Why are some cartriges shunned for LR rifles

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R.W.Dale

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Or more specifically why are .223 22-250 243 and 308 the ONLY games in town for factory heavy barreled target rifles. Why in the world are excellent long range rounds such as the 7mm-08 and 260 rem largely relegated to compact rifles. Or even the outstanding 30-06 or 270 either of which can do miraculous at silly long ranges. Heck even a heavy barreled 6.5x55 could kick butt and take names with the best of em.

and don't give me that inherent accuracy garbage:D that's as big a myth as "knockdown power"
 
Because they sell far more varminting guns than long range competition guns. The .223, .22-250 and .243 are all popular varmint rounds; I'm sure the .308 is offered because it also fits in a short action. Most serious long range shooters tend to build their own guns anyway, so there just isn't enough market to support large scale production.
 
Because they are marketed to hunters, or in 308's case, the LEO/mil crowd, who are mostly locked into 308 for legacy reasons.

Heck, forget caliber, a 22-250 shooting some of the 75-90gr VLD style bullets would be a much better LR performer than any bullet you can shoot in 1:12 or 1:14 (the most common factory twists for this caliber).

-z
 
Zak , I believe you have a very nice rig in 260, and it has better terminal/long range ballistics than the 308, does it not?
 
260 has way better performance for wind drift, drop, and recoil than 308. Terminal performance (for cartridges of the same "class") is mostly a function of the particular bullet you choose, these days-- providing of course that you hit the intended target. ;)
 
I dunno, I've seen some pretty darned nice LR guns in 300 winmag. Heavy barrel guns. My tikka's a heavy barrel (from the factory) in 300WM. It's sub MOA, but I've never played with it beyond 300 yards. I'd expect though, that if I could do my part, it'd do its part.
 
and don't give me that inherent accuracy garbage

It's market driven. A fad catches on, posibly due to good results in
competition. This creates demand. Rifles, accessories, reloading brass
and bullets etc. are made available. The average person enters the
market for that cal. The cycle continues. Meanwhile the serious
LR competitors are out there experimenting with new stuff and using
wildcats. One of those will eventually create a new fad.

The good stuff hangs in and the marginal fades.

Military engineering, familiarity and availability have a big impact also
as in the .223, the .308 and cousin .243. The last two offshoots of the
.30 06.
 
Why do you think they are shunned? Factory match guns are not a big market and we are doing well that there are as many caliber choices as there are. Serious target shooters don't buy their rifles at Gander Mountain and they use a number of uncommon calibers.

The .260 is a fine short action cartridge that shoots alongside the 6.5x55. Both are in use.

The venerable (Just had to say it, any magazine article would.) .30-06 is kind of a neither-fish-nor-fowl cartridge these days. All the standard velocity .30 cal focus is on .308 because it is GI; and if you want more case volume/velocity, you will likely end up with a magnum. Bullet choice for .270 is limited, as it is for .25 cal; the target shooting world just kind of passed them by long ago.

But there are all manner of wildcat and proprietary chambers in target rifles.
Ever see a 7mm x .270 WSM? I have. Or a 7mm WSM A.I.? That, too. Volume differences from regular 7mm WSM are tiny, one a little smaller, one a little larger, but their owners must have thought they were getting some advantage. I know their rifles shoot darned well.

The world of 6 and 6.5 mm cartridges is just bewildering, and wildcatting is alive and well. I saw a 6x6.5x47 Lapua before I saw the parent 6.5. One guy said the best thing about the new, newer, newest 6.5 Creedmoor is that it looks like a good basic case to make 6mm XC out of.
 
I've often wondered why no one makes a 22-250 in a faster twist like 1:9 or 1:7. There are some outstanding high BC heavy 224 bullets available that cry out for a fast twist barrel.
 
And why are they introducing rifles such as the Etronix and M710 that no one in their right mind would buy? Clearly, the powers that be in many of the firearms manufacturers are clueless as to what the buying public wants. So, they are conservative in many of their offerings (such as what calibers they offer with heavy barrels), and really off the wall in some of their new offerings. Although I would never buy a Savage, I do give them credit for being much more tuned in to what the buying public wants.

Don
 
"I've often wondered why no one makes a 22-250 in a faster twist like 1:9 or 1:7. There are some outstanding high BC heavy 224 bullets available that cry out for a fast twist barrel.

But there is no ammunition that cries out for a fast twist barrel. The factories are not going to make guns for handloads. There would have to be a market study that showed both a gunmaker and an ammunition company that such a combination would sell enough stuff to make it worth their while to tool up.
 
guntech, i have a 220 swift that i'm planning to get rebarreled next year so i can shoot 90 grainers out of it

i don't expect any factory would ever sell such a thing, but the concept is good enough for me to try it on my own


And why are they introducing rifles such as the Etronix and M710 that no one in their right mind would buy?

there you go again! :)

i have two etronx (incl the aforementioned swift). I just shot a 3-shot, 3-inch group at 900 yrds yesterday with it. (posted a picture in my 511 HRT watch thread) there's nothing at all wrong with that gun.
 
Or more specifically why are .223 22-250 243 and 308 the ONLY games in town for factory heavy barreled target rifles. Why in the world are excellent long range rounds such as the 7mm-08 and 260 rem largely relegated to compact rifles. Or even the outstanding 30-06 or 270 either of which can do miraculous at silly long ranges. Heck even a heavy barreled 6.5x55 could kick butt and take names with the best of em.

and don't give me that inherent accuracy garbage that's as big a myth as "knockdown power"


Three things: Ballistics, bullets, recoil.

In my little patch of the woods, the 1000 yard game has gone to cartridges such as 6.5-284, 6.5-08, (260 Rem) and a whole bunch of 6mm and 6.5 mm wildcats.

For a couple of decades, if you were shooting service rifle class, you shot 30 caliber. Service rifles are either 30-06, 308, or now, .223. There are a bunch of long range service rifle only competitions at the National Matches. Palma is shot with a 308 Winchester, which evens out worldwide competitions. The military no longer supports civilian shooting programs, so without the free brass and cheap ammo, people are inclined to experiment with non military cartridges.

30 caliber rifles are not the ultimate in long range shooting. They kick hard. The difference on paper between a little flinch and no flinch is observable. I have shot a 30-06, just for fun, for years. At 1000 yards it is not competitive to the sub calibers, and it kicks with the 190’s and 200 grain bullets. I know a few who have tried 300 Win Mags and after getting stomped to death they trade the rifle to some other unsuspecting wide eyed newbie. The ballistics of even 200 grain bullets in a 308 or 30-06 are vastly inferior to a 6.5mm.

So why not a .270? . It kicks harder than a 6.5-08. It is an overbore cartridge, barrel life would not provide any advantage, probably wears faster than any 6.5 mm. And don’t forget match bullets. You can’t compete without the best match bullets. That’s why the 6.5 calibers languished for so long, the only good consistent match bullets for years were in 30 caliber. For a few years the 7mm-08 caught on and a couple of National Championships were won with the 168 SMK. The wana bees used it, but then Sierra changed the ballistic coefficient to a worse number and people started dumping it. When good bullets started coming out in 6.5 the market walked away from 7mm’s. .

The 243 is a rich man’s caliber. The barrel burns out very quickly. And that is a problem for all shooters, you want to arrive at the Nationals with a barrel at its peak, not with a barrel that is just about to fall off that peak. With the 6.5 calibers, you can get maybe 500 rounds more accuracy life.

As for .223 or 22-250, only service rifle shooters use the .223 beyond 600 yards. The scores are humbling, a .223 just floats and gets blown all over the place. Never seen anyone using a 22-250.
 
I've often wondered why no one makes a 22-250 in a faster twist like 1:9 or 1:7.

Savage makes one. If Remington bought Savage, and re-badged the Savage as a Remington, they'd sell a ton. See, it's got a lot to do with marketing.
 
i have two etronx (incl the aforementioned swift). I just shot a 3-shot, 3-inch group at 900 yrds yesterday with it. (posted a picture in my 511 HRT watch thread) there's nothing at all wrong with that gun.

taliv,

Good luck buying ammo/primers for it in a couple years. My comment was not to impugn the accuracy of the rifle, just the wisdom of creating a rifle that nobody wanted.

Don
 
Good luck buying ammo/primers for it in a couple years. My comment was not to impugn the accuracy of the rifle, just the wisdom of creating a rifle that nobody wanted.

Obviously someone wants it, even if it's not you. If Remington decides to completely discontinue etronx ammo and primers, it shouldn't be a big deal to stock up now. I'm honestly happy just to see firearms companies trying out new technologies once in a while, even if the market demand doesn't seem very lucrative.

I honestly wouldn't be very surprised if the electronic ignition concept takes off in a much bigger way once Remington's patents expire.
 
Great. Now I have to go look up etronx. And I'm just waiting on a barrel nut so I can put my 6.5X47 Lapua barrel on my new long range gun.
 
my understanding is that rem has been planning to discontinue the ammo for quite some time, but continue to make primers.

my current supply of primers is likely to last 2 or 3 barrels, and 4-5 years. given I only paid $500 for a complete rifle, I think it was a solid investment. if I can't get primers in 5 years, no big deal. nothing lasts forever.
 
Obviously someone wants it, even if it's not you. If Remington decides to completely discontinue etronx ammo and primers, it shouldn't be a big deal to stock up now. I'm honestly happy just to see firearms companies trying out new technologies once in a while, even if the market demand doesn't seem very lucrative.

JesseL,

Don't ever think of becoming a businessman, if you think that the role of a business is to disregard market demand, and introduce trendy new technologies. Remington lost their shirt on that deal. If I was a stockholder, I'd be pissed. Imagine the amount of R&D and marketing that went into that rifle, all to sell the rifle to taliv and 3 other guys.;) Now, Savage, on the other hand, seems to have it's finger on the pulse of what the shooting public wants. And guess who's losing market share as a result of Savage's savvy marketing decisions?

Don
 
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