differences between .308 and 30-06

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Nature Boy,

Cartridges don't have a nervous system and brain telling their shooter how they feel. Shoot the one your nervous system and brain feels best with based on your objectives, conditions and standards for doing it. If they both suit your fancy, best wishes and smile a lot.
 
Quoted from above post:
" The best .30-06 match rifles shot the best ammo into 5 to 6 inches at 600 yards tested in free recoiling machine rests. Fitting them with a 308 barrel and testing them with the same best components, they shot into 3 to 4 inches."
Very interesting, As done by whom? Best match rifles? What kind of machine rest?
Thanks.
 
Offhand asks about tiny groups with rifles:
As done by whom? Best match rifles? What kind of machine rest?
Read post 46 in this thread; it's shown in the link about David Tubb using it. Aw heck, here it is again:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/12787226@N00/sets/72157594303093714/detail/

A dozen or so of those machine rests were made by as many top ranked high power competitors; Mid Tompkins, Bob Jensen, Pat McCann, George and David Tubb, and a few others I now forget. They shared them with a host of others testing their stuff. The rifle's for end clamped in the front jaws and an escutcheon in the butt stock about an inch in front of the buttplate took the round balls on the cross bolts clamping the rifle in place. The whole thing weighed about 70 pounds. It's cradle riding on a 3-point rest weighed about 30 pounds or more. With the shooter standing behind it and pulling the trigger, it recoiled back a few inches, then was reloaded, pushed forward against its stop then the rifle's trigger pulled again. 10 shots could be fired once every 6 seconds testing rapid fire ammo for accuracy. Some of them shot that fast at 300 yards put several 10-shot groups inside 1.5 inch or so. I measured one for repeatability in aiming a rifle and the error was about 1/100th MOA at most. No other machine rest of any type has produced the results with a complete rifle as this one; as far as I know.

Mid Tompkins fired 40 shots with one putting all bullets inside 2 inches at 600 yards fired over 15 minutes total time. His Hart barrel was as hot as one ever gets. Not too shabby with full length sized 308 Win cases in a SAAMI spec chamber using an old classic Win. 70 action.
 
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The one difference I always mention when this comes up: M2 AP in .30/06 has been deemed specifically suited for sporting purposes. AP 7.62 NATO is, according to ATF, armor piercing handgun ammunition. You can load, sell, and buy m2 AP as normal ammo under ATF regs. For me in IL, I can own m2 AP in .06 but I would be a felon if I had the same round loaded in a 7.62 NATO case.
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The practical real-world differences are just not too great in my book apart from this bogus ATF "sporting" nonsense. But nonsense it might be, it could have very real legal consequences.
 
I also thank you Bart for your informed post. I get weary of posters who always post crap that is well know to be false.
But I do agree as I said before, for deer size game at reasonable ranges it is a matter of preference. And I like them both.
 
Jerkface11, if you think accuracy is only in the rifle, which of these two 175-gr. FMJBT bullets will shoot most accurate in a 30 caliber barrel with a .3080" groove diameter:

a. One that's .3070" diameter.

b. One that's .3090" diameter.

Do you think a top quality match rifle shoots all makes and types of ammo with equal accuracy?
 
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I own a couple of both, especially .308s in different platforms like .308, AR10 are a favorite, I am 61 and been around awhile, I don't even shoot anything more than a .308 anymore, 7mm-08 is a 2nd favorite. I have friends that own some calibers in mags and ultra mags that cant hit doodly because of the recoil. the .308 will do just about anything you need in North America shy of Grizzly bears. since I live in Texas we don't have grizzlies so one of my .308s is always with me...all I need.
 
Started gravitating away from the .30-06 about 30 years ago.

In my gun vault are numerous rifles in caliber .30-06, including an M1 built by the 8th Army marksmanship unit in 1963, a Griffin and Howe Springfield sporter and two model 70 Winchesters. Those rifles are seldom fired. The M1 has not been fired in many years.

Also own several rifles in .308 Winchester. This year i've fired over 3,500 rounds of .308 ammo, mostly my handloads. My most accurate .308 rifle is an accurized Remington 700 with a 26" medium weight barrel. That gun makes an old man feel good about himself.
 
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Mr Bart, thanks for your effort in sending the pics and explanations. My question however was which machine rest. As there are several types, which can have considerable bearing on quality of results. Such one in attached pic made for me by Bo Clerke,which I've long used. Bo is/was a long time high power shooter whom I used to shoot with and against. You may have heard of him. .He made a number of these that are spread around the country. (The rifle in the rest is fitted with strain gauge used for testing pressures) I smiled at mention of the familiar names in your response. Almost all of whom I shot with and against when I was with AMTU at Ft. Benning, and later. They are getting on in years, same as me. I ran into Wig recently, I always though the had the best eyes I knew of but he told me he's since had cataract surgery. When I was at Benning we did a lot rifle and ammo testing such as you described, but it was basic 101 compared to what I learned and did when I went to work at Aberdeen. Which is why I asked who did the testing you described, vis-a-vis amateur or professional. Which is fundamental in evaluating claimed performance vs, valid results, as so often evident in shooting websites. I assume you made the rest in your photos, as it looks rather home-made, but is probably adequate for your use. In another attached pic is a static rest of the type we use at the consulting firm where I work (Part time now.) Speaking of rests, when I was at Aberdeen we used wonderful old rests that had been made by Springfield. I expect there are more of them in storage somewhere and I'd buy one in a hearbeat if I found one. Just as a keepsake.
 

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Offhand,

That rest in my link was one George Tubb had a local machine shop build in the early '60s. A set of blueprints from "The Old Brass Works" was copied then passed on to several folks wanting one. I thought about having one made back in the 80's. A local high power buddy had one made from my blueprints but chose not to. His cost was $1300 and he supplied all the metal purchased at a scrap yard. Instead, I was taught how to shoot bagged rifles slung up in prone to get results virtually equal as those metal monsters would do. Was very pleased with the results.

20 shots from a scoped.308 Win Palma rifle at 800 yards.
20at800-1.jpg

Two 15-shot groups from a .30-338 Win Mag at 1000 yards. One group with 190 gr. HPMK's over 65 grains of IMR4350 in once-fired neck-turned FL sized cases and the other with 200 gr. HMKS over 64 grains in new unprepped cases. Both groups about 4.5". Loads were shot alternately, 190 first then a 200 shot so I could get an idea of how each would perform over 30 shots. The group shot with 200's centered almost 3" below the 190's group.
30at1000-1.jpg

As they all have a 3-point guide for the cradle's system's three fixed round rods in fixed V blocks, they are more repeatable than male-female sliding tubes on round bars. And the cradle/rifle axis moves back and up so the rifle barrel whips in the vertices axis just like it does fired from ones shoulder.

A similar one was built for the USN Small Arms Match Conditioning Unit in San Diego. John "Bo" Clerke made it for them if I remember correctly. Those 7.62 NATO Garands SAMCU rebuilt shot sub MOA at 300 yards clamped in it. I've known Bo since the '60's and shot many matches with him. His rear sights then were the best money could buy until Allen Warner made his rear sights. Bo Clerke made all 20 barrels for the USN's M16 rifles used in their debut as a service rifles in the 1971 Nat'l DCM Matches. Also made bases to mount Redfield Int'l rear sights on them.
 
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raise your hand if you use a precision rifle rest to hunt with. Aint to many competitive rifle shooters here. Id guess 99 percent hunters and if you can shoot so well that you can see an increase in accuracy in the deer field I applaud you!! Either caliber in a GOOD sporter weight rifle will shoot a 5 shot sub moa group with a load it likes. Like I said previously, ive had a pretty good number of both and never seen one shine over the other on the bench using good old fashion bags. Illl even lump the various 300 mags into that statement. Two most accurate sporter weight .30 cal guns Ive owned are a couple 700s. One in 300 H&H and one in 06 and the 06 would win even if I said out of all the sporter weight guns ive owned of ANY caliber. So unless your using some high tech rest, are a bench rest shooter or own a big dollar custom gun you aren't going to see quat difference between them. Just to many variables in an over the counter rifle. At least in the hands of 99 percent of us and half the one percent are just keyboard commandos. Don't think the original poster was referring to 1000 yard bench shooting anyway.
 
Of the two, I`d go with the 06. For me it`s more of a personal choice. Had a 308.

Just wasn`t my cup of tea.


Plus, many more different selections as far as grain weight goes.
 
Sav. 250, both cartridges can handle all bullet weights available in 30 caliber. .308's have done very well in long range matches shooting 250-gr. Sierra HPMK bullets through 1:8 twist barrels leaving at 2150 fps. Those 250's buck the wind about 10% better than 190's leaving at 2600 fps from .308 Win's. 'Twas a favorite of David Tubb for a while.
 
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