400 yards is my "good conditions" limit. I can shoot up hill and down hill, too, but I'd prefer to keep the ranges shorter for that, too, in case I make a little error in my math as I don't carry a calculator with me nor a protractor of some kind to measure angle, and don't yet own one of those fancy range finders that calculate that for you. All these factors are why I have a self imposed range limit and why I say the .308 is flat enough.
I only have 300 yards range I can practice on and I have to back up and cheat when no one else is at the range to do that, shoot off the hood of my car or something. 200 yards is all our range actually goes, but I can get 300 if I back up to the gate, done that before. But, really, the hunting I'm doing now, 150 yards is about all I can see. I'll get back out to New Mexico again, some day, before I die or get too old to mess with it, I hope.
All these factors are why I have a self imposed range limit and why I say the .308 is flat enough. I only have 300 yards range I can practice on and I have to back up and cheat when no one else is at the range to do that, shoot off the hood of my car or something. 200 yards is all our range actually goes, but I can get 300 if I back up to the gate, done that before. But, really, the hunting I'm doing now, 150 yards is about all I can see. I'll get back out to New Mexico again, some day, before I die or get too old to mess with it, I hope.
Last edited:
mljdeckard
Member
I agree, I would rather find an AR-10 upper in .257 Roberts.
MCgunner
Member
Mmm, dang, that might get me interested in ARs after all these years.....or not.
- Status
