30-30 vs 12 Ga. (Slug)

[Palladan44]

The 2 most common long guns you might find (possibly still to this day) here in the United States that have what you can still call "High Power" are probably the above mentioned. There were more model 94s made than there are persons residing in my state currently, and that's just Winchester model 94s (ok, some were in a couple other calibers, but not many)

My 2 examples pictured on top came from the earlier part of the 20th Century and the 2 on the bottom, the latter.
I think WE ALL know what we would choose for any respective hunting task at hand, whether it be for a performance advantage or having to abide by rules and regulations. The case is at rest for Hunting, there is no debate there. (let me note that I do not or never have hunted with any shotguns with the above pictured 18.5" barrels)

...Now how about for defensive purposes?
For the sake of apples to apples, let's just say we have my model 94 (take your pick) loaded with 7 rounds of Remington (Green Box) Core Lokt 170gr. Soft points.
...Let's go ahead and grab now, the 870 and load it up with 7 rounds of Remington (Green Box) Slugger 2- 3/4" 1oz rifled slugs..

Let's go ahead and discuss where each of these would excel and have an advantage over another in any given situation where one would need to use the weapons to protect their life in a given situation.

I'm personally on the fence about what I would choose if I had to pick between these 2 extremely common firearms loaded with the most common ammunition youre almost certain to be able to find at your local Wal Mart, hardware store, or garage sale.

Yes, the most common 12 Gauge shotgun you'd stumble upon would likely have a longer barrel, yes indeed... But for the sake of this discussion, let's say you were given no choice but to hacksaw that sucker down to 18.5" just in case you needed to pack it in your Horse scabbard that your '94 also fits in.......

 

[Roverguy]

Great guns!

I’d go with the 870 and #4 buck myself. Both 12 ga slugs and 170 grs Corelockts are going through sheetrock like a hot knife through butter, so not ideal for home defense, albeit my opinion.

 

[Palladan44]

Here's my first pick in any given domain:

Accuracy- 30-30

Recoil (least)- 30-30

Range- 30-30

Weight when loaded (lighter)- 30-30

Faster Shooting- 12Ga.

Staying on target between shots- 12 Ga

Penetration (most) 30-30

Over Penetration (least) 12 Ga.

Velocity- 30-30

Kinetic Energy- Probably Similar due to short barrel on 12 ga. But this is debatable.

 

[Old Hobo]

Where I'm from (up in the Applchn Mountains), deer, bear, and wild hawgs are taken with 30-30s and .35 Rem lever actions.

Shotgun slugs are often used in states where the land is flat -- i.e. not my turf. Yet, I do have a Rem 870, one of its barrels being rifled with rifle sights. I was dumbfounded as to how accurate that puppy is with sabot slugs -- 3" or less 5-shot group at 200 yards-ish (paced distance; was up on the side of a mountain where a semi-level area was available to sight-in; rare that!).

A .35 Rem cartridge (in a Marlin lever) using 200 or 220 gr bullets with drop an animal where it stands. Known kith and kin who hunted with the .35 Rem in a lever rifle. Understand that we're talking under 250 yards, of course. Up in the mountains, there's RARELY a long shot.

======================

 

[jmr40]

The 30-30 and model 94 had been obsolete 4-5 years before it was introduced. There were several cartridges that are much better and were introduced earlier that actually have taken every game animal on the planet. While it is probably accurate to say that the 30-30 has taken more game than any other cartridge in the USA, it is also probably accurate to say it has wounded more game that got away than any other cartridge. That said, a 30-30 outperforms the 35 Rem on game.

But for most big game hunting applications I'd choose a lever action in 30-30 over a shotgun with slugs or buckshot. I wouldn't choose any lever gun for defensive purposes for the same reasons the military rejected the idea over 100 years ago. For that I'd choose a short-barreled shotgun between those 2.

There were more model 94s made than there are persons residing in my state currently,

There have been twice as many AR's made than Winchester and Marlin 30-30's combined. And the 30-30 had a 100 year head start.

 

[Coyote3855]

"Most people don't really want the truth. They just want constant reassurance that what they believe is the truth."

Over seven million Winchester 1894/94 owners probably disagree with your premise those firearms are obsolete.

Do you have a source for the number of game animals wounded and not retrieved when hit with a .30-30? Or evidence that the .30-30 outperforms the .35 Remington?

While not my first choice, I would be comfortable using my Marlin 1894 in .44 Magnum or either of my rifles in .30-30 in defensive situations. I am not expecting a zombie horde or the Spanish Inquisition.

 

[GooseGestapo]

The 30-30 and model 94 had been obsolete 4-5 years before it was introduced. There were several cartridges that are much better and were introduced earlier that actually have taken every game animal on the planet. While it is probably accurate to say that the 30-30 has taken more game than any other cartridge in the USA, it is also probably accurate to say it has wounded more game that got away than any other cartridge. That said, a 30-30 outperforms the 35 Rem on game.

But for most big game hunting applications I'd choose a lever action in 30-30 over a shotgun with slugs or buckshot. I wouldn't choose any lever gun for defensive purposes for the same reasons the military rejected the idea over 100 years ago. For that I'd choose a short-barreled shotgun between those 2.



There have been twice as many AR's made than Winchester and Marlin 30-30's combined. And the 30-30 had a 100 year head start.

I agree with everything you said EXCEPT that the .30/30 is better than the .35Rem. I’ve taken dozens of deer with both. I much prefer the. 35Rem.

I reload and cast my own bullets. My loads exceed factory loads in both cartridges, but more so with the .35. A 200gr Remington CorLokt or a 200gr Sierra ProHunter at 2,250fps is big medicine on deer and wild hogs.
Better yet, my RCBS 200gr RFN-GC (218gr) at 2,050fps is awesome. Of several deer and a pig I’ve shot with them, I haven’t recovered a bullet yet.

 

[Armored farmer]

For defense it is always the 12ga for me .

 

[bearcreek]

Do you have a source for the number of game animals wounded and not retrieved when hit with a .30-30?

Probably the same source that says how many animals have been killed and retrieved when hit with one. There isn't a conclusive source for either of those theories. It's all conjecture and opinion.

 

[jmorris]

The 30-30 and model 94 had been obsolete 4-5 years before it was introduced.

but still better than a number of new choices we have today...129 years later.

 

[Elkins45]

There’s good reason to believe that many game animals have been wounded and lost with a 30-30, but that’s not the fault of the cartridge. The east is full of guys who shoot a couple of practice rounds at most every deer season, then head afield and start winging shots at running game, or attempt wobbly standing shots at too far distances. Many of those guys are armed with 30-30 rifles. It would be just as bad if they were hunting with a 50 BMG. In other words it’s not the fault of the cartridge itself.

 

[MacAR]

For any defensive situation, I'd prefer the 12 gauge stoked with #4 buck. For everything (and I do mean everything) else, the 30 WCF is the clear winner of the two.

Mac

 

[Gun-Reck]

"There's more than one way to skin a cat - and the cat won't like any of'em."

 

[codytrucker]

Between Winchester , Marlin , savage and various others there have been north of 15 million 30-30 rifles made . Probably twice as many as rifles chambered in 30-06 , including the several million military rifles the '06 was produced in ! 1895 was a heck of a year for innovation , with the Winchester 94 and 95 models , Savage 95(99) and Marlins model 93 all taking the new , higher pressure smokeless rounds in sporting calibers . The 30-30 benefited from good bullets that worked in its velocity range from the start . If success rates where only 50-50 , I don't think it would of been near so popular .

The Winchester came out on top because of its better handling , availability and affordability . The model 95 Winchester and savage in 30-40 could of/should have won out , but the 30-40 with it's 220 grain roundnose didn't kill any better ,or at longer range , and kicked a lot harder .Maybe if someone had thought to come out with a 165 grain spirepoint things would of been different , but soft point bullets that held up to higher velocity where a ways off yet . Not sure how you figure it was obsolete when introduced , the first bolt action American rifles made for the civilian market where 25 years off , and didn't become major players until after WW2 .

Personally , I live in open country and would take a 30-30 over a shotgun hands down . With a rifle I would expect to be able to put up hundreds of pounds of meat for the cost of a box of ammo , with a shotgun I'd be better off to spend the money on rice and beans .

 

[d2wing]

I have hunted deer with both. Hands down the 30-30 is far superior for that. 12 gauge which I hunt with several times a week is the best for birds of any kind and many prefer it with shot for small game. I generally use a .22 for that. For defense in a building, I would prefer a 12 gauge with buckshot, maybe slugs. Outdoors the 30-30 is much better for defense. I have both. A 30-30 with expanding bullets is much more effective for killing anything, is far more accurate and has much more range. I have seen too many deer wounded and lost or having a long difficult track with shotguns in party hunts. I have never lost one shot with a rifle. Funny but a shotgun requires better shot placement because of less tissue damage but is the least capable of almost any weapon for precise shot placement.
In my opinion, nothing better than a 94 in 30-30 for sneaking through the woods. It will never be obsolete and never was.

 

[1KPerDay]

I am not expecting a zombie horde or the Spanish Inquisition.

No one expects the Spanish Inquisition

 

[v8stang289]

I am not expecting a zombie horde or the Spanish Inquisition.

Nobody ever expects the Spanish Inquisition

1KPerDay beat me to it, lol

 

[Gun-Reck]

No one expects the Spanish Inquisition

Just a train ride, followed by a quick shower to freshen up.

 

[ms6852]

I'm on the fence on this, but if I had to really choose I would choose the 30-30 simply because I have more experience with this rifle and I know how far I can shoot with it and hit consistently and for close in shots I cans go Lucas McCain at 25 yards on milk jugs. Not that experienced with a shotgun.

 

[entropy]

That Model 10 is not a common shotgun.........

For defense it is always the 12ga for me .

Me also, though it is the newer version of the top one......an Ithaca 37.

 

[tws3b2]

Pull the trigger on either one and you can expect the exact same results. If you can. They can.

 

[NIGHTLORD40K]

For any defensive situation, I'd prefer the 12 gauge stoked with #4 buck. For everything (and I do mean everything) else, the 30 WCF is the clear winner of the two.

Mac

12 Gauge wins here just because it's actually available.

Today, I can walk into any local store that sells ammo and find 12 Gauge. No local store has .30-30 on the shelf, except (occasionally) Walmart.

To be fair, there's not that much to hunt in these parts with a rifle except hogs and most folks use an AR of some flavor just because of the price/availability.

.30-30 is in a death spiral here- no one buys it because it's too rare/expensive and no store stocks it because no one is buying it.

 

[NIGHTLORD40K]

That Model 10 is not a common shotgun.........



Me also, though it is the newer version of the top one......an Ithaca 37.

I did love my Model 10- but it most certainly WILL slam-fire if the trigger is pulled before the bolt is in battery. Caution is advised.

 

[Palladan44]

I did love my Model 10- but it most certainly WILL slam-fire if the trigger is pulled before the bolt is in battery. Caution is advised.

I didn't know this, thanks for the safety tip.

That Model 10 is not a common shotgun.........



Me also, though it is the newer version of the top one......an Ithaca 37.

What I meant was just 12Ga pump shotguns in generally speaking.

 

[NIGHTLORD40K]

I didn't know this, thanks for the safety tip.

What I meant was just 12Ga pump shotguns in generally speaking.

Sure woke me right up when I discovered it! Fortunately, the bore was pointing downrange.......
Lots of old pump shotguns will do this, not just the M10, so it was at least as safe as it's contemporaries and better than some- one of John Pedersen's designs.