.270 bolt: which one?

[AStone]

I was not going to chime in, because it appeared you were set on the .270.

I definitely was when I started this thread, Shooter. I thought I'd done all my homework, but this recoil issue has popped up for me. Hence my reconsideration to include the 7mm-08 & .308.

The .270 is great for long shots on antelope in flat terrain, but I suspect for your neighborhood most any caliber will do.

Most of my "neighborhood" is indeed forested mountains (west side of Cascades). But over on the east side, there are some BIG open desert grassland spaces where the antelope roam. That's why I'm thinking something other than .30-30.

If you want iron sights it will be easier to get them from the factory, and they are not available on all models, so this may be a concern.

Good point. I do think I want iron sights even though I hope to scope it, also. There's something of a preparedness/redundancy is good kind of thinking in me that says, 'hey, it can't be bad to have some auxillary sights other than a scope, just in case TEOTWAWKI happens and the scope gets busted...'

In that regard, I like the looks of the Tikka T3.

Nem

 

[AStone]

If you take similar rifles in 7mm 08, .270, .30-06, .308 Winchester and load them with 150 gr or 140 gr bullets, I doubt anyone can tell the difference just by recoil.

Thanks for the clarification, Geoff. Very interesting.

So, it appears to me that we (those participating in this thread) have a difference of opinion about this recoil issue. Some clearly seem to be saying that - all things begin equal in terms of bullet mass, and I'm adding factory rounds that are not loaded 'hot' - there IS a difference between those calibers, while others like Geoff say there IS NO noticable or significant difference between them.

Hmm. Very interesting.

Since recoil IS an issue for me, I'm hoping we can solve this little disagreement.

Nem

 

[wickedsprint]

I have only fired one .270, in a winchester model 70 that was pretty light, seemed to be pretty mild, felt less than my old .30-06, however to answer your question I think that cartidge deserves to be in a model 70 classic.

 

[Rem700SD]

How far are you going to carry this rifle when you hunt? One way to mitigate the recoil is to simply use a heavier rifle. A muzzlebreak is another option, but I'm personally not fond of them. Lighter rifles in any calibre will have substantially more recoil.

 

[atblis]

If you haven't figured out

people are going to recommend that you buy what they have. After all it wouldn't be the best if they didn't own it.

That being said. Buy a Tikka. They are the most accurate and have the best trigger. All the others suck (Escpecially Savage).

 

[AStone]

Wicked, Winchesters are fine guns, even if slightly above my budget for this rifle. However, my biggest objection to Winchester Model 70 is - as far as i can tell - they don't offer it with a synthetic stock. Perhaps I'm wrong, but their web page on that model doesn't show one.

How far are you going to carry this rifle when you hunt? One way to mitigate the recoil is to simply use a heavier rifle. A muzzlebreak is another option, but I'm personally not fond of them. Lighter rifles in any calibre will have substantially more recoil.

Rem700SD, I guess I know which rifle you'd recommend.

To answer your question about distance of carry, probably further than I want to carry it back. That is, knowing me, being a walker (that's half the hunt for me, just to get out and see the area), I'll wind up carrying it a long way.

Hence part of my motivation for a shorter barrel (I like 22") and a moderate weight gun, which is of course, tied to my concern about recoil & why I'm leaning towards 7mm, yada yada.

And I'm like you re muzzle breaks. From what I've read, I don't think I want to consider one.

Atblis, I do like the Tikka's. I've only handled one so far, and that was before I began to get serious about this decision process (which is still a ways away before I buy). But I liked them then, I like what I'm reading about them and am happy to be hearing so many good things about them.

Nem

 

[one-shot-one]

said by others

"Of course it is dependent on the weight of the rifle. The Savage 16, in 7mm-08, weighs 6.5 pounds and will kick more than a Remington CDL that weighs 7.5 pounds, etc.."
it also depends on how well a rifle "fits" you.
had a win mod. 70 pre-'64 in .30-06 that kicked the heck out of me.
had a ruger #1 in 7mm mag. that "felt" better on my shoulder.
fit and weight is everything in felt recoil. also the weight of the bullet/unburned powder/and gas from burned powder contribute to recoil and muzzle blast. thats why the .270 (nearly same powder capacity as .30-06) "kicks" harder than the .308 again depending on fit and weightof the rifle.
all that said i'd go with the rem. 700 or my second choice win. 70 with the tika bringing up 3rd.

 

[AStone]

OK, so let's review.

We all agree that weight & fit of the rifle is important to recoil. Check.

We also all agree that some kind of recoil pad (e.g., an R3 on the Remington) is a good thing to reduce 'felt' recoil. Check.

What I'm still trying to get at is this: ceteris parabus (all other things being equal) - equal weight, equally good fit, same bullet mass, factory rounds not loaded hot, recoil pad, no muzzle break, etc, etc, - does a 270 produce more 'felt' recoil than a 7mm & .308? I think the consensus answer is emerging as yes, but am still uncertain because it seems that some don't agree.

One Shot's comment here seems to contribute to an answer:

also the weight of the bullet/unburned powder/and gas from burned powder contribute to recoil and muzzle blast. thats why the .270 (nearly same powder capacity as .30-06) "kicks" harder than the .308 again depending on fit and weightof the rifle.

There's a key, IMO: that the .270 has "nearly same powder capacity as .30-06".

all that said i'd go with the rem. 700 or my second choice win. 70 with the tika bringing up 3rd.

OneShot, would you offer any specifics about why you put Rem at #1 & Tikka at #3?

Danke,

Nem

 

[wickedsprint]

Wicked, Winchesters are fine guns, even if slightly above my budget for this rifle. However, my biggest objection to Winchester Model 70 is - as far as i can tell - they don't offer it with a synthetic stock. Perhaps I'm wrong, but their web page on that model doesn't show one.

Their website shows a synthetic model in blued or stainless, called the classic ultimate shadow. Or the standard stainless/syn model which in the picture shows iron sights, but that is only for the .375 H&H model.

 

[AStone]

Their website shows a synthetic model in blued or stainless, called the classic ultimate shadow.

Thanks for pointing that out. It wasn't in their Model 70 listings that I got, but if one does a search on Classic Ultimate Shawdow, it comes up.

This one is interesting - no to mention beautiful but 1) it's probably over my budget (MSRP is over $800); 2) it appears only available in WSM & WSSM. I'm leaning towards more standard cartridges at this point; don't think I'm ready to go WSM.

Thanks, Wicked.

Nem

 

[wickedsprint]

My bust, I did not notice the WSM after the caliber choice, I agree withy ouon standard calibers as well. I know you probably hate walmart as much as me and the next guy, but their catalog has some nice orderable model 70's, the .270 version of mine has no iron sites, but is likely less than 700 bucks, about 200 off MSRP from the Winchester site, however the one they picture has the sights because it is the .375 H&H model.

 

[one-shot-one]

what i'm most familiar with

i recomended the 700 because i shot more of them than tika (never shot a tika all my info is third party) i really like my win. mod. 70 black shadow but it wasn't on your list so i put it second (actually prices are usually lower than those listed on the manufactor site).
the problem is that all most of us can give you is totally subjective as i have not shot all of the calibers listed in the same weight rifle, but in the identical rifle the list should go.
7mm mag.(140 gr. bullet/lots of powder)
30-06 (150 gr. bullet/still a lot of powder)
270 (130 gr. bullet/still a lot of powder)
308 (150 gr. bullet/not as much powder)
7mm08 (140 gr. bullet/not as much powder)
again a well fitting rifle in a std. weight not light or short bbl length should be ok for all but the most recoil sensitive or someone who wants to punch paper all day long.

 

[one-shot-one]

also two mod. 70 stainless are availble in your cal.

http://www.winchesterguns.com/prodinfo/catalog/detail.asp?cat_id=535&type_id=012&cat=001C

http://www.winchesterguns.com/prodinfo/catalog/detail.asp?cat_id=535&type_id=956&cat=001C

 

[mountainclmbr]

I have .270, .308 and 30-06. I don't notice much difference except for the heavier rifles. My Rem 700 ADL .270 that I have owned ...Yikes....28 years...is the most accurate. If you ever decided to go after something bigger than elk, the 30-06 will handle heavy bullets better.

 

[Rem700SD]

One other thing to consider, is that Remington, iirc, now offers reduced recoil loads for many popular hunting calibers. The .270 is one of these.
I don't recall if you reload or not, but recoil can be reduced by modifying your loads.
Heavier bullets over the same powder= bigger recoil. By reducing powder charge or bullet weight recoil can be reduced, hence the .270 recoiling less than 30-06, powder charges being equal.

 

[usmarine0352_2005]

Why not a Winchester?

WHY NOT A WINCHESTER?

Why not look at a Winchester Model 70??? It's a great gun, and the new "SUPER SHADOWS" come in under $500.

Put more money into your scope then your gun. It's worth it. All of these guns will shoot good well, a good scope will set them apart.

The Savage and the Ruger 77 are also great guns.

 

[AStone]

Rem700, I don't reload, and probably won't for the forseeable future at least, but yes I'm aware one can get the reduced recoil loads. I've got some on order for my shotgun (rr 00).

But I'm hoping to be able to pick a caliber that I can use full potential on without having to cut back to RR rounds. Still, thanks for the reminder of that option.

Mountainclimbr, I'm hoping not to go with .30-06. Indeed, I'm aware of what a great caliber it is, the rounds available, etc. I know that many on this forum that I trust & respect think very highly of it. Check.

But I'm just not convinced it's the caliber for me right now. Eventually? Maybe, but not for a first large caliber (larger than .22 LR). I want to step up gradually, see what the medium sized center fires will do. I think they'll probably always meet my needs. (I'm not going to hunt BIG game. Mostly whitetail, mulies and antelope, and could - in a TEOTWAWKI situation - would like to be able to take smaller elk.

WHY NOT A WINCHESTER?

Why not look at a Winchester Model 70??? It's a great gun, and the new "SUPER SHADOWS" come in under $500.

Well, you and OneShot are being fairly persistent with this Winchester idea.

OK, I'm looking now. I'm adding it to my list of considered rifles.

Indeed the super shadow looks pretty fine . Love the stock. Solid reviews even if not raving ones.

My only issues are: 1) I'm still not convinced I want to go the WSM route (which super shadow shoots), and 2) does super shadow come in stainless with synthetic furniture? (Too tired tonight to search Winchester's web site for it.)

The classic comes in stainless with synthetic, but baby look at those MSRPs. eek: )

Still, I'll give one a test fondle once I get around to that phase of the search.

Which admittedly is several weeks away. I've been laboring long hours for seven days a week for the last 45 days {I even worked Christmas day} with a studio build out. Dang it, I don't even have time to get out and shoot my new shottie, let alone pick up my new CZ 452 and shoot it. I surf THR during my construction breaks as a way to maintain my sanity in the midst of chaos. Thanks for contributing to my fantasies about future guns to round out my core functional collection, and helping me research what it may be.)

Nem

 

[mosinjoe]

I used a beat to hell model 110e .270 to harvest a 130# doe at 140 yards and also killed a 145# 6 point (small rack) buck at 120 yards. I did not feel undergunned at all with this rifle and have since purchased a Savage 110 with a Bushnell Banner scope in 30/06. I paid 265.00 all up at a local pawnshop. This rifle is in excellent condition and was a bargain to boot. Have a hard look at Savage and you wiil be impressed at some of the feedback. The decision on my part regarding choice of caliber is a no-brainer.

 

[AStone]

does super shadow come in stainless with synthetic furniture? (Too tired tonight to search Winchester's web site for it.)

Well, my curiousity got the best of me (so tired I can't even sit up straight, but still curious).

It appears the super shadow comes in blued only, but the ultimate shadow is stainless with synthetic stock.

Prices (MSRP) are back up in the $800 realm, which may be out of my reach for a while.

Looks like Winchester & Remington are feeding off each other for those all weather, synth, stainless rifles. I started lusting after one of Remington's 700XCR a couple of months ago. Same basic price point as the Ultimate Shadow, lot's of refinement, nice stock features, etc.

Felt absolutely incredible just to handle it. Definitely a cut above a standard 700 in quality with a price tag to reflect that.

I can imagine the Ultimate Shadow is similar.

Maybe someday.

But right now, a late dinner & off to bed.

Nem

 

[EZ CZ75]

My first rifle was a Savage 110 in 270 WIN. Great gun and the ballistics outdo the 30-06 in sense of trajectory. I have shot a lot of 270's and 06's and the weird thing I have noticed is that even though the 06's push a little harder, the 270 will snap at you. Compare it to being gently pushed over onto your ass (30-06) to being slapped in the face for that last thing you shouldn't have said (270).

I wouldn't count out the 243, though. I hadn't had much exposure to it until I met my wife and her family, but that is a staple of theirs. Plus, they hunted SW Wyoming for years for mulies and antelope and their 243's took plenty. With elk, though, you would need to keep the shots under 1000 yards.

Rifle-wise, all of your options are great. My experience has just been that the Tikka is about the best bang for the buck, but those CZ's are right there with them. Some people don't like some of the plastics on the Tikka, but can we say "Glocks"!

 

[steelhead]

Although recoil can be objectively measured, it is completely subjective to the individual shooter. You already have an 870 that I assume is in 12 gauge. If you can handle that recoil - then a rifle in 06 or 270 is not going to be a problem.

Ultimately, you are never going to find your answer sitting behind a computer. You need to join a rifle range, make some friends, and shoot their rifles (in as many different calibers as possible). That way you will get a feel for the different cartridges/lead launchers, and see which setup you like best. Trying to find a consensus, on a particular brand, caliber, or action type (on an internet gun forum), will not happen in our lifetime.....

 

[kbheiner7]

First off, .270 is a great choice for most work.

I'll disagree and say that the .270 kicks slightly less than a .30-06. After all, they throw slightly lighter bullets at similar speeds.

Personally, if you have a budget of up to $600, I don't know how you go to anything but Remington. They are smooth, reliable and accurate to the point that most competitive shooters and military units start most of their specialty guns with the 700 platform.

I really like the looks of the Tika T3, but have heard multiple accounts of bad metallurgy - meaning Ka-booms.

For those really on a budget, the Savage is a heckuva rifle for little dinero. I don't, however, think it's the equal of some of the others.

I'm not a fan of newer Brownings or Winchesters. They're simply not the equals of their predecessors.

 

[AStone]

Although recoil can be objectively measured, it is completely subjective to the individual shooter. You already have an 870 that I assume is in 12 gauge. If you can handle that recoil - then a rifle in 06 or 270 is not going to be a problem.

Reasonable points there, Steelhead.

I'll add two respects in which I think my 870P 12 ga differs from the rifle I want to buy.

1) I bought the 12 ga (v. a 20) because it is so widely used. The range of ammo is larger, the availability is better, including reduced recoil. With a shottie, I can use reduced recoil & still blow a hole in an intruder at 7 yds or 7 ft with aplumb. I'm OK with that. I may choose to load a full load as #3 rnd just in case the RR's don't quite stop the guy.

I can also shoot RR's and birdshot for practice.

But RR's for 12 ga aren't available in all shot sizes. For 12, currently, only 00, #4 and slugs. I can't get RR in #1 buck.

But I'd rather buy a rifle in which I don't need to shoot RR rounds. I'd rather buy a rifle with lots of ammo options that will let me use full loads in ALL the cartridge options.

2) Shotguns are pointed. Rifles are aimed.

If I flinch a bit when pointing my shotgun at a target a 7 yds, it's OK. No big issue.

If I flinch a bit when aiming my rifle at a target that's 70 yds, or 170 yds, then big deal.

I'm researching opinions that will help me reduce that FP (flinch potential; ok, i made that up; but you get the point).

Ultimately, you are never going to find your answer sitting behind a computer. You need to join a rifle range, make some friends, and shoot their rifles (in as many different calibers as possible). That way you will get a feel for the different cartridges/lead launchers, and see which setup you like best. Trying to find a consensus, on a particular brand, caliber, or action type (on an internet gun forum), will not happen in our lifetime.....

Again, we agree.

But then I never said I was looking for 'the answer' here. If you read back in this thread, you'll find that I stated that I'm just beginning this search, that I haven't even really been out looking at rifles yet, but am seeking opinions that will help me evaluate rifles when I actually go looking at them and taking a few for a test drive.

This is just step one. I'm months ahead of the game in this case. Asking questions, reading opinions (diverse as they are), then asking more questions and reading more opinions is immensely helpful to me in making a decision.

Thanks for your thoughts, Steelhead.

Nem

 

[AStone]

To Tikka or not to Tikka

EZ & KB, you guys differ pretty substantially on your assessment of Tikkas.

I'll not assign right or wrong to either view, just listen in. Thanks for sharing your views.

Today (at least, who knows about tomorrow), I tend to agree on some subliminal gut level with KB: being a Remington owner now (and twice in the past), I'll confess to being strongly attracted to the 700 platform, especially <ahem> that 700XCR. I have mentioned the 700XCR previously right? Right.

<Emoticon denoting gun lust>

What can I say: it's just a sexy gun, one of those that says 'reach out and touch <name your animal> one'.

{Edited to add: I just checked: the XCR is not available in 7mm08 or .308, only .270 (of the calibers I'm considering). Hmm. That could influence a decision if I decide to expand the budget. Right now, looking at projected income for the next few months, I don't see it. I'm likely to have to go for an SPS Stainless 700, which is available in 7mm08 & 270 Win.}

Ah, glad I've got some time to make this decision.

Researching guns is so much fun, and makes the next part - fondling & test driving - so much easier.



Nem (who taped, mudded & put the primer coat on the work room tonight while daydreaming of center fire rifles & the super model in a full page ad in the newspaper protecting the floor from paint splatter ...

 

[EZ CZ75]

I really like the looks of the Tika T3, but have heard multiple accounts of bad metallurgy - meaning Ka-booms.

Are you referring to the problem that Sako had with one lot of its SS barrels? I wasn't aware that any Tikka's had this problem. I just played it safe and bought a blued Sako. Love it!

NEM, don't get me wrong on the Remington, I absolutely love the actions in those rifles. I just tend to like brands that others just don't use or shoot as much. Sako, Tikka, CZ, Huglu, Howa, etc.