25 yards - 28 shots - 1 hit...

[TheeBadOne]

Quartus

TBO, it appears from your many posts that ALL criticism of LEOs or their actions is "bashing" in your book.

Nope. Your words, not mine sir.

By constantly defending the indefensible

Not only your words, but your qualification. Might as well shout "Resistance is futile" (my words added).

True, this is a stereotype..........but...

Ah, what's good for the goose isn't good for the gander.

If we give LEOs a pass on bad behaviour, we contribute to this country degnerating into a police state.

Is the topic of this thread and example of "Bad Behavior"? I have no problem taking issue with bad actions of LEO's much less bad LEO's period. My issue is the broad brush. To steal a page from your book; "If we paint LEOs with a broad brush, we contribute to this county degnerating into a abysmal state".

Oh, I haven't walked in their shoes?

No you haven't. Not that this has any bearing on the subject(s) at hand, but watching E.R. does not qualify one to do open heart surgery, and watching your wife give birth to a child does not make you know what "it feels like". Does this eliminate you from an opinion or judgement? Certainly not. All it does is eliminate "I know what it's like".

But you certainly convey that message.

Bias has a way of reshaping the words on the screen to fit ones own world view, without concious awareness of it. It is not my fault if everything I type you read 'your' way. In the threads where there was clear misconduct by an officer you never saw me defend their actions. In threads where info is vague I point that out. When flaming pops it's head up I'm not afraid to point that out. It has no place in discussions with grown ups. If you are to criticize me harshly as a defender of cops, say it this way. "If you're going to flame them, you'd better be right". Know this, that is exactly the way I feel about all people. If you remember the thread about the man who shot the crazy home intruder with his handgun then beat him with his unloaded shotgun, I defended him against those who were becoming harsh on him. I attack the arguement (or name calling) of a poster, not them. Many of the questions I post are meant to encourge thinking outside the box (news article), to see the big picture, to think. I do not post to fight nor to insult. The mods on this board do an excellent job of reinging in inappropriate conduct while allowing lively discourse.

All the best

 

[280PLUS]

afterthought,,,

If ever you should find yourself surrounded by the police,

all pointing their weapons at you,

fingers on their respective triggers,

it would probably be in your best interest to try and calm them down a little,

i mean, even though 27 missed,,,one didn't...

the only qualification i have for saying that is watching a couple of cops who had an armed (.357) subject at gunpoint

they were scared, you could hear it in their vioices, you could see it in the way their guns were shaking,,,

why can't people understand that? :banghead:

they're human,,,

i don't blame them one bit either, i would be and you would be too

i was taking cover kids, thats where i was, this was before i was armed and right on my doorstep,

one officer was telling him to get on the ground and the other was telling him to freeze and put his hands in the air...

now theres a paradox...

somehow, nobody got shot, but the thought of those shaky fingers on those shaky guns has never left me.

if an officer is dishonest thats one thing, but if he fails to act "correctly" (including shooting straight) in situations of extreme duress, thats another,

it's just because he and she are human

can we try to remember that?

 

[Sarge111]

Good point...

"it's just because he and she are human

can we try to remember that?"

That's exactly why we TRAIN- train frequently, train hard, train ugly. The whole point of training is to give us humans something to revert to under stress, besides the "OMG!" button.

Bill Jordan once said (in so many words) that the average patrolman would do just fine in a shooting scrape, so long as he just reverted to training and didn't waste time thinking about 432 1/2 possible options.

Observe. Orient Decide. Act- and if you're further than 10 feet, WATCH YOUR FRONT SIGHT.

Anybody worth shootin' at is worth hitting. Hosing the ladscape is not an acceptable performance.

 

[Quartus]

TBO, several people here have tried to tell you the same thing. It goes in one ear and... No, it doesn't even seem to get that far.


I guess you'll just continue to do your part to give the LEO community a bad name.

 

[TheeBadOne]

Quartus

TBO, several people here have tried to tell you the same thing.

And that makes everything you say correct........?

You still continue to read what you want to out of my posts. Well, I guess we'll have to agree to disagree.

All the best

 

[Cosmoline]

This is one of the main reasons the "overpenetration" concerns are a bunch of bunk. If LEO's miss with even half their shots, that means half will be flying all over the place. One round from a rifle or a few from a carbine. That's the way to do it. Handguns should never be regarded as anything more than an emergency backup weapon.

 

[Black Snowman]

I'm with Cosmoline on the rifle issue. After being on here a few weeks I decided to upgrade my home defense gun to a carbine even though my longest possible shot accross my whole property is only about 30 yards.

I feel better about having the stability and power of a long-gun over a hand-gun, especially in a stressful situation. You can shake pretty good and you won't throw of a long gun nearly as bad as a handgun.

Sounds like the tools, training, and motivation just aren't there for this group. Hopefully after this there will be some changes. They may not get the money, time, or tools they need but we can hope their motivation improves.

 

[12-34hom]

So what exactly was the reason for this article to be posted her at THR?

What was the original poster trying to gain, was it to educate us or just a cheap form of entertainment for some who frequent this board.

One might ask him or herself = How many "piss poor" shots are running around that don't work as a peace officer but; carry a gun legally CCW.

That's for all those here who live in glass houses.

12-34hom.

 

[Sarge111]

Y'all are missing the point here...

and I don't say that with any disrespect at all. Take it from somebody who's been lugging an handgun around for longer than many of you have been alive- it's a pain in the rear. But- it's what you're gonna have with you about 89% of the time when things go sour. Hence, the need to be very skilled in its use. It ain't ideal, but it's always there when you need it. You have to maintain enough skill to be able to "shoot up to the hand you are dealt". Hitting a man walking around on his hind legs at 35 yards is well within any dedicated shooters potential.

I would be the last man to suggest that you shouldn't take a rifle or shotgun if the potential for an armed encounter is KNOWN (as part of the radio dispatch) prior to arrival at the scene. Handguns are for emergencies-rifles and shotguns are for contingencies. That's why they put 'em in patrol cars.

Which brings me to the point of this reply- it completely boggles MY mind that so many cops there, and we never heard about one of them touching of a shotgun. If I missed it in the original article, feel free to correct me- but how come NOBODY had a riot gun?

 

[TheeBadOne]

12-34hom

So what exactly was the reason for this article to be posted her at THR?

What was the original poster trying to gain, was it to educate us or just a cheap form of entertainment for some who frequent this board.

It took 4 pages but finally a nice concise post wrapping it up.

 

[goon]

In all fairness, I know a Vietnam vet who told me about similar stories.
He told me that when he was on point, he would empty his M-16 at every noise he heard. When they realized that he was going to do that, they gave him a sawed off 12 gauge. He still emptied the gun at every noise he heard. He said that he accounted for several of the enemy, but that there was nothing brave about it. He was just scared, plain and simple.
I have never been shot at. The closest I have been to anything like that was fighting the OPFOR at Hoenfels.
I can't say how I would respond in the same situation, so I don't have any room to judge anyone else.

 

[Ryder]

Haven't seen it said yet but this was a no-win situation. If they had hit the guy 27 out of 28 shots they would still be taking heat.

I wouldn't jump to conclusions that they were not range trained. I think it much more probable that this is a case of "buck fever", fear, excitement, or whatever you want to call it ("seeing the elephant" works). I experienced that more than a few times when I was a young hunter and I was an excellent shot on paper. It's a very real phenomenon. I missed shots on animals that you'd swear could only be attributed to black magic on the the critters part. So I have some empathy for these poor cops.

It takes a lot of :banghead: to get but it can be achieved with enough experience. Where does one get experience in gun fighting though? Simulation training might help to teach them how to postpone the adrenaline but are cops with stone cold killer instinct a good thing? I dunno about that one.

 

[Bob F.]

I'm glad my kids weren't camping out, or (more realistically) parked in those woods. Intentional misses are not acceptable! Better to not shoot at all. " The only thing worse than a miss is a slow miss!"
In our Tac Pistol class (Level II) with mepro nite sites, buff colored targets, no light other than ambient sky, out in the boonies on a cloudy night, most of us actually shot better than in daylight, and we did pretty darn well in daylight! We had acclimated to the dark, no flashlight, campfires or anything else.
Bob

 

[Tamara]

12-34hom,

One might ask him or herself = How many "piss poor" shots are running around that don't work as a peace officer but; carry a gun legally CCW.

Oh, quite a few, let me tell you.

Believe me, I'd've commented on the piss poor shooting involved whether this was Joe Sixpack or Johnny Law. There's no excuse for being a crappy handgun shot as a CCW holder. There's even less when it's part of one's job requirements and one is held up as a role model for why "only trained people" should have access to sidearms.

TheeBadOne,

Maybe she does. Maybe she's right, but this is still speculation at best (for mulitple reasons)

Actually, TBO, one of us got all our info on this incident from a newspaper article, and one got it from talking with several KCSD deputies over the days immediately following the incident. This is, in fact, the first news article I've seen or read on the topic, as I don't watch the local news or read the paper much. I heard about it first thing next morning from a KPD officer who stopped in to pick up some ammo (we give LEO's a 10% discount.) Not long afterwards, a deputy dropped by to pick up his 1911 that had been having some work done on it, and, as he came through the door, threw up his hands and said "Don't look at me, I wasn't there, and if I had been, I sure as hell wouldn't be showing my face in here today without a bag over my head." We didn't press any deputies for names, but one allowed as how "You wouldn't know any of those guys. At least not from seeing 'em at a gun shop or the range..." (The only reason I clicked on this thread in the first place is that I wanted to double check and see if they'd released the deputies' names yet, just to make sure...)

If you remember the thread about the man who shot the crazy home intruder with his handgun then beat him with his unloaded shotgun, I defended him against those who were becoming harsh on him.

As did I. He didn't CCW, apparently; he was just one of those zillions of folks who keeps a revolver in the house "just in case" along with an unloaded trap/skeet gun. He managed to bat .600 despite being apparently untrained. He got very lucky. My problem is when someone comments on six guys, who have officially been pronounced trained and qualified, batting a combined .036(!), possibly needing some remedial instruction, they're deluged with responses of "Cop bashing!", "Walk a mile in their shoes!", et cetera.

I've choked before. I've launched 12 gutterballs at a 50-yd popper and dropped myself from third place to last place in a match. The one time I've actually pulled a trigger in anger, I missed, and only luck got me out of the situation. I never expected someone to spring to my defense on those occasions, because there was nothing to defend: I screwed up. No "walk a mile in my shoes," no "bashing," just "Gosh, I need to learn from these mistakes and get more training and practice more often."

That's the same lesson we should be drawing from this: having a gun on your hip and punching paper on a controlled range once every six months does not automatically confer competence. Cop or CCW toter, it takes more commitment than that...

 

[JohnKSa]

Tamara wrote:

quote:
-------------------------------------------
One might ask him or herself = How many "piss poor" shots are running around that don't work as a peace officer but; carry a gun legally CCW.
-------------------------------------------

Oh, quite a few, let me tell you.

Believe me, I'd've commented on the piss poor shooting involved whether this was Joe Sixpack or Johnny Law. There's no excuse for being a crappy handgun shot as a CCW holder. There's even less when it's part of one's job requirements and one is held up as a role model for why "only trained people" should have access to sidearms.

TheeBadOne,

quote:
-----------------------------------------
Maybe she does. Maybe she's right, but this is still speculation at best (for mulitple reasons)
-----------------------------------------

Actually, TBO, one of us got all our info on this incident from a newspaper article, and one got it from talking with several KCSD deputies over the days immediately following the incident. This is, in fact, the first news article I've seen or read on the topic, as I don't watch the local news or read the paper much. I heard about it first thing next morning from a KPD officer who stopped in to pick up some ammo (we give LEO's a 10% discount.) Not long afterwards, a deputy dropped by to pick up his 1911 that had been having some work done on it, and, as he came through the door, threw up his hands and said "Don't look at me, I wasn't there, and if I had been, I sure as hell wouldn't be showing my face in here today without a bag over my head." We didn't press any deputies for names, but one allowed as how "You wouldn't know any of those guys. At least not from seeing 'em at a gun shop or the range..." (The only reason I clicked on this thread in the first place is that I wanted to double check and see if they'd released the deputies' names yet, just to make sure...)

quote:
----------------------------------------
If you remember the thread about the man who shot the crazy home intruder with his handgun then beat him with his unloaded shotgun, I defended him against those who were becoming harsh on him.
----------------------------------------

As did I. He didn't CCW, apparently; he was just one of those zillions of folks who keeps a revolver in the house "just in case" along with an unloaded trap/skeet gun. He managed to bat .600 despite being apparently untrained. He got very lucky. My problem is when someone comments on six guys, who have officially been pronounced trained and qualified, batting a combined .036(!), possibly needing some remedial instruction, they're deluged with responses of "Cop bashing!", "Walk a mile in their shoes!", et cetera.

I've choked before. I've launched 12 gutterballs at a 50-yd popper and dropped myself from third place to last place in a match. The one time I've actually pulled a trigger in anger, I missed, and only luck got me out of the situation. I never expected someone to spring to my defense on those occasions, because there was nothing to defend: I screwed up. No "walk a mile in my shoes," no "bashing," just "Gosh, I need to learn from these mistakes and get more training and practice more often."

That's the same lesson we should be drawing from this: having a gun on your hip and punching paper on a controlled range once every six months does not automatically confer competence. Cop or CCW toter, it takes more commitment than that...

Ummm...

COP-HATER!!!!

TheeBadOne,

I'm coming around to your way of thinking.

I see now that it's unrealistic to expect a person to be able to effectively use the tools of their trade while under stress.

I also see that no matter what an LEO does, it should be excused by the "civilian" community because they don't understand how difficult it is to be a cop. Also, we should understand that because LEOs have dedicated their life to helping the public we should never say bad things about them.

Did I leave anything out?

John

PS. I like you, you can come and hose down my neighborhood with wild shots any day as long as you are trying to help.

PPS. I like you because you're a cop!

 

[Covey Rise]

This is actually very simple problem

Your average LEO makes around $30K, finding people that are in that income range typically do not want to take the time or training to become a prototypical good police officer, they just do enough to keep their job. Now jump up to the FBI where cops make more money, they take more pride and are professional and probably shoot a bit more.

It's the same in the business america.

 

[BluesBear]

Does anyone know what weapons, in what calibers these officers were using?

Were they department issued or officer purchased.




If we knew then we could start "bashing" the guns instead of the "piss poor shooting".

 

[New_comer]

They were using 40's. Way excessive bullet drop at 25 yards, which by this incident is about 4-5 feet.


Maybe they tried to compensate by "ballistic" shooting, aimed upwards a little but ended up over compensating , and hosed the woods instead...


They should have used the flatter shooting 9mm instead.

 

[Cellar Dweller]

Your average LEO makes around $30K, finding people that are in that income range typically do not want to take the time or training to become a prototypical good police officer, they just do enough to keep their job.

Salary is irrelevant, given that there are more than a few members here who find the money for ammo and range fees even during periods of unemployment.

Now jump up to the FBI where cops make more money, they take more pride and are professional and probably shoot a bit more.

No, they just wear suits (which AUTOMATICALLY makes you "professional"). OK, if you were to triple LEO salaries would it make them better shots? Would it make them better cops overall? Likely your "average LEO" would continue to do just enough "to get by." Salary don't make the man (or woman), neither do the clothes.

It's the same in the business america.

I assume you mean "It's the same in (the) business (world), America." No, the ones who care about their job and skills find ways to improve. The business world is full of average Joes who do enough to "just get by," the ones who get ahead despite age or race or gender or cronyism/patronage disadvantages do so because they WANT to improve themselves, and find a way even if it has to be funded from their own pocket.

 

[280PLUS]

addendum to the nam vet story,,,

that further proves the plain and simple scared point,

this guy i knew was a river rat in nam, he rode those tiny boats up and down the rivers, sitting ducks mostly,

one day while they were all moored and watching the opposite bank a cute little monkey came up and took his sandwich away from him (or whatever it was he was eating),,, he took it back, then the monkey took it back and SLAPPED HIM. well, uh,,,he shot the monkey. He said upon hearing the report of his shotgun, the entire flotilla opened up onto the opposite bank, small arms, grenade launchers, rockets.

he said they mustve expended about $50,000 in ammo in the few seconds they were firing at will. Why? they were ALL scared, the least little bit of disturbance was enough to make every one of them start squeezing their respective triggers.

meanwhile, he was trying to hide the remains of the monkey, because if they ever found out why he shot...

i'd say, once one of the officers in this episode popped off a round, the rest panicked from hearing the shot and hence, lead flying everywhere immediately afterward.

Although training is the best way to avoid situations like this, unless you are a seasoned comvbat vet who firefights on a regular basis, chances are you will react in the same manner.

none of us knows, training or not, how we will react while under fire until it happens.

and ive heard it said that the loud talking bravado ones are usually the ones to crack under fire, while the quiet ones keep a cool head and do what has to be done.

all of us, including myself, should we find ourselves in a situation as this,,,

the very first thing you should be training yourself to do is keep a cool head,,,a cool head,,,don't panic,,,just relax and do everything just as you would any other day

a cool head,,,thats #1

have i said it enough??

i'll stop now

 

[Covey Rise]

Cellar Dweller good points but think it through

Cellar

"Salary is irrelevant, given that there are more than a few members here who find the money for ammo and range fees even during periods of unemployment."

Your talking about gun fans/nuts here on the THR, not the LEO's community which has only a token few gun fans/nuts in their fraternity, one of the LEO's on the board made that point.

No, they just wear suits (which AUTOMATICALLY makes you "professional"). OK, if you were to triple LEO salaries would it make them better shots? Would it make them better cops overall? Likely your "average LEO" would continue to do just enough "to get by." Salary don't make the man (or woman), neither do the clothes.

I guess you have a beef against the FBI, because the FBI guys I know are very professional compared to our local police. And if you tripled LEO salaries you would not have the same LEO's anymore, more qualified people who care about their profesionalism would take their jobs. Your right, salary does not make the man, but the salary chooses the right man for the job. That was the orginal point I was trying to make.

I assume you mean "It's the same in (the) business (world), America." No, the ones who care about their job and skills find ways to improve. The business world is full of average Joes who do enough to "just get by," the ones who get ahead despite age or race or gender or cronyism/patronage disadvantages do so because they WANT to improve themselves, and find a way even if it has to be funded from their own pocket.

That was my point, your average LEO is just like your average business guy, just doing enough. But your motivated LEO's and Businness guys who do take time to improve their craft will not hold a 30k job, or if they do, which some do, they have self pride, but that is rare.

Enjoyed the discussion.