30-30 vs 308 for deer

[matt35750]

The 308 has more power then then 30-30 but they use the same grain bullet. So how come all the youtube videos I have seen of deer getting shot with a 30-30 they almost always drop on the spot like they got hit by lighting, but the 308 videos they usually run 30 feet or more before they drop?


Here are some examples:

30-30:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V3aeKLn2oy8

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zvtV1bjAOaY

308:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eSbuzTHZgFc

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2BbPQpBHcOw

 

[eastbank]

not always with either, on the shows you only see what they want to show you. a solid hit with either will kill deer. for me the main difference is a flatter shooting bullet due to the speed that lets you shoot farther out with less hold over. eastbank.

 

[matt35750]

not always with either, on the shows you only see what they want to show you. a solid hit with either will kill deer. for me the main difference is a flatter shooting bullet due to the speed that lets you shoot farther out with less hold over. eastbank.

I just added some youtube links as examples of what I mean.

 

[Davek1977]

TV shows and youtibe clips aren't necessarily representative of the real world. Either round will kill a deer as dead as dead gets, but the .308 has the advantage of flatter trajectory, making hits beyond 200 yards considerably easier. A bullet in the vitals from either one will kill deer....but expecting a deer to drop on the spot, regardless of caliber, is unrealistic, and no, the 30-30 isnt somehow magical in that it has less power but greater knockdown ability. While there are shots that offer better chances at a deer dropping on the spot, that is more a function of bullet placement than caliber. Bambi isn't going to notice if that that .30 caliber bullet was traveling 2200 fps when it pierced his heart or if it was going 2500 fps...if you put the bullet where it belongs, either will kill deer.....the .308 just makes it easier at longer distances for most people. Youtube clips show what the person wanted you to see, and not necessarily what happens usually in the field. As you gain experience in deer hunting, you'll see what I mean....reality isn't often reflected in 30 seconds of video

 

[KY Sparky]

I agree with what everyone else has said so far. TV/Youtube doesn't always tell the whole story. I have harvested more deer than I can remember with a 30-30 and many of those have been bang-flops. However, I have shot some in the heart, lungs, etc than have run 50 yards or so. All of these deer were shot 100 yds or closer. It depends on where the deer is hit. The best way to drop a deer is to hit it somewhere in the central nervous system. Either rifle will drop a deer in its tracks, it's all about shot placement. FWIW I prefer the LeverRevolution loads from Hornady it has performed the best out of my Marlin 30AW.

 

[Davek1977]

While I certainly enjoy youtube for what it is, you cannot take 2-4 random clips posted to the site on any gven subject and come to any sort of accurate consensus. The videos shared tell us absolutely nothing that can help determine as to why the .308 deer ran and the 30-30 deer dropped. We know nothing of ammo used, shot placement, yardage, etc. All of this impacts the end result. I've shot close to 30 deer in my life, and I've seen a variety of reactions to being shot, from literally being dead before hitting the ground, to running hundreds of yards.....all with a bullet in the vitals. I've dropped deer in their tracks with a 64 gr .223, and I've had to track deer I've nailed with a 160 grn Partition out of my 7mm Mag. While deer tend to react in a similiarly when hit in the same place, two deer can be shot with identical loads, from identical ranges, and react wholly differently.

 

[matt35750]

I agree with what everyone else has said so far. TV/Youtube doesn't always tell the whole story. I have harvested more deer than I can remember with a 30-30 and many of those have been bang-flops. However, I have shot some in the heart, lungs, etc than have run 50 yards or so. All of these deer were shot 100 yds or closer. It depends on where the deer is hit. The best way to drop a deer is to hit it somewhere in the central nervous system. Either rifle will drop a deer in its tracks, it's all about shot placement. FWIW I prefer the LeverRevolution loads from Hornady it has performed the best out of my Marlin 30AW.

What has been your experience shooting deer with a 308? I also wonder although 30-30 and 308 use the same grain bullet, they are of a very different shape with the 30-30 having a much flatter head, and I wonder if that allows for better expansion?

 

[matt35750]

While I certainly enjoy youtube for what it is, you cannot take 2-4 random clips posted to the site on any gven subject and come to any sort of accurate consensus. The videos shared tell us absolutely nothing that can help determine as to why the .308 deer ran and the 30-30 deer dropped. We know nothing of ammo used, shot placement, yardage, etc. All of this impacts the end result. I've shot close to 30 deer in my life, and I've seen a variety of reactions to being shot, from literally being dead before hitting the ground, to running hundreds of yards.....all with a bullet in the vitals. I've dropped deer in their tracks with a 64 gr .223, and I've had to track deer I've nailed with a 160 grn Partition out of my 7mm Mag. While deer tend to react in a similiarly when hit in the same place, two deer can be shot with identical loads, from identical ranges, and react wholly differently.

In alot of those videos they say the yardage and ammo type.

 

[Davek1977]

Regardless, even knowing that, as I've stated....deer can react a variety of ways to similiar hits. In the real world, a deer with a 30 caliber bullet in its vitals is going to die, regardless if shot from a 308 or a 30-30. Within 200 yards, theres not a deer on earth thats going to know the difference

 

[HexHead]

I'm guessing the flat nose .30-30 has more of a stun effect.

 

[jmr40]

It is all about bullet construction. While 30-30 and 308 use equal diameter bullets and similar weights they are constructed much differently. A 150 gr 30-30 bullet is designed to leave the muzzle at around 2000 fps, hit deer size game at around 50-150 yards and expand at those speeds. No matter which manufacturer made the 30-30 bullet it is designed to work well within a quite narrow design parameter. Used within that range it works very well. Use it outside it's design limits and you'll see poor results.

A 308 could fire the same bullet weight at 2800-3000 fps. That same bullet could be loaded in one of the 300 magnums and be called upon to work at 3500 fps It might be called upon to kill a deer at 70 yards or 700 yards. Or a much larger game animal such as elk out to 500 yards or farther. It is made to work within a much larger design parameter. They generally work very well, but you are much less likely to get the DRT shots. And that isn't a negative.

 

[matt35750]

Regardless, even knowing that, as I've stated....deer can react a variety of ways to similiar hits. In the real world, a deer with a 30 caliber bullet in its vitals is going to die, regardless if shot from a 308 or a 30-30. Within 200 yards, theres not a deer on earth thats going to know the difference

Of course it will die, any deer shot will die eventually, but there are many advantages to a deer dying right where you shot it as opposed to it running off into the brush.

 

[Davek1977]

I realize that....but I'm saying, REALISTICALLY, one is no better than the other, and shot location more than caliber will determine whether or not a deer drops in its tracks, or runs a bit before expiring. A brain (not recommended)neck, spine, or high shoulder shot will result in a deer dropping on the spot more often than not, regardless if its done with a .308...30-30.....45-70.....243.....7mm-08....see what I'm getting at? A heart/lung shot with either a 30-30 or .308 or most any caliber suitable for deer hunting will likely result in a deer that runs a bit before dropping, but is a very high percentage shot as far as being fatal

 

[X-Rap]

30-30 is a real hunters cartridge, you have to get up real close, not shoot them half way across the county.

 

[matt35750]

I realize that....but I'm saying, REALISTICALLY, one is no better than the other, and shot location more than caliber will determine whether or not a deer drops in its tracks, or runs a bit before expiring. A brain (not recommended)neck, spine, or high shoulder shot will result in a deer dropping on the spot more often than not, regardless if its done with a .308...30-30.....45-70.....243.....7mm-08....see what I'm getting at? A heart/lung shot with either a 30-30 or .308 or most any caliber suitable for deer hunting will likely result in a deer that runs a bit before dropping, but is a very high percentage shot as far as being fatal

I couldn't (respectfully) disagree more, I have seen plenty of deer get shot right through the shoulder and run 100-200 yards or more, often into thick brush making tracking difficult.

 

[Panfisher]

JMR40 already mentioned it, even though same diameter and weight that is about where the similarities end. The 150 grain flatnose bullet is a much thinner jacketed bullet with plenty of exposed lead at the tip, it is made to work with the lever action tubular magazine and within the range of .30-30 velocities. One of the very few bullets manufactured for essentially one thing only. It hits, expands rapidly and imparts the majority of its energy inside the deer, often times it will even stay inside just under the skin on the far side of the deer. Of course if you reload you can always buy a .308 and if you know you are going to shoot deer at short range you can load up some .308 150 flat nose bullets, or buy any of a dozen or so other bullets designed to optimize performance at .308 levels. I like exit holes and blood trails, a typical reaction to a well placed shot is the jump/kick, run, begin to wobble and fall over with 25-75 yards, more often than not with a good blood trail that almost anyone could follow. If for some reason you have a need to drop them where they stand, a good, well made bullet and a high shoulder shot will pretty well anchor them there, but nothing is certain as to a deers reaction, sometimes they will just stand there until they bleed out and fall over, other times bolt and run as hard as they can for 10 seconds, but they can sure cover some ground in 10 seconds.

 

[Walkalong]

Hit them right with either one with a good bullet and they will drop. Either caliber is up to the task.

 

[matt35750]

JMR40 already mentioned it, even though same diameter and weight that is about where the similarities end. The 150 grain flatnose bullet is a much thinner jacketed bullet with plenty of exposed lead at the tip, it is made to work with the lever action tubular magazine and within the range of .30-30 velocities. One of the very few bullets manufactured for essentially one thing only. It hits, expands rapidly and imparts the majority of its energy inside the deer, often times it will even stay inside just under the skin on the far side of the deer. Of course if you reload you can always buy a .308 and if you know you are going to shoot deer at short range you can load up some .308 150 flat nose bullets, or buy any of a dozen or so other bullets designed to optimize performance at .308 levels. I like exit holes and blood trails, a typical reaction to a well placed shot is the jump/kick, run, begin to wobble and fall over with 25-75 yards, more often than not with a good blood trail that almost anyone could follow. If for some reason you have a need to drop them where they stand, a good, well made bullet and a high shoulder shot will pretty well anchor them there, but nothing is certain as to a deers reaction, sometimes they will just stand there until they bleed out and fall over, other times bolt and run as hard as they can for 10 seconds, but they can sure cover some ground in 10 seconds.

Are you referring to the regular soft point 30-30 rounds or the 308 bullets handloaded into a 30-30 case as doing the "jump/kick, run, begin to wobble and fall over with 25-75 yards"?

 

[WestKentucky]

To reiterate JMR40 its all about construction. That 30-30 is a big hunk of soft lead designed to mushroom out and stay inside a deer at basically any range. The .308 is designed to hold together but expand at much higher velocities at nearly any range. Given identical situations and the choice of gun the right pick is based solely on range. A deer at 50 yards in the woods gives you a realistic, normal opportunity. A 30-30 will put a bullet in an the deer will fall fairly quick as it mushrooms and does its thing destroying the bits that are vital to life. Same shot with a .308 and the bullet will either tear apart wildly giving uncontrolled results or will poke a Tony hole straight through. Either way that deer is likely running for a few minutes. Now move your shot to a field where the deer is 300 yards away. That 30-30 is dropping fast and will be hard to hit with, and if you do it will have lost so much momentum due to wind resistance that it may not expand. The .308 on the other hand drops only a couple inches, hits hard and the bullet does what it was meant to. 30-30 you have a running deer, .308 you have a deer dropping quickly.

The answer to which is better lies solely in the intended range. Short range go 30-30 maxing out around 150 yards expected shot. For medium and long range go .308 for anything over 100 yards. In between, flip a coin. I have a .270 for fields and a 30-30 for the woods, I generally put both in the truck when I head out and make a decision along the way there.

 

[z7]

My first 11 deer were with a 30-30 using a variety of round nose bullets, not one took a step, but I was shooting just in front is the shoulder at the base of the neck. The shock of the bullet is typically enough to cause a temporary paralysis if you miss the spinal column, and the blood vessels are plentiful.

My 12th deer was a 150" 12 point that I didn't want to screw up so I shot him in the boiler room with a 30-06 and he ran 100 yds. Shot placement is more critical than choice of caliber, 30-30s have killed many deer, so have 308s

 

[WestKentucky]

.308 in a 30-30 isn't smart. Pushing a bullet designed to take game at much higher velocity than your gun produces does great on paper, but inside meat its not predictable or reliable. Its risking putting a .3 inch leak in the heart or lungs and the deer dying 2 counties over hours later in a slow agonizing death. Please, no. If your going to toy around with the 30-30 try jhp made for 30 carbine. You CAN get those up to speed and get good results.

 

[dprice3844444]

different bullet construction.30-30 is designed to expand at a slower bullet speed.each mfg is different

 

[Sav .250]

What`s your point? The 30-30 is the deadlier of the two?

 

[matt35750]

Does anyone know of the difference in size between a 30-30 bonded soft point and a 308 bonded soft point or hollow point after going through a gelatin block, which is bigger, or are they about the same?

 

[LocoGringo]

Does anyone know of the difference in size between a 30-30 bonded soft point and a 308 bonded soft point or hollow point after going through a gelatin block, which is bigger, or are they about the same?

At what velocities or distances?

You seem to be rather argumentative against what people are saying and not accepting their experiences. What is your point of this thread? Are you trying to prove that 30-30 is better for deer hunting than .308 with respect to "dead right there" results or are you truly searching for reasons for why you perceive DRT results for 30-30 vs. 308?