2A is archaic

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Your friend is a dangerous idiot. By his logic the First Amendment is even more archaic, and so are most other articles in the Bill of Rights and the Constitution himself. Here's how his thinking works.

The First Amendment to the Constitution was written at a time when there was no media except newspapers, leaflets, and posters: all of it was printed, by hand, one sheet of paper at a time. Newspapers were issued weekly or monthly, so the First Amendment guarantee of "freedom of the press" applies only to hand printed materials produced on a printing press and published no more frequently than once a week. Your local penny saver shopper might be protected by the First Amendment because it is issued weekly if it is printed on a hand press. If not, it has no freedom of the press. Daily newspapers like The New-York Times and the Washingon Post can't possibly be protected by freedom of the press because they are not in any way the kind of publication that existed at the time of the Bill of Rights.

The people who wrote and adopted the Bill of Rights could not possibly have predicted radio, television, the Internet, or any other electronic medium, so they couldn't possibly have intended to extend the First Amendment to protect any journalism in those media.

For those same reasons and others, the First Amendment can't possibly protect free speech over the telephone, radio, television, movies, recordings, the Internet, and other modern media. They did not exist and could not have been predicted at the time of the First Amendment, so they just can't be protected by its guaranteed freedom of speech. There were no amplifiers or sound systems then so when a person talks into a microphone and his voice goes through a speaker, what he says is not protected by the First Amendment. The only speech that existed then is the only kind of speech the people who wrote the First Amendment could have intended to protect.

The First Amendment also can't possibly protect any religion that did not exist then. Say goodbye to freedom of religion for the Church of Latter Day Saints (the Mormons), Christian Science, Conservative Judiasm, and Reformed Judiasm, among many other religions that did not exist at the end of the Eighteenth Century.

Follow your friend's logic, apply it to other amendments, and you probably justify reintroducing slavery and revoking the right of women to vote. Your friend, the media, the Brady Campaign, Hillary Clinton, and others are going down a dark road that has potential horrors at its end. The Constitution is essentially a contract. They want to twist its terms as never before. My guess is that they will succeed, but that they won't like the results of the precedent they are establishing.
 
As long as evil exist the 2A will never be archaic and as long as we have a government and criminals it will never be archaic, if 2A is archaic then the entire Declaration of Independence and the U.S. Constitution are archaic.
 
No! NO! NO!

"The Government" does not get to decide which rights we can have - the Constitution does that.

The Constitution GUARANTEES the rights that we have as American citizens! It does not GIVE us rights. Maybe this is the fundamental problem. People actually believe that the Constitution (hence, the “government” in most sheeple’s little minds) GIVES us rights. What the h@ll are they teaching in school these days?
 
Focus: How is the 2A not archaic and still applicable to today?

Right to carry, for one, has not exactly been a regressive trend...

right-to-carry-history.gif
 
The 2A is archaic. So is the 1A. So is the Bible.

Some of us would rather "live in the past" and choose to see the timeless value of these cherished documents.

Do not move the ancient landmark that your fathers have set. - Proverbs 22:28 (ESV)
 
The 2A is archaic. So is the 1A. So is the Bible.

Good point... antis often forget that the Constitution was ratified in 1789 and the Bill of Rights two years later. If one Amendment is archaic and doesn't apply then the same for all of them. That is always left out of their argument.

Logically I do not understand how someone can support one amendment and oppose the others. You cannot pick and choose. You either support the Constitution or you don't.
 
ZeSpectre:
Unfortunately, many governments (at this point in time) are more like Cathy Bates in "The Water Boy".


Maybe more like Cathy Bates in Stephen King's "Misery"
 
Remember the good o' days? Like about...oh.. 60 years ago or so. Before "liberals". Back when our government put about 65,000 Americans in "re-location centers" against their will. ooops.. I take that back. FDR was the Democrat who redefined liberalism. And he fought the Nazi's.
Anyways, back to the topic. During WW2, the US forcibly put 110,000 people in internment camps. Over 60% were US citizens. The Supreme Court upheld it. Did the Constitution or Bill of Rights apply then? The Fifth Amendment was cleary ignored. But on the other-hand, if all of the citizens who were being relocated had automatic rifles, would our country be better off? Who would support them shooting against police officers and American soldiers? Doesn't the Bill of Rights and 2A of the Constitution give them the right and power to fight an oppressive government? Of course, if the government followed the Constitution, it wouldn't be have been a problem.
The Constitution, Bill of Rights, the Amendments, etc, are not archaic because we constintly question it and reinterpret it. The words may be old, but the meanings are fresh. This forum groups proves that 2A is a lively and debatable topic. Far from being archaic. Archaic means old and no longer used. 2A is used daily. Everyday people buy guns because 2A gives us the right to. It's used in courtrooms and by politicians. It's election time. How many politicians are increasing gun rights? How many are politicians are restricting them? How can 2A be archaic? I wouldn't be rambling here if the topic of 2A was dead.
 
The Short And Sweet

The 2a may be archaic, but the right protected is timeless in that it is relevant in any period, any place, to any people, because the right is inalienable, absolute, and indispensable to the security of man and his freedom.

Woody

You all need to remember where the real middle is. It is the Constitution. The Constitution is the biggest compromise - the best compromise - ever written. It is where distribution of power for security and the common good meets with the protection of rights, freedom, and personal sovereignty. B.E.Wood
 
Second Amendment

So if the Second Amendment is archaic, I guess defending rights and one's life is archaic ? I hope your friend likes the idea of tyranny. Without guns, what's to stop corrupt gov't officials ? (Before anybody says the courts, remember, they depend on Sheriffs/Marshals to enforce their decrees. These folks are generally armed. )
 
He then says it doesn't matter if the population is armed, that if the government really wanted to use the army to round up civilians for whatever purpose, that they could easily do it and being armed isn't going to make a difference.
Tell that to the German army after it had suppressed a ghetto in Warsaw, Poland.
 
Its about World History, stupid!!

The Constitution GUARANTEES the rights that we have as American citizens! It does not GIVE us rights. Maybe this is the fundamental problem. People actually believe that the Constitution (hence, the “government” in most sheeple’s little minds) GIVES us rights. What the h@ll are they teaching in school these days?
I gotta say both parties play into this crap line of thinking. Which doesnt help.



Protecting your life, thinking your life is worth protecting....its....its so yesterday....its just not progressive you know....
 
Focus: How is the 2A not archaic and still applicable to today?
If the 2nd Amendment is "archaic", then how could the 1st possibly NOT be???

If it only protects the right to possess flintlock muskets, why doesn't the 1st only protect town criers and broadsheets printed on lead type?

If it only protects the National Guard, why doesn't the 1st only protect government PR flacks?
 
The 2nd A says bear ARMS, not bear GUNS. The common soldier gets anti-tank weapons. The common soldier gets anti-aircraft weapons. The common soldier gets a tank. How are you going to stack up your rifle against a tank or jet fighter? The government has nuclear arms. We justify the spending of tax dollars to build nuclear arms as a defense to other nations in the theory of "mutual destruction". In the same order, the citizens of this country needs nuclear weapons as a defense against any government domestic or foreign with nuclear capabilities.

Some will say they don't need nuclear weapons and can do without it even in war, but that doesn't mean everyone else should be banned of it. Some people currently say you can do without assault weapons (or anything tacti-cool) for home defense, but do you support that?

There may be no explicit law that says you can't own a SAM site, but there are laws in place that prevents you from REASONABLY getting one. The distributors that funnel the weapons for the government are not allowed to funnel them to you. If you will not tolerate this type of restriction of firearms, why do you tolerate them on missiles, bombs and tanks? How come I don't see any support for this rationale? You can't pitch the "defense" against government suppression without fighting against such policies that prevent the citizens from being a formidable force against a modern army.

I see alot of people defend the 2nd A solely for the idea of self defense against the common "perp". The 2nd A needs to be re-written to clarify solely for this purpose if that is the case. Otherwise, we should all be in support of an open market to the civilian population on anything that the US/Foreign militaries have.

Goodness where to begin.. In the common terminology in use at the time the Constitution was written, ARMS meant pistols and rifles. Therefore it still means the same thing. Common soldiers do not get anti-tank or anti-aircraft armaments, nor do they get tanks. These are all specialized equipment for troops who have been trained in a particular MOS. As for the ability of small arms to stop aircraft or tanks, pilots and tank drivers have to eventually get out of their vehicles to rest, eat, perform maintenance, re-arm, re-fuel, etc. Would you like to be under small arms fire while trying to do any of those things? The defense against tyranny argument still works because all the tanks and planes in the world can't stop the infantry (or the militia!)
 
Tell that to the German army after it had suppressed a ghetto in Warsaw, Poland.
Just in case people don't know, this was the original Ghetto where Jews were forced to live. If I remember right, the Germans were using it as a central point to ship Jews off to camps. The Jews there had nothing to lose and started an uprising with whatever weapons they could get hold of. The Germans had to bring in a crack combat group and expend a great deal of artillery and ammunition to take it back. As a side note, those Jews appealed to the Polish underground for help but were ignored. Later on, that same Polish underground did their own uprising as the Russians came in and were wiped out without getting Russian support. That is 2nd hand history so my details may be off a bit.
 
I think Americans are spoiled that they live in a country that has a tradition of law and order and respecting the rule of law. They just can't grasp the reality of an opressive govt. Hell, I am not sure I can, but I know enough that I don't want to see it up close at all.
 
MecAg94

I think Americans are spoiled that they live in a country that has a tradition of law and order and respecting the rule of law. They just can't grasp the reality of an opressive govt. Hell, I am not sure I can, but I know enough that I don't want to see it up close at all.

Don't look now, my friend, but you are seeing that oppressive government in the fetal stage every time you gaze toward Washington DC. It began to grow when the Commerce Clause was turned upon its head, and it gets fertilized each and every time a new law infringing upon our right to ward that beast off is passed and allowed to stay on the books by the Supreme unConscious(Supreme Court).

Our current crop of representatives is as much to blame as those who enacted that law, for they have failed to remove it. Make some wise choices this November. It's our only hope of winning back our freedoms and uninfringing our rights without shedding blood.

Woody

"I swear to protect the Right to Keep and Bear Arms, but I am not trigger-happy. I am merely prepared and determined in its defense. It's a comfortable place to be. I don't suffer doubt." B.E.Wood
 
He said he has no problem with Democrats placing restrictions on the types of guns we can own. Such as assualt weapons, he says, you don't need them.
I guess if his position is the government is justified in all instances of using armed might to control its citizens, he is probably right.

Pilgrim
 
So many things to complain about, and so little time, so I will start with

Quatin? If the government wants to destroy us (citizens), and the country they can, no problem, but they do not want to destroy, they want to rule, and they want what they rule to be worth something. nukes, and napalm, and massive bombardment are not in line with their needs. IF the citizens resist to oppresive law to the point that any soldier or policeman that ventures out of doors, gets shot at, how long can it go on without a victor? We are talking about the time when you pick your side, and live or die with it.

Mech? I like your comparison. I am not a historian, but if memory serves me right the fighters in the Warsaw ghetto numbered less than two hundred out of thousands of sheep, basically unarmed, stole their weapons from the enemy, and kept 20,000 of Germany's finest soldiers occupied for months before they were finaly burned out.

cyco668?? ( is that a play on words hidining phsycho 666?) Our government is not perfect. At that time their arrest and detention would have been supported by the general public. I agree it was not right. But I understand why it happened. So if any had resisted, with or without force they would have been demonized. Do you understand? Maybe if they had machine guns it would have been different, maybe not.

Carter? Thanx for the map, but kansas should not turn blue until january one, at present we are still a criminal protection zone. ( I hope you do not mind that I am snatching it, and saving it for future debate:))

I am not going to respond to the first page, this may already be to long to get read.

AND for a side note? When the main stream media announces that electronic media, and electronic presses, and telephones, and faxes are not protected under the first amendment, I will accept their condemnation of "assault weapons" protection under the second amendment...

TY, I feel better now
 
Lemon328i

Goodness where to begin.. In the common terminology in use at the time the Constitution was written, ARMS meant pistols and rifles. Therefore it still means the same thing. Common soldiers do not get anti-tank or anti-aircraft armaments, nor do they get tanks. These are all specialized equipment for troops who have been trained in a particular MOS. As for the ability of small arms to stop aircraft or tanks, pilots and tank drivers have to eventually get out of their vehicles to rest, eat, perform maintenance, re-arm, re-fuel, etc. Would you like to be under small arms fire while trying to do any of those things? The defense against tyranny argument still works because all the tanks and planes in the world can't stop the infantry (or the militia!)

Look up the definition of arms and it is weapons. Look up the definition of weapon and it is any instrument used in fighting. Neither have changed since the invention of those words. As for what common soldiers get, who do you think operates those specialized pieces of equipment?

That is a great suggestion about waiting to hit the tank drivers and pilots when they exit their "equipment" to gas them up, rearm, eat, sleep, etc. BUT, the problem is the havoc they exact before they stop to gas them up, rearm, eat, sleep, etc, that is the problem! Wouldn't it be nice to be able to stop these people IN THE ACT of killing before they run out of ammo? Wouldn't it be nice not to be mere cannon fodder to make the attacker run out of ammo so someone else can bag him during a pit stop? Sorry, my life is quite valuable - just as valuable as anyone else's! What makes these minions of some despotic government so special that they can have tanks, planes, and all the other goodies and not me? I've actually got the right! All the minion has is the usurped power of his despotic government.

Sorry, our Founding Fathers, in their wisdom, knew to ensure we would always be ready, equipped, and able to fend off ANY enemy, foreign - and yes - or DOMESTIC! That means we get whatever arms we can afford as we desire, feel the need for, want, covet, cherish, can devise, or that might come along as a consequence of invention. That would include SAMs, RPGs, tanks, aircraft, privateers, ICBMs, and even - dare I say it? - nukes.

Look at it this way: If those in our government up and decided to disarm us and force us into servitude for the sake of the "government", then that "government" is no longer our government(of, by, and for the people). It is "theirs". That makes them our enemy and master, and a dastardly despotic one at that, having taken all the weapons we amassed for our defense when the "government" was ours and turned them against us!

Never allow an infringement to the right, and work as hard as you can to remove those that are on the right as we speak. It is not so we may topple the government, it is so we may protect ourselves from it if it gets out of line.

Woody

Look at your rights and freedoms as what would be required to survive and be free as if there were no government. If that doesn't convince you to take a stand and protect your inalienable rights and freedoms, nothing will. If that doesn't convince you to maintain your personal sovereignty, you are already someone else's subject. If you don't secure your rights and freedoms to maintain your personal sovereignty now, it'll be too late to come to me for help when they come for you. I will already be dead because I had to stand alone. B.E.Wood
 
Woody? I am not sure that I know your opinion, but,,,, I have no interest in being "cannon fodder" in any war, against foreign or domestic attack. The jews in The Warsaw Ghetto did not want to be there either. When they looked around and analysed their situation, they had passed the point of no return. They had to fight with nothing, or die.

WE have not passed that point. We still have our votes, and we still have our assault weapons,,,, And our squirrel rifles, and deer rifles, and shotguns for shooting fowl. We still have our cheap "saturday night specials", we still have our military caliber weapons,,,,,,,, AND our brains.

My wishes for the future, consider, that I am 57 now, and my oldest grand daughter is now seven, is that all of my grandkids are allowed to own, and purchase, and carry firearms, in any manner that they want to,,,,,,, And I DO understand that the permission for my granddaughters absolutely HAS to include permission for the predators that may want to do them harm..... Grampa will do his best to make them aware. and competent :), and be pleased that he tried.
 
ksnecktieman

Please know that it isn't a "permission" thing. It is a right. You do not need permission to exercise a right - especially one that government is expressly forbidden to infringe upon.

Woody

"We the People are the government of this land, we decide who writes our laws, we decide who leads us, and we decide who will judge us - for as long as We the People have the arms to keep it that way." B.E.Wood
 
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