25 yards, standing, iron sights, a challenge?

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Welp, my baby finally came in so I took it out to the range to try the 25 yards standing position we've been talking about in here.

Hehe, I did have one 10 shot group that was within 2", except one of the 10 was 5" out. Always gotta be one flyer, right?

All in all, considering it was my first time shooting standing, and I haven't shot since high school (mid-90's) over a decade ago, I thought I did alright!

It's a pity the indoor range doesn't allow prone or for me to bring in something to rest the rifle on. Being indoors has the advantage of removing wind from the equation, and would make it perfect for trying different kinds of ammo out in the rifle. Our outdoor ranges here are up in the mountains and it can get really, really windy.

Cameron

Cameron
 
Hey Zeede, Just out of curiosity, what part of the country are you in? I'm in a mountainous area too and wind can be a factor in the Southern Appalachians.

Hehe, I did have one 10 shot group that was within 2", except one of the 10 was 5" out. Always gotta be one flyer, right?

I'd say that's doing real good. How many groups did you shoot? All at 25yds? Yeah, gotta have one flyer. What was your widest group? And how many types of ammo did you try?
 
Oops, I forgot to put my location into my Profile. It should be displaying properly now. Yep, I'm from California, which figures. After I get used to the CZ I want a semi-auto in .223 for medium distance target shooting and (hopefully never) home defense. I don't like the Ruger, and I don't want an AR-15 clone. I'm not convinced of the long-term reliability of Kel-Tec, so I'm basically crossing my fingers for that Beretta RX4.


I shot some groups of five shots first to warm up (holy moly my shots were terrible) then I finished up with five targets, 10 shots each. I only have one 5-shot mag so I had to reload and then shoot again. All shots were done at 25 yards, and my widest group was probably 6". I only used Remington Thunderbolts.

I don't have anywhere indoors I can properly benchrest so even though I bought five or six kinds of ammo I may just shoot something bulk like American Eagle or Federal for now.

Added: There is an indoor place that lets me go prone, but they only go out to 50'. Benchrest at 50' I'd imagine my data would be useless. Most if not all of the ammo types should shoot one ragged hole.

Cameron
 
Fundamentals!

All practice is good! You might need to travel to someplace where you can get a good zero off a bench, but you will find no more challenge than offhand iron sight shooting to hone your shooting skills.
Sight Alignment, Steady Position, Breathing, and Trigger Squeeze - All you need to know. Offhand is the most difficult position to master because you deal with all things at once. Try to hook up with an experienced shooter to help coach you along - an impartial observer that knows what you should be doing. Read up on the finer points of target shooting in the standing position so you can figure out how to improve your position and stability. All those fundamentals work to kick your butt! Consistancy is key. Take the same shot every time.
Kudos on having the "guts" to try it, and good luck staying with it. I shot 3-position in college, for the fun, the relaxation, and the personal challenge. I now shoot muzzleloader, a flintlock, for the same reason; it is fun, it is laid back, and it makes me a better shooter!


SJG26,
nice sights, might try them on my 452 as well, I like a peep.

Zeede,
You might want the larger aperature on the indoor range. Low light plays hell with a tight peep.
 
Okay, I got a ruler out, and assuming you measure from the center of the two farthest holes, here are my five 10-shot groups:
4.25"
4.5"
3.75" (if I remove the one flyer it'd be 2.5")
5.25"
6.25"

Ouch, horrible! Ah well, only one direction to go from here, and that's to Improvedville.

RockRifle: Thanks for the kudos, I guess. It's not so much "guts" as how I think I ought to learn. I'm in my late 20's but I'm sorta old-fashioned when it comes to some things.

Cameron

P.S. Any suggested places to start reading up on the standing position?
 
I -HATE- shooting off a bench. this is beacuse i'm not too tall and thus they always fit me funny.

So I have always shot standing up and offhand out of necessity. after a while I learned to like it and now eschew any other method.

it gives you real world shooting skill, improves posture, and buffs up your arms to boot.

a day at the range is me shooting clays thrown up on the 100 yard berm with my 1943 SAKO Mosin Nagant M39.

ammo of choice is cz surplus silvertip.

it seldom takes me more than three shots to hit a pigeon (although I've strangely found that I shoot better after the 50 round mark, when i'm sor tof tired!)

kev
 
Ouch, horrible! Ah well, only one direction to go from here, and that's to Improvedville.

Zeede, I'd say you're doing pretty good at this point. With the notch/bead sight picture, at 25yds, my group will be all over the black of a B-16. Your groups' measurements mostly look better than that to me.

RockRifle: Thanks for the kudos, I guess. It's not so much "guts" as how I think I ought to learn. I'm in my late 20's but I'm sorta old-fashioned when it comes to some things.

I'm 32. I'm old-fashioned about some things too. While scopes aren't really new, I don't tend to get along with them as well as a good set of irons. As for guts, there's some things you won't learn if you don't have the guts to try.

Try NRA rimfire silhouette. You shoot standing at targets from 40 to 100 meters.

I've shot this course of fire with a scoped 10/22 on one occassion. On a much more recent occassion, I shot it with an aperture-sighted Remington 521-T I picked up on Gunbroker partly for this purpose. Lyman 57RS on rear and 17A with post/bead insert on front.

I -HATE- shooting off a bench. this is beacuse i'm not too tall and thus they always fit me funny.

While I don't hate shooting off a bench, and I use the bench for sight-in, I do most of my shooting from standing offhand.

So I have always shot standing up and offhand out of necessity. after a while I learned to like it and now eschew any other method.

I prefer it too.

it gives you real world shooting skill, improves posture, and buffs up your arms to boot.

Yup. Most deer hunting I've ever done never involved a bench.

a day at the range is me shooting clays thrown up on the 100 yard berm with my 1943 SAKO Mosin Nagant M39.

Me too... weapon of choice is either my old tang-sighted Winchester .30-30 or M1 Garand.:cool:
 
A-32

Our sporter rifle league shoots the A-32 NRA light rifle target at 50'.

Sounds easy? Give it a try! The 10 ring is pretty durn small and scoring well takes a steady hand and good form.

Now try it in a competative setting. You've gotta bring game:eek:
A32.gif

Rick
 
Yup. Most deer hunting I've ever done never involved a bench.
I've noticed that I can't seem to talk the wild hogs into walking in front of a bench either. They're just stubborn that way. :)
Just keep practicing on the 25 foot targets and eventually you'll get good at it. And if you can get someone to watch your form as you shoot that will likely help a lot as well.
 
25 yards is a challenge, it's not about hitting a target, that's the easy part. The hard part is consistently small groups. Olympic air rifle shooters shoot at 10 meters with the bullseye being not much bigger than the period at the end of this sentence. At any distance it's all about rock solid position and trigger control. 10 meter air rifle has vastly improved all my offhand shooting.
 
Quote:
RockRifle: Thanks for the kudos, I guess. It's not so much "guts" as how I think I ought to learn. I'm in my late 20's but I'm sorta old-fashioned when it comes to some things.

I'm 32. I'm old-fashioned about some things too. While scopes aren't really new, I don't tend to get along with them as well as a good set of irons. As for guts, there's some things you won't learn if you don't have the guts to try.
Exactly!
I've noticed that I can't seem to talk the wild hogs into walking in front of a bench either. They're just stubborn that way.
Just keep practicing on the 25 foot targets and eventually you'll get good at it. And if you can get someone to watch your form as you shoot that will likely help a lot as well.
The big thing is stepping out of the comfort zone and practicing the hardest possible stuff, so that you aren't caught off guard. If you are walking along hunting, a sudden shot is standing; If you have a little more time, you can kneel, sit, use a tree, or go prone. Take the best shot for the window you are given. If you PRACTICE, it will be familiar, and comfortable

There are no benches on a real hunt! If you need a bench, you need to get off the bench like zeede and be a real shooter! I am not advocating that everybody shoot offhand, but you need to practice and be proficient in all positions. I never met anybody that could clean the offhand and miss shots in the prone.. It just doesn't happen.

Zeede,
Several books out there - I started with Army Marksmanship Manuals, they will give you basics. I can't point you to a specifically smallbore book, I got most of that the old-fashioned way.(pain and suffering involved) Keep your eyes open, people like David Tubb and Ralph Constantine give you information between the lines. Try new things, evaluate the differences you observe, and get comfortable with shooting. It is a head game more than anything. You know the rifle will shoot, overcoming pain and the weaknesses of the human body are your real challenges. Muscle is flexible, use bone to bone bracing and good natural geometry to support the rifle. Will see if I can find a link to a good training manual...

keep with the 22lr, a .223 is fun, but not as cost effective to train with and need more space. The shooting you do with your CZ is not improving just your ability with the CZ; It improves your shooting ability with all rifles and pistols, due to improvement of your understanding of the fundamentals as you gain experience.
 
25 yds. standing

I would almost bet that 99% of shooters can't shoot 1" groups at 25 yds from standing.
One of the best targets to use is a 1" square at 25 yds., if you learn to keep all your shots in it, you are an expert and not many can top you.
 
I would almost bet that 99% of shooters can't shoot 1" groups at 25 yds from standing.

The reason for that is that if you're breathing, and we all are, the sights/crosshairs are doing circles and figure-eights all over the target. The only way you won't be moving at least some is if you're dead. I learned that shooting sillouette and being coached by an older sillouette competitor.

I've found the sights are easier to deal with than crosshairs because it allows you to focus on the sight picture instead of focussing on the wobble factor. Being able to focus on the front sight and a blurry target means you can relax and remember to breath instead of thinking "must hold steady... must control wobble..." and allowing it to tense you up. You have to relax and breath and let the front sight align with the target and time your trigger squeeze so the shot breaks as the sight's going into the bull.

One of the best targets to use is a 1" square at 25 yds., if you learn to keep all your shots in it, you are an expert and not many can top you.

I like to use a 1" bull... square or circle don't really matter to me; I posted a link to my preferred target back up the thread. But as I said, I've seen my group spread out all over a B-16 when I was shooting 25yds standing offhand for score. Thing is, I also like to use an aperture front sight for paper targets because it allows me to look straight through my sights and focus on the target.
 
I have found with my old eyes(I am almost 70) a target with a square bottom lets me hold better and have better control of my elevation.
This is with a front post sight on my M14 or my 10/22 trainer with Tech Sights.
 
mustanger98: Ah hah, so it's not supposed to be steady. I've tried holding my breath I've tried exhaling first, either way I'm still drifting to and fro. I've just ended up trying to time my trigger squeezes to coincide w/ drifting over the target. I guess my instincts were spot on :)

I went to the range a second time today, and my shooting was actually worse. I'd like to blame it on the American Eagle hollowpoint ammo I bought for cheap, but I think I was just more tired today. I had one group of four all within 1.5", but of course the fifth one was a few inches away from his buddies.

Next time I go I will see if I'm focusing the front sight or the target. I think I'm focusing on the front sight, but sometimes on the target.

My friend and his brother went with me, and at the end we swapped. Man, his Ruger 10/22 Carbine is uh, not even in the same league as my CZ 452 FS. His brother shot my rifle last and he was like, "Uh, it was weird having the bullets go right where I wanted them to. After I got used to that I was shooting much better." :D

Cameron
 
Ah hah, so it's not supposed to be steady. I've tried holding my breath I've tried exhaling first, either way I'm still drifting to and fro. I've just ended up trying to time my trigger squeezes to coincide w/ drifting over the target. I guess my instincts were spot on

Sounds to me like you had it right. That's what the smallbore sillouette guys advised me to do.

I went to the range a second time today, and my shooting was actually worse. I'd like to blame it on the American Eagle hollowpoint ammo I bought for cheap, but I think I was just more tired today. I had one group of four all within 1.5", but of course the fifth one was a few inches away from his buddies.

Another thing I picked up shooting sillouette... my club has two 40rd matches back to back, generally with a break in between. Most of the usually competitors there told me they do a few missed rounds worse in the second match. It does have to do with being a bit more tired. But it can go either way... you can do worse by being tired, but you can also use the edge being knocked off your energy to be more settled in.

I haven't shot American Eagle HP's to know their quality and consistency, but it really can't be bad stuff just for general shooting. Personally, in my Remington 521-T, I shoot that Winchester Xpert because it's a lead HP at standard velocity. It's more accurate in the match barrel than a hotter load. You might try some in your 452... might come closer to agreeing with your barrel's twist rate. That said, Ely is more expensive for a standard velocity match load, but the sillouette shooters I've been around all swear by it.

Next time I go I will see if I'm focusing the front sight or the target. I think I'm focusing on the front sight, but sometimes on the target.

My experience is that with a post/bead front sight, your focus point can change just like looking at a 3D drawing of a cube with the dotted lines. It's not hard for it to change like that.

In my last post, I mentioned having aperture inserts for my 17A front sight... this allows you to look straight through your sights and focus on the target. I know a match shooter who uses that sight picture on his '03A3 to real good effect. I shot my tightest group across the bench with the aperture insert in that 17A on my 521-T... eight of ten rounds were in the top half of the 1" circle of my preferred target- the one I posted the link to- and the other two rounds landed just a touch high.

My friend and his brother went with me, and at the end we swapped. Man, his Ruger 10/22 Carbine is uh, not even in the same league as my CZ 452 FS. His brother shot my rifle last and he was like, "Uh, it was weird having the bullets go right where I wanted them to. After I got used to that I was shooting much better."

My way of thinking... both my Remington and your CZ and your friends 10/22 all have their place. I've shot 10/22 too and it's not a bad rifle. It's just not a match rifle. But when you turn one into a match rifle, all you have left is the receiver and you will have sunk so much into it that you're a lot better off to buy your CZ or my Remington.

FWIW, before scoping the 10/22, I couldn't hit much with it. I couldn't do much with the Ruger factory sights. I do notice Cabela's has listed an aperture rear sight that bolts on to the receiver... I'd be half a mind to try one of those and see what happens.
 
Welp, I thought I'd throw out an update.

I've started using 2" orange targets, the sticker ones that you can buy in a pack. I know that 4 MOA or one inch is the goal, but for now I'm just working on endurance (holding a rifle steady while standing for over an hour and 100 rounds isn't something I'm used to) and trying to work on averaging a higher and higher number of hits. Just to recap:

CZ 452 FS, 10 shots per target, .22LR, iron sights, standing (no sling) at 25 yards.

Tonight I managed six hits on one of the targets, I was stoked!

Cameron
 
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