Just curious, at what point do the moderators lock a thread around here? This thread has obviously run its course. Seems to me like rational thought took a back seat to personalities and emotions a couple of pages ago. To continue in this mode really is detracting from the overall appeal of the entire Web site.
25 ways a revolver beats a semi auto
- Thread starter Rogelio
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"Rational" thoughts like these?
Let me state my "qualifications" to speak on this topic. I only own semi-autos at the moment and that moment has lasted over 15 years now. The last revolver I owned was an inherited Python I traded to my brother for yet another 1911. That revolver gave me the bug though, and I am finally getting around to buying a Ruger GP-100 in February. I have owned and shot for fun, and in competition, over 30 different autopistols ranging from .22lr to .45ACP. I was a reserve deputy for four and one half years before the arrival of my first born prompted my wife to make me give up my dalliance with law enforcement.
That said, I shouldn't need to remind you that ISPC and IDPA are games and they are played as such. I'd be hard pressed to find a shooting discipline more divorced from the reality of the street than ISPC. IDPA isn't all that much better.
ISPC generally features race guns which are about as close to stock as NASCAR teams are to the showrooms of Ford and GM. IDPA features at worst lightly customized pistols, but every IDPA stage I have ever participated in or watched disinterestedly is about as contrived as the average ISPC stage.
The most artificial aspect of these shooting games is the emphasis on reloading, tactical or otherwise. This is not a bad skill to have, but it is a bad one by which to judge autos against wheelguns. The simple fact of the matter is that gunfights in the real civilian world, as opposed to in combat zones, generally are not running gun battles with one facing multiple assailants and requiring reloads. In the United States alone, there are probably police shoots requiring reloads fewer times than you have fingers on an annual basis. For CCWers or home defenders, the chances of a reload are probably bordering on infintesimal.
There is a place for the revolver in my arsenal. As a weapon, the revolver is about as much a dinosaur as my 1911s are, which is to say that revos aren't dinosaurs at all.
Merely because the tastes of the public and the police have shifted away from revolvers on the basis of mental misperceptions about their actual uses of force, doesn't make the revolver a less competent weapon than the auto. All the disfavor the revolver faces in most police applications is the result of fevered imaginations on the part of bureaucrats rather than "combat failures."
One thing I have noted over the years: Cops sure miss a lot more than they used to. They also launch rounds numbering in the dozens in several notable encounters without hitting any perpetrators. The tranistion from revolver to high capacity autopistol in police circles has not been a tale of uniform success.
The cop I respect most carries a 4" S&W 686+ on duty. That officer is my brother. He'd have a hearty laugh at this thread as he is widely regarded as one of the best shots in his department as well as being one of the fastest into action when they are competing against one another. He has always told me that if he needs a reload, he will be sure to be doing it behind the best cover available, just as he would using an auto.
Let me state my "qualifications" to speak on this topic. I only own semi-autos at the moment and that moment has lasted over 15 years now. The last revolver I owned was an inherited Python I traded to my brother for yet another 1911. That revolver gave me the bug though, and I am finally getting around to buying a Ruger GP-100 in February. I have owned and shot for fun, and in competition, over 30 different autopistols ranging from .22lr to .45ACP. I was a reserve deputy for four and one half years before the arrival of my first born prompted my wife to make me give up my dalliance with law enforcement.
That said, I shouldn't need to remind you that ISPC and IDPA are games and they are played as such. I'd be hard pressed to find a shooting discipline more divorced from the reality of the street than ISPC. IDPA isn't all that much better.
ISPC generally features race guns which are about as close to stock as NASCAR teams are to the showrooms of Ford and GM. IDPA features at worst lightly customized pistols, but every IDPA stage I have ever participated in or watched disinterestedly is about as contrived as the average ISPC stage.
The most artificial aspect of these shooting games is the emphasis on reloading, tactical or otherwise. This is not a bad skill to have, but it is a bad one by which to judge autos against wheelguns. The simple fact of the matter is that gunfights in the real civilian world, as opposed to in combat zones, generally are not running gun battles with one facing multiple assailants and requiring reloads. In the United States alone, there are probably police shoots requiring reloads fewer times than you have fingers on an annual basis. For CCWers or home defenders, the chances of a reload are probably bordering on infintesimal.
There is a place for the revolver in my arsenal. As a weapon, the revolver is about as much a dinosaur as my 1911s are, which is to say that revos aren't dinosaurs at all.
Merely because the tastes of the public and the police have shifted away from revolvers on the basis of mental misperceptions about their actual uses of force, doesn't make the revolver a less competent weapon than the auto. All the disfavor the revolver faces in most police applications is the result of fevered imaginations on the part of bureaucrats rather than "combat failures."
One thing I have noted over the years: Cops sure miss a lot more than they used to. They also launch rounds numbering in the dozens in several notable encounters without hitting any perpetrators. The tranistion from revolver to high capacity autopistol in police circles has not been a tale of uniform success.
The cop I respect most carries a 4" S&W 686+ on duty. That officer is my brother. He'd have a hearty laugh at this thread as he is widely regarded as one of the best shots in his department as well as being one of the fastest into action when they are competing against one another. He has always told me that if he needs a reload, he will be sure to be doing it behind the best cover available, just as he would using an auto.
I think a revolver just looks better, with its round lines. Most autos are very square.
Also, couldnt keeping loaded speed loaders around be considered the same as keeping loaded magazines around, if so, then the magazine argument is moot.
Also, couldnt keeping loaded speed loaders around be considered the same as keeping loaded magazines around, if so, then the magazine argument is moot.
Also, couldnt keeping loaded speed loaders around be considered the same as keeping loaded magazines around, if so, then the magazine argument is moot.
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True. I have 10 moon clips for my 610 that I have loaded for the times I chose to plink with that gun.
The real advantages of revolvers in my opinion is in the pocket gun field and in the outdoor woods gun field. For woods gun I mean somthing used as a back up bear protection weapon. A 4 inch 629 in 44 mag is a good weapon. If you go less than the 44 the auto has the advantage. As the 10mm in the Glock 20 has more power than a 357 revolver. And a 41 mag is on the same frame as a 44 mag usually so why bother.
Pat
END
True. I have 10 moon clips for my 610 that I have loaded for the times I chose to plink with that gun.
The real advantages of revolvers in my opinion is in the pocket gun field and in the outdoor woods gun field. For woods gun I mean somthing used as a back up bear protection weapon. A 4 inch 629 in 44 mag is a good weapon. If you go less than the 44 the auto has the advantage. As the 10mm in the Glock 20 has more power than a 357 revolver. And a 41 mag is on the same frame as a 44 mag usually so why bother.
Pat
La Pistoletta
Member
But isn't having magazines loaded for prolonged periods of time bad for the magazine spring?
BluesBear
member
Good points, Boats.
No it doesn't.
I've provided this link before. We've had this discussion before. The 10mm is roughly equal in ability. It does not have "more power" by anyone's yardstick. Using bullets of equal weight, the .357 retains a slight advantage in both energy and penetration. Using bullets of equal sectional density, the .357 retains a larger advantage in energy. The differences aren't dramatic, but they exist.
As mentioned before, for both calibers, there are loaders like Double Tap and Buffalo Bore who push the cartridges to their limits and can, in some cases, best these numbers. The handloader has a similar advantage. However, the relational end result is the same.
This is a myth that needs to die. The 10mm is a fine round. If you want .357-level power in an auto, it's the way to go. It is not, however, a "more powerful" and, since the topic is open, it does not come anywhere close to a real, full-pressure .41 Magnum loading (which also has its place next to the .44 Magnum, especially if your platform of choice is an N-frame and you actually like shooting full-power loads on a regular basis).
TrapperReady
Member
- Joined
- Jan 29, 2003
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- 2,732
La Pistoletta - The question of springs degrading when kept under pressure is nearly as oft debated as 9mm vs. 45 or AR vs. AK. Personally, based on my own experience and what I've read, I'm not concerned about keeping mags loaded.
If you check here and at The Firing Line, you're likely to find more about this than you would care to read.
If you check here and at The Firing Line, you're likely to find more about this than you would care to read.
but what about your M610 you mentioned just a few sentences earlier in the post. That would put the Glock 20 on par with the M610 in power levels
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Your right. I sold the 20 because I had no need for it. I purchased the 610 for a few reasons. 1 was so I would have a revolver to compete in revolver only competitions and the second was so I could use all the free 40 brass I have access too. My department shoots Glock 21''s. But the Troopers also use our range and they shoot 40sw. If I were going to do it again I would have bought a 625 in 45 acp.
Pat
END
Your right. I sold the 20 because I had no need for it. I purchased the 610 for a few reasons. 1 was so I would have a revolver to compete in revolver only competitions and the second was so I could use all the free 40 brass I have access too. My department shoots Glock 21''s. But the Troopers also use our range and they shoot 40sw. If I were going to do it again I would have bought a 625 in 45 acp.
Pat
Boats:
My rational statement is based upon thousands of competive shooters who collectively put millions of rounds down range every year. Your inability to comprehend what I said comes as no suprise.
FWIW, the newest IPSC divisions, L10 and Production have a tremendous amount of shooters who use guns suitable for carry. I shoot Production with a stock CZ75. I shoot revolver division with a bone freaking stock 610 revolver. I play in both Limited and L10 with a Les Baer PII just as it came out of the box.
My point is pretty simple. In general, when shooting fast and accurately at multiple targets the semi-auto just works better. By comparison (for the purpose of shooting fast and accurately) the revolver has become a dinosaur. In keeping with the spirit of the thread I must conclude by stating:
My rational statement is based upon thousands of competive shooters who collectively put millions of rounds down range every year. Your inability to comprehend what I said comes as no suprise.
FWIW, the newest IPSC divisions, L10 and Production have a tremendous amount of shooters who use guns suitable for carry. I shoot Production with a stock CZ75. I shoot revolver division with a bone freaking stock 610 revolver. I play in both Limited and L10 with a Les Baer PII just as it came out of the box.
My point is pretty simple. In general, when shooting fast and accurately at multiple targets the semi-auto just works better. By comparison (for the purpose of shooting fast and accurately) the revolver has become a dinosaur. In keeping with the spirit of the thread I must conclude by stating:
Hey Ankeny, no harm no foul.
I have seen a lot of bad auto shooters in my day. They might be faster, but that ain't always a positive.
My point is that ISPC and IDPA are still games, no matter how much lead is thrown down range. Someone who takes the time to master a DA revolver is pointedly not using a dinosaur.
I have seen a lot of bad auto shooters in my day. They might be faster, but that ain't always a positive.
My point is that ISPC and IDPA are still games, no matter how much lead is thrown down range. Someone who takes the time to master a DA revolver is pointedly not using a dinosaur.
BluesBear
member
Once again you are correct Boats, ISPC and IDPA are games.
Which is why they call them shooting sports.
Which is why they call them shooting sports.
Well if someone sucks at a game they will likely suck on the street. ISPC was founded to give people a way to train more realistic way so they could be ready for the street. The skills you aquire in the games help you live in real life.
Pat
Pat
Not necessarily. The corollary (if you're good at a game, you'll be good "on the street") is most definitely not true. Being good in combat is a totally a different thing from being good in a simulator. The best thing you can say about IPSC and IDPA is they probably won't hurt, and they might help. Practice is a good thing, but you can't cry "no fair" or go looking for range officer "on the street." It's sort of like a person can go to college and get degree, but it doesn't mean he can spell, punctuate or write or coherent report, does it?
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La Pistoletta
Member
Or get a job.
The organized games also limits itself to basically a frontal attack. The street attack could come from anywhere in a 360 degree circle and the target may not just quit after being hit.
While the games may help, there are too many variables that the street attack could throw in to compound the problem.
Seek cover, plan your escape. The longer you stay in the battle the higher your odds of losing increases. In the games you advance to the next problem, but in the street you should retreat from them. You win when you get out alive, the opponent don't necessarily have to die nor do you have to fire a shot.
While the games may help, there are too many variables that the street attack could throw in to compound the problem.
Seek cover, plan your escape. The longer you stay in the battle the higher your odds of losing increases. In the games you advance to the next problem, but in the street you should retreat from them. You win when you get out alive, the opponent don't necessarily have to die nor do you have to fire a shot.
La Pistoletta
Member
I wonder when they're going to implement those super carbon strains or whatever stuff into bulletproof vests. Now that's going to be bulletproof for real. Light and so strong they're considering making an elevator to space built with it (seriously).
Wow!!
I just never imagined that this topic could be of such passionate interest! I oen and carry both semi autos and revolvers (at the same time) and love them both just as much!!
Well, thanks a lot for the 25 resons and for every comment!!
You guys are the greatest....
By the way....Revo's and semi's RULE!!!!!GUNS rule!!
I just never imagined that this topic could be of such passionate interest! I oen and carry both semi autos and revolvers (at the same time) and love them both just as much!!
Well, thanks a lot for the 25 resons and for every comment!!
You guys are the greatest....
By the way....Revo's and semi's RULE!!!!!GUNS rule!!
BluesBear
member
SNIP
Well if someone sucks at a game they will likely suck on the street.
END
Using that logic one would think Donald Trump would be the world Monopoly™©®_ champion.
Thinking that the street is a game is Mall Ninja thinking.
Life or death isn't a game, it's a
very
serious
business.
There are no winners and no losers, only survivors and casualties.
Real life doesn't allow rematches or do-overs.
ISPC and IDPA as well as PPC and Bowling with Bullets are very good for training. For that matter CAS can be pretty good training too.
But everyone participating in shooting sports KNOWS they'll be going home when it's over.
No one is invincible. Even Superman knew there was a possibility of someone showing up with some Kryptonite.
Train hard, train often, train well and train smart. But never, ever forget that real life is not a game. To think that it is is foolhardy at best.
Well if someone sucks at a game they will likely suck on the street.
END
Using that logic one would think Donald Trump would be the world Monopoly™©®_ champion.
Thinking that the street is a game is Mall Ninja thinking.
Life or death isn't a game, it's a
very
serious
business.
There are no winners and no losers, only survivors and casualties.
Real life doesn't allow rematches or do-overs.
ISPC and IDPA as well as PPC and Bowling with Bullets are very good for training. For that matter CAS can be pretty good training too.
But everyone participating in shooting sports KNOWS they'll be going home when it's over.
No one is invincible. Even Superman knew there was a possibility of someone showing up with some Kryptonite.
Train hard, train often, train well and train smart. But never, ever forget that real life is not a game. To think that it is is foolhardy at best.
WheelMan
Member
I think we all get it.
But you can't deny that the basic skill set developed for these games are usefull in actual combat (quick reloads, quick shooting and just general gun handling). It's just another form of training.
But you can't deny that the basic skill set developed for these games are usefull in actual combat (quick reloads, quick shooting and just general gun handling). It's just another form of training.
WheelMan
Member
I'll agree with that too.
Even though the thread drifted a bunch, it looks like most of us can finally agree on something, IPSC and IDPA are games. I suppose those two games can teach some pretty important gunhandling skills, but without tactics, situational awareness, and a bit of a "warrior" mentality, a person's "gunfighting" skill set is incomplete.
FWIW, I really do love revolvers and I always have. I shoot them because I think they rock. What I meant to say earlier is I don't have them in my personal defense "arsenal" because I have some really good semi-autos that I carry instead. Still, I wouldn't feel under-gunned packing a 2.5 inch 19 like I did in the old days.
There is still a place in my "fun gun" arsenal for wheelguns though and there always will be. I don't need to have a list of 25 ways a revolver is beeter than an auto because there is only one real reason I shoot them...wheelguns rock.
FWIW, I really do love revolvers and I always have. I shoot them because I think they rock. What I meant to say earlier is I don't have them in my personal defense "arsenal" because I have some really good semi-autos that I carry instead. Still, I wouldn't feel under-gunned packing a 2.5 inch 19 like I did in the old days.
There is still a place in my "fun gun" arsenal for wheelguns though and there always will be. I don't need to have a list of 25 ways a revolver is beeter than an auto because there is only one real reason I shoot them...wheelguns rock.
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