30-06 as a long range round?

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Purely from the standpoint of accuracy (not trajectory, wind drift, recoil, et cetera), and within the confines of effective range (generally considered to be just short of the trans-sonic region), I am convinced that cartridge design doesn't make a bit of difference. There is a tiny bit of difference with action length due to stiffness, but other than that the difference is primarily the shooters capability and the equipment being utilized.
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Hmm....ever hear of the 22 PPC...or 6mm PPC? Ask a benchrest competitor if cartridge design matters. It most assuredly does as much as I hate it. I love the little 222 Rem. as it is an extremely inherently accurate cartridge and at one time totally dominated the benchrest competition field. Now it has all but been replaced by the PPC's.

35W
 
Hmm....ever hear of the 22 PPC...or 6mm PPC? Ask a benchrest competitor if cartridge design matters. It most assuredly does as much as I hate it. I love the little 222 Rem. as it is an extremely inherently accurate cartridge and at one time totally dominated the benchrest competition field. Now it has all but been replaced by the PPC's.
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Great benchrest cartridges, because of efficiency and the short action length. They afford decent trajectory without much recoil, but I still don't believe that there is a bit of difference in accuracy due to case design. Put a .240Wby. and a 6mmPPC in a universal receiver and I can just about guarantee that the results will be the same (if you utilize components of equal quality).

:)
 
Cartridge design in benchrest is optimized for a specific performance window for specific bullets and most of all brass uniformity, conistency and life. To an extent these factors do effect accuracy but again not because some "magic" case shape makes a bullet fly straighter.

IME when firing a virgin piece of brass ALL cartridges are on a level playing field. It's afterward when you start working with your brass during reloading to achieve top precision that case shape matters

When I reamed my last heavy rifle from 7.62x39 to 30ppc Largo the actual accuracy was completely unchanged. What did change was how my brass flowed, stretched, needed trimmed and how long it lasted.
 
Cartridge design in benchrest is optimized for a specific performance window for specific bullets and most of all brass uniformity, conistency and life. To an extent these factors do effect accuracy but again not because some "magic" case shape makes a bullet fly straighter.
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Exactly! Call the .45-70Govt. a benchrest cartridge and someone will start making outstanding brass for it. Components can make all the difference in the world. Lapua makes brass for the .30-06Spd., Sierra and Berger makes bullets for it...nuff said.

:)
 
Jeff56 said:
Again if there wasn't any difference there wouldn't be so many people trying to make different calibers work better. And again back in the 60's there was some reason that Sierra 168 gr. Internaional bullet worked better in a .308 and was used almost exclusively in the .308. Other factors played a part like the fact that the Brits were shooting full bore target compeitions with .308's almost exclusively. There has to be reasons that the 6mm calibers are so dominant now. It isn't "magic" either. It's science and those who create that science are very stingy with it because they want to continue to win using it. That's why the information isn't readily available.
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If we were talking about a PPC, x47 or BR variant compared to 30-06 than I might agree to a limited extent.

But 308 just isn't enough different from 30-06 in terms of case design to matter.



Also don't kid yourself that the "lemming" factor in competition doesn't probably play as large a role as any special case. Someone wins with something it's not long till that's what everyone shoots and at the extreme edge of accuracy THINKING that your rifle/cartridge combo is more inherently accurate means it IS more accurate
 
Great benchrest cartridges, because of efficiency and the short action length. They afford decent trajectory without much recoil, but I still don't believe that there is a bit of difference in accuracy due to case design. Put a .240Wby. and a 6mmPPC in a universal receiver and I can just about guarantee that the results will be the same
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Evidently, some of the folks who develop data for the PPC cartridges have found different. From the Lyman 49th Edition manual:

6mm PPC: This cartridge has proven itself the most accurate round ever developed. <snip>

22 PPC: <snip> This is without a doubt the second most accurate cartridge available, being bested only by its 6mm near twin.

From the Hornady Fifth Edition:

6mm PPC: Few rifle experimenters achieve such success as did R. Lou Palmisano and Ferris Pindell. Their goal was to develop the most accurate cartridge known, and perhaps they did. <snip> Not only is 6mm PPC reshaped to its 6mm form, it utilizes small rifle primers and has smaller than normal flash holes, both thought to be conducive to accuracy.

22 PPC: The 22 PPC cartridge was designed by....<snip>. Their evident intention was to create an extremely efficient benchrest cartridge. The cartridge is based on the...<snip>. The fact that PPC cartridges are steadily winning bench rest matches across the country supports the theory of efficient case structure.

The assertion that the PPC cartridges are used simply because they afford a certain velocity range is invalid. If this were the case, there'd be no need for either cartridge because instead of the 22 PPC, benchresters could use the extremely plentiful .223, or the 222 Rem. Mag. both of which are ballistic twins of the PPC.
Likewise, the 6mm shooters would never have left the 6x47mm, the 6mm International or the 6mm BR.

To an extent these factors do effect accuracy but again not because some "magic" case shape makes a bullet fly straighter.
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No sir...that "magic" case shape contributes to efficiency, that in turn leads to smaller S.D.'s and extreme spreads, which aids in bullets flying straighter more consistently. One of my manuals....and forgive for not remembering which, stated that when developing loads for the 6mm PPC, their extreme spreads never exceeded 25 fps....near "magic" as far as I'm concerned.

35W
 
No sir...that "magic" case shape contributes to efficiency, that in turn leads to smaller S.D.'s and extreme spreads, which aids in bullets flying straighter more consistently. One of my manuals....and forgive for not remembering which, stated that when developing loads for the 6mm PPC, their extreme spreads never exceeded 25 fps.

35W
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Getting good ES numbers are almost purely a function of your hand-loading practices (especially sizing) and the uniformity of your cases. Any manual working up loads for PPC is probably using Lapua or Norma brass, try forming 6mm PPC from crap unsorted winchester LR primed 7.62x39 cases and note how those good ES numbers you're so quick to point out fly out the window.

There is indeed a tiny bit of an X factor for case shape, but it's only to be seen in the last few thousandth of an inch worth of accuracy at the business end of $30,000 + competition guns fired by the worlds most proficient shooters. Take either one of these elements out of the equation and this argument simply does not apply to you.

Simply put, You will not chamber an AK in 6mm PPC and set the accuracy world ablaze nor will you find one shred of difference between 308 and 30-06 if you could magically chamber THE SAME a rifle and barrel for both for a side by side test
 
There is indeed a tiny bit of an X factor for case shape, but it's only to be seen in the last few thousandth of an inch worth of accuracy at the business end of $30,000 + competition guns fired by the worlds most proficient shooters. Take either one of these elements out of the equation and this argument simply does not apply to you.
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Argue with the ballistics engineers. I seriously doubt you have anymore insight or expertise in this subject than I, unless the fact that it appears you spend more time at the keyboard than I accounts for something!:D

35W
 
I seriously doubt you have anymore insight or expertise in this subject than I, unless the fact that it appears you spend more time at the keyboard than I accounts for something!
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Spoken like someone who's UNwilling to learn new things from the experiences of others.

I've outlined the things I've learned in the pursuit of tiny groups, YOU'VE simply copy/pasted the same things we all read in the manuals when we started and didn't know any better


As I mentioned before I when I rechamberd my heavy bench gun from 7.62x39 to a longer version of .30ppc there was NO change in accuracy. What did change was load to load brass uniformity and as a result long term precision overall was improved
 
I've outlined the things I've learned in the pursuit of tiny groups, YOU'VE simply copy/pasted the same things we all read in the manuals when we started and didn't know any better
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Wow...what an arrogant thing to say. So you really DO know more than the guys who develop loads for and write the manuals? This because you rechambered one rifle? Hmmm....

What I HAVE learned in my pursuit of accuracy is that generally speaking, the 308's for which I've developed loads were far easier to find an accurate load for than the '06's. that is my experience, but I'm not pompous enough to state, as you have, that my experience is the final word...it's just my experience. But it just so happens that my experiences with said cartridges tend to parallel the findings of the engineers who do this for a living.
I've only owned/fired one 6mm PPC. It was a Hart barrel screwed into an old unmodified (other than a Sako extractor)722 action. A far cry from a "real" benchrest rifle. I fired it a quite a bit with a scope, but mostly with open sights as a High Power rifle. Hands down the most accurate rifle I've ever fired. I owe it to the cartridge, though I'm sure you disagree.

Maybe we can lock this thread now.....
35W
 
Evidently, some of the folks who develop data for the PPC cartridges have found different.
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Some folks that fly planes for a living believe that the US govt. staged the moon landing...uninformed and credulous people are not hard to find, even "professionals" (the bulk of my work is evaluating faults from other "professionals" in the industry).

Argue with the ballistics engineers. I seriously doubt you have anymore insight or expertise in this subject than I, unless the fact that it appears you spend more time at the keyboard than I accounts for something!
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Wouldn't be the first engineer that was wrong or didn't do his job right. What does post count have to do with anything?...I consider Mr. Dale a valuable resource when it comes to most anything regarding the 7.62x39mm...not because he has a high post count, or credentials, but because he has experience with the cartridge and seems to know of which he speaks. Furthermore I bet his round count exceeds his post count.

Maybe we can lock this thread now.....
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Is that your ultimate goal?
 
What does post count have to do with anything?...
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I've noticed on most forums....with a few exceptions...that the higher the post count, the more likely the poster is to be...well...an A.H. I can equate them to college professors I've had....they listen to, or in this case read/type, their own B.S. laden drivel for so long, they start to believe it.... and no amount of information or reasoning will change their minds.
Oops....sorry Mav...just noticed you're pushing 8800 posts. Spending so much time at the computer, when do either of you find time to shoot?:scrutiny:

35W
 
I can assure you my yearly centerfire round count exceeds my post count, not that it is pertinent to the topic. You can believe what you like, I couldn't care less, but trying to discredit someone on the basis that they have a high post count is low road behavior.
 
I've noticed on most forums....with a few exceptions...that the higher the post count, the more likely the poster is to be...well...an A.H. I can equate them to college professors I've had....they listen to, or in this case read/type, their own B.S. laden drivel for so long, they start to believe it.... and no amount of information or reasoning will change their minds.
Oops....sorry Mav...just noticed you're pushing 8800 posts. Spending so much time at the computer, when do either of you find time to shoot?
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I've always believed that the way to win a debate, is through logic and knowledge. Attacking someone personally, is what you do when you're already lost. ;)
 
I've noticed on most forums....with a few exceptions...that the higher the post count, the more likely the poster is to be...well...an A.H.
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By your definition, some of the best advice on this site and others comes from A.H.'s.:D Do you want the straight scoop thru personal experience, or do you want us to hold your hand and sing kumbaya?

Don
 
Back to the original question? Since both shoot the same caliber, it seems to me to be a function of the receiver design, the feed (unless shooting single shot?) which has to do with COAL, and barrel length/harmonics vs powder charge? If the rounds are spun the same the spin drift will be the same. Flight time/lag time will be slightly different in favor of the 06. Recoil will be slightly different in favor of the 308, but not by much, so any barrel movement during the internal phase should be minimally different between the two?
 
Scientists and engineers can't figure out why the bumblebee is capable of flight. I suggest that is probably why it can't be proved why the .308 is better than the 30-06.

Neither the bumblebee nor the .308 are aware that they aren't supposed to be able to do what they do.
 
Lighten up fellas, it was a humerous anecdote used to say some things aren't easily explained. Try smiling, it doesn't hurt at all.
 
I guess you have made the assumption that .308 is in fact more accurate in practice than 30-06. While that was the case in the 1960s and 1970s, I dispute that claim today based on personal experience.

There are some science based ideas on why the .308 is more inherently accurate than 30-06, such as load density, powder column length, etc. but nobody has in the past 50 years managed to scientifically prove an accuracy advantage with either, so all we have to go on is personal experience. That is one of the main points of internet forums, to share personal experience.

What I have seen in this thread are a number of people making claims of the .308's superiority based on occurrences three decades ago, and some theoretical conjecture which is loosely based in science. Then there is a whole other group of people who claim that 30-06 can shoot out of real rifles just as accurately, if not more so, than .308s, based on personal experience.

I prefer the 30-06 because it gives me a wider range of reloading options, and a bit more range over the 30-06. I own multiple rifles chambered in both. For all practical purposes there is hardly even a noticeable difference between the two. I prefer the 30-06 because it gives me a wider range of reloading options, and a bit more range.
 
I prefer the 30-06 because it gives me a wider range of reloading options, and a bit more range over the 30-06. I own multiple rifles chambered in both. For all practical purposes there is hardly even a noticeable difference between the two. I prefer the 30-06 because it gives me a wider range of reloading options, and a bit more range.
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I agree, and not thinking scientifically for a moment. the 06 is just a better looking cartridge. :D
 
A few years ago I bought a "target-ized" 03A3. It came to me with a Lyman 48S receiver sight and a Lyman 17XNA...or XNB...whichever...front sight, and is in a target stock. I touched up the bedding, reaplced the rear sight with a Redfield International, and man this thing is CRAZY accurate as in 10 shot groups @ 100 yds. well under 2" with cast bullet loads. No telling what it will do with jacketed. But the throat of the barrel is fairly eroded. Being as I love the old classy looking blued metal and wood stocked High Power rifles, I decided I want to get it rebarreled with a target weight barrel, restock it and make a bonified High Power competition rifle out of it.

There's an old WW2 vet not far from here who runs a little High Power match and was a very, very active High Power shooter years ago. He in fact earned himself a Master Classification and the much honored Distinguished Marksman classification. Here's a little of the content of a recent e-mail he sent to me regarding his competing with the 30-06:

When I had only one rifle and it was a .30'06 I tailored the ammo I loaded to fit that rifle. <snip> With a case full of 4831 powder that .30'06 was a tack driver. I shot several 100-8x rapid fire strings at 300 yards with that rifle.

For those of you not familiar with High Power, the 300 yard portion is shot unsupported, except with a sling, from the prone position, you have 70 seconds to fire 10 shots with one MANDATORY reload, and (in those days)the timer begins with the shooters STANDING, then dropping to prone when the "targets" command is given and the clock is started. "100-8X" means he put ALL 10 of his shots into an 7" bull with 8 of the 10 going either going into or touching the 3" diameter "X" ring. That my friends, is riflemanship from a shooter using a good rifle and a good cartridge!

I contacted him and sought advice regarding what type barrel to get for my 1903A3, what style stock, sights, etc. I told him I intended to rebarrel it to a 30-06 and much to my surprise, he told me I'd be better off rebarreling it 308.

I intend to stay with the '06, but I thought it was interesting that a man who in shooting competition, accomplished what most High Power competitors only DREAM of...and did it all with a 30-06, recommended I use the 308.
35W
 
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I say again, if you can't shoot like this dude:
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That was a really neat video! Amazing that a man that age can shoot that well.

I'd remind you, the 300 yd. shooting I detailed above was fired with open sights, a bolt action rifle, and under strict time constraints.
35W
 
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