30-30 lever action vs. .357 lever action
- Thread starter NWAttorney
- Start date
- Status
mustanger98
Member
I haven't read the rest of the thread yet, but here's my thoughts.
Okay, compare a .308"dia. 150gr softpoint running 2200-2400fps with a .357"dia. 158gr HP/XTP running 1500fps from 20" barrels... no, they're not the same, but the 158gr .357 still has killing power at 150yds.
Now, compare that same .308"dia. 150gr with a .357"dia. 180gr HP/XTP running nearly 1800fps. Sight both in to 100yds. The .30-30 hitting +4" is still going to reach out to 200 dead on and on to 300yds with about 7" drop, IIRC. This 180gr .357 is probably going to only be good to about 150yds and you better know the holdover.
The cost of .30-30 ain't that bad... $10-12/20 most places I see it. Unless you go with that newfangled stuff Hornady just brought out... it costs twice that. Ever thought about handloading? Hey, same goes for .357mag... it's been a while since I've bought any factory-loaded .357 ammo 'cause all mine's reloads.
Okay, compare a .308"dia. 150gr softpoint running 2200-2400fps with a .357"dia. 158gr HP/XTP running 1500fps from 20" barrels... no, they're not the same, but the 158gr .357 still has killing power at 150yds.
Now, compare that same .308"dia. 150gr with a .357"dia. 180gr HP/XTP running nearly 1800fps. Sight both in to 100yds. The .30-30 hitting +4" is still going to reach out to 200 dead on and on to 300yds with about 7" drop, IIRC. This 180gr .357 is probably going to only be good to about 150yds and you better know the holdover.
The cost of .30-30 ain't that bad... $10-12/20 most places I see it. Unless you go with that newfangled stuff Hornady just brought out... it costs twice that. Ever thought about handloading? Hey, same goes for .357mag... it's been a while since I've bought any factory-loaded .357 ammo 'cause all mine's reloads.
Diamondback
Member
Bottom line....if you can take deer size game at 40-60 yards with a "good" .357 round in a revolver...you certainly can take the same at 100 yards with with a carbine. (And if you know your holdover, that distance can be extended just a bit more). You might not want to....but that's another story. I am certain that no one here is a "caliber Nazi."
I do think a 30-30 is a better choice for the "one rifle guy" who wants something with versatility for hunting. It's not inconceivable that one would have to "pass" on some shots ( and some species of game ! ) with a .357 carbine, that would otherwise be prudent with the 30-30. But there are some folks that hunt deer every year with only a handgun...and manage to fill the freezer with meat. To each his own.
- regards
I do think a 30-30 is a better choice for the "one rifle guy" who wants something with versatility for hunting. It's not inconceivable that one would have to "pass" on some shots ( and some species of game ! ) with a .357 carbine, that would otherwise be prudent with the 30-30. But there are some folks that hunt deer every year with only a handgun...and manage to fill the freezer with meat. To each his own.
- regards
Well, in this case it is appropriate because the 30-30 is underloaded relative to the potential of the case, for historical reasons. I have always wondered why the 30-30 is not more powerful. But, the fact is that it is some pistol cartridges are more powerful from a rifle than the 30-30. I get 1650 fps in a 335 grain load from my .45 LC Trapper, which is absolutely more powerful than any 30-30.
However, I do agree that the 30-30 is a great 'one rifle' to have. I love mine and wouldn't give it up for the world.
Diamondback
Member
Yes....this is why the 30-30 will never die. It's pretty versatile for the hunter that keeps in mind it's "range capabilities". And who doesn't like a lever gun.......maybe some of the SKS guys ?
- regards
Essex County
Member
- Joined
- Mar 9, 2005
- Messages
- 1,247
Everyone should have a 30-30......
It's a basic requirement. I've owned both winchester and Marlin 30-30's. I also had a Winchester AE in .357. Loved the concept, but not the gun so I traded it off. Presently looking for a Marlin 1894C. The 30-30 and the .357 aren't really competing as deer rifles. The nod goes to the 30-30 for 100 yard plus performance.......Essex
It's a basic requirement. I've owned both winchester and Marlin 30-30's. I also had a Winchester AE in .357. Loved the concept, but not the gun so I traded it off. Presently looking for a Marlin 1894C. The 30-30 and the .357 aren't really competing as deer rifles. The nod goes to the 30-30 for 100 yard plus performance.......Essex
Vern Humphrey
Member
And that's the bottom line. While you can do some impressive things in the way of loading up the .357, the .30-30 will always outclass the .357 as a rifle cartridge, given equal engineering and black magic in the loads. I'm anxiously awaiting Hornady making the LeveRevolution bullets available to handloaders.
mustanger98
Member
I'm waiting to see what they're gonna cost as compared to Hornady's other .308"dia. 150-165grainers. I'd bet they're gonna be expensive, but it'll be interesting.
Vern Humphrey
Member
That's why I plan on handloading them.
mustanger98
Member
Yeah, I know. I'm just wondering what the price difference will be comparing LeverEvolution component bullets with an A-Max or V-Max or just a regular softpoint spitzer.
Vern Humphrey
Member
Well, I've killed a lot of deer with old-fashioned softpoints in .30-30, and if they want too much for them, I think I may give them a pass.
But I hope they'll be reasonable -- after all, all they are is a polymer-tip and shouldn't cost any more than comparable bullets.
But I hope they'll be reasonable -- after all, all they are is a polymer-tip and shouldn't cost any more than comparable bullets.
For hunting only the 30-30 is better.
But I have had two of them and currently don't have any. I just bought a .357 Marlin cowboy and it has already been shot about twice as much as both of the 30-30's combined. It is just way more fun to shoot and a whole lot cheaper.
Even with reloading I can shoot .38 Specials with about 5 grains of powder vs something like 35 (guessing since I have never loaded 30-30).
With 7000 grains to a pound I am getting over 1K rounds of .38 Special for the $18 pound of powder. Way less with 30-30.
The recoil is also way lighter and you can almost shoot it without earplugs. And small game hunting is possible with .38 Spl loads.
If I want to step it up I can get it powerful enough that defensive uses and hunting game up to whitetails is still a possibility.
And if you are shooting very far you would be better served with something else over either of them anyway.
I would say .357 all the way.
But I have had two of them and currently don't have any. I just bought a .357 Marlin cowboy and it has already been shot about twice as much as both of the 30-30's combined. It is just way more fun to shoot and a whole lot cheaper.
Even with reloading I can shoot .38 Specials with about 5 grains of powder vs something like 35 (guessing since I have never loaded 30-30).
With 7000 grains to a pound I am getting over 1K rounds of .38 Special for the $18 pound of powder. Way less with 30-30.
The recoil is also way lighter and you can almost shoot it without earplugs. And small game hunting is possible with .38 Spl loads.
If I want to step it up I can get it powerful enough that defensive uses and hunting game up to whitetails is still a possibility.
And if you are shooting very far you would be better served with something else over either of them anyway.
I would say .357 all the way.
ArfinGreebly
Moderator Emeritus
Carbine Smackdown
Let us begin with the clear understanding that the .30-30 will, under most circumstances, outperform the .357 carbine.
You can contrive scenarios and loads where the .357 will compete favorably with the .30-30, but that's something my boss used to call "a science project" -- the expenditure of time and effort to prove a point -- but in general use the .30-30 will deliver more punch more effectively at longer ranges.
Just so we're clear on that.
However.
Within limits, the .357 cartridge has been shown to be big-game capable at ranges below a hundred yards.
Some of you will remember my bison post where a buffalo was taken with a .357 revolver at 70 yards.
Dan Wesson went across the country taking, with a .357 revolver, a variety of game normally hunted with a rifle. The round, within its limits, will get the job done. Within its limits.
Under a hundred yards, the .357 is a great general purpose cartridge. It's inexpensive to shoot and good for varmints of all kinds. It can even be used out to 150 yards, but there are caveats as already mentioned in other posts.
Which brings us back to line 1 of this post: Let us begin with the clear understanding that the .30-30 will, under most circumstances, outperform the .357 carbine.
Finally, just a note for the man planning to spend a weekend doing serious plinking with his .30-30: get a GOOD shoulder pad or butt pad. The .30-30 may be "mild" compared to other big game rounds, but you can't blow through three or four boxes of ammo and walk away unscathed.
Without proper padding you'll be nursing that shoulder for days.
Let us begin with the clear understanding that the .30-30 will, under most circumstances, outperform the .357 carbine.
You can contrive scenarios and loads where the .357 will compete favorably with the .30-30, but that's something my boss used to call "a science project" -- the expenditure of time and effort to prove a point -- but in general use the .30-30 will deliver more punch more effectively at longer ranges.
Just so we're clear on that.
However.
Within limits, the .357 cartridge has been shown to be big-game capable at ranges below a hundred yards.
Some of you will remember my bison post where a buffalo was taken with a .357 revolver at 70 yards.
Dan Wesson went across the country taking, with a .357 revolver, a variety of game normally hunted with a rifle. The round, within its limits, will get the job done. Within its limits.
Under a hundred yards, the .357 is a great general purpose cartridge. It's inexpensive to shoot and good for varmints of all kinds. It can even be used out to 150 yards, but there are caveats as already mentioned in other posts.
Which brings us back to line 1 of this post: Let us begin with the clear understanding that the .30-30 will, under most circumstances, outperform the .357 carbine.
Finally, just a note for the man planning to spend a weekend doing serious plinking with his .30-30: get a GOOD shoulder pad or butt pad. The .30-30 may be "mild" compared to other big game rounds, but you can't blow through three or four boxes of ammo and walk away unscathed.
Without proper padding you'll be nursing that shoulder for days.
skeeter1
Member
I have a Marlin 1894C in .357 Magnum, and AFAIC, it's only a 100yd rifle. It's a fun rifle to shoot, but the sectional density of the .357 is nowhere near the .30-30. Then again, leverguns aren't known for their prowess at long ranges. That's what bolt actions are for.
mustanger98
Member
Okay, for "serious plinking" you don't use off-the-shelf hunting ammo. Well, some guys might, but I wouldn't. Plinking and target competition (I've done both with mine) are done with a cast lead bullet which is sometimes gas-checked and only runs about 1500-1800fps. My experience is whether the hunting ammo was store-bought or handloaded, the cast lead loads were/are all milder. They just have a higher trajectory than the hunting loads.
Vern Humphrey
Member
Using full power loads in the .30-30 kinda defeats the propose of plinking.
After some conversation with Ed Harris about "The Load" -- which is a cast bullet load he developed for .30 caliber cartridges in the .308 - .30-06 class -- we came up with 7.6 grains of Red Dot behind a 160 to 180 grain cast bullet in the .30-30.
After some conversation with Ed Harris about "The Load" -- which is a cast bullet load he developed for .30 caliber cartridges in the .308 - .30-06 class -- we came up with 7.6 grains of Red Dot behind a 160 to 180 grain cast bullet in the .30-30.
mustanger98
Member
Did ya'll look at using Unique? Reason I ask is my Daddy loads 7-7.5grs of Unique under a 255gr cast lead slug for his Marlin 1894 in .45Colt, plus, the prez of the gun club loads 12grs of Unique under a 405gr Laser-Cast in his .45-70. I got to thinking about that and loaded 7-8grs of Unique under a 170gr gas-checked Laser-Cast in my .30-30. I thought about stepping it up a couple of grains since it seemed kinda anemic. But then I've got some loads I need to test... those same 170grainers loaded without gas checks with 7grs and some gas checked and loaded over IMR4064.
Vern Humphrey
Member
We didn't try Unique. Ed developed "The Load" (13.0 grains of Red Dot in .308 to .30-06 cases and any reasonable bullet) and I just piggy-backed on it. It works so well (as does the .30-30 version with 7.6 grains of Red Dot) that I decided "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" and left it at that.
There are a few points that favor the 357, that no one has brought up yet.
First, bullet diameter kills, or at least it is a huge aid in killing, so never mind that Buffalo Bore 357 will equall 30-30 energys out of a carbine, the greater bullet diameter of the 357 (dont need much sectional density for white tails) really hammers deer. The 44 mag. from a carbine is even more amazing.
Second, I know that this is not a big plus for a hunting rifle, but the 357 carbine will hold more than twice as much ammo as a 30-30 when equal length mag. tubes are used. So if your hunting rifle doubles as a defensive weapon, the 357 is a better choice than the 30-30. Never mind that the 357 will recoil less than the 30-30, even with loads that generate the same energies, because the ejecta (powder charge weight) with the 357 will be much lighter than the 30-30.
Third, in the tiny Malrin 1894 action, the 357 will be smaller and handier than the 30-30.
The 357 from a little lever gun makes a fearsome defensive weapon.
First, bullet diameter kills, or at least it is a huge aid in killing, so never mind that Buffalo Bore 357 will equall 30-30 energys out of a carbine, the greater bullet diameter of the 357 (dont need much sectional density for white tails) really hammers deer. The 44 mag. from a carbine is even more amazing.
Second, I know that this is not a big plus for a hunting rifle, but the 357 carbine will hold more than twice as much ammo as a 30-30 when equal length mag. tubes are used. So if your hunting rifle doubles as a defensive weapon, the 357 is a better choice than the 30-30. Never mind that the 357 will recoil less than the 30-30, even with loads that generate the same energies, because the ejecta (powder charge weight) with the 357 will be much lighter than the 30-30.
Third, in the tiny Malrin 1894 action, the 357 will be smaller and handier than the 30-30.
The 357 from a little lever gun makes a fearsome defensive weapon.
Charshooter
Member
The 30-30 is far superior to the 357 on deer size game! One can take a deer with a good flat point 158 grain or better yet, a 180-grain, but the shot should be within 75 yards. The 44 magnum in a rifle will give you more insurance and will kill effectively out to 125 yards with well-placed shots. As funny as it seems today, the 30-30 will kill deer well out to 200 yards. Past that distance, a 308, or any 308 based cartridge, or 7mm Mauser case will do fine at most distance 95 percent of deer are taken. On longer shots, a 270 or 25-06 will work well, as well as a 30-06 with proper bullets.
Fifty years of deer hunting has illumined this for me. I still prefer the 30-30 here in the Ozarks, but in heavy brush country, the 44 magnum in a rifle is great and for the real heavy cover close up, the 44 revolver is top notch.
Now, there are hunters who know what they are doing who kill deer with a 357 revolver, therefore the 357 rifle would work, but please lets not make it into what it is not!
Fifty years of deer hunting has illumined this for me. I still prefer the 30-30 here in the Ozarks, but in heavy brush country, the 44 magnum in a rifle is great and for the real heavy cover close up, the 44 revolver is top notch.
Now, there are hunters who know what they are doing who kill deer with a 357 revolver, therefore the 357 rifle would work, but please lets not make it into what it is not!
I see lots of comments in this thread from guys who obviously know their stuff. I think it's been well established that a .357 Mag or .44 Mag lever action carbine is a useful and versatile package, lots of fun to shoot, economical, and has plenty of killing power within its effective range.
I think it has also been pretty well established that the .30-30 is a more effective cartridge on big game out beyond distances that the handgun cartridges are suitable for. It can also be used, if necessary, as a defensive weapon -- although defensive use of a rifle cartridge may be questionable in most scenarios. The .30-30 is also fun to shoot (at least for me) and not overly expensive as compared to other hunting cartridges.
Bottom line: either pick the one that best fits your needs, or get both and cover all the bases.
I think it has also been pretty well established that the .30-30 is a more effective cartridge on big game out beyond distances that the handgun cartridges are suitable for. It can also be used, if necessary, as a defensive weapon -- although defensive use of a rifle cartridge may be questionable in most scenarios. The .30-30 is also fun to shoot (at least for me) and not overly expensive as compared to other hunting cartridges.
Bottom line: either pick the one that best fits your needs, or get both and cover all the bases.
sansone
Member
buy both!
El Hombre
Member
If only someone (factory) would load the 357 Maximum (Super Mag) in a lever action.
That would put a whole other twist on the debate!
That would put a whole other twist on the debate!
- Status