30-rd magazines in an unconverted Saiga ?

[MIL-DOT]

So what's the deal here? I thought it was illegal to use magazines of more than 10-rd capacity without legally altering the weapon by adding several US-made parts.
But, I'm seeing 30-rd mags from Surefire and Pro-mag, that are designed to fit factory-original Saigas, that haven't had any other midifications.
Also, (this is the one that really throws me) I was just looking at an ad in a statewide classified site, and a guy selling a stock saiga is including a 30-rd magazine, that comes in packaging that says: "Saiga rifle mag/ 30-rd hi-cap/ E. Euro steel mags modified in USA."
I know lots of folks want their Saigas to be as visually close to an standard AK as possible, and this is part of the incentive to do the conversion, but as i always understood, the primary reason for doing the conversion was to keep the rifle legal, and in conformity to usc922r, which required the substitution of foreign-made parts for US-made parts.
So how are any of these mags legal (especially that converted East Bloc steel 30-rounder) ?

 

[yugorpk]

Its just a magazine. What you do with it is up to you.

Spoiler: Some people believe in civil disobedience of unconstitutional laws. Reference MLK's Letter from Birmingham Jail or some Ghandi crap.

 

[MIL-DOT]

Its just a magazine. What you do with it is up to you.

I'm not clear on what you mean. What I'm wondering is, would a person be in violation of the law by inserting either of these type mags in a un-converted Saiga?

edit: taking into account your spoiler comment (which at first I thought was just a sig line), it sounds like you're saying they're not legal, but screw 'em, who cares. I'm not getting into all that, i'm just wondering if these mags are legal.

 

[yugorpk]

The law says that you need a requisite number of US parts in the rifle as a whole for it to be considered US made . It is up to the user to determine if he is in compliance with the law using the guidelines set forth in 18 USC 922r.
The mags themselves are legal to sell. Its a parts count thing if you are in compliance with 18USC922r.


The ATF claims 18USC922r applies to individuals and not just importers. They have never prosecuted anyone for violations so case law pertaining to 18USC922r is non existent.

 

[Acera]

Making a firearm that is not 922r is a crime, possessing one is not a crime.

Burden of proof is with the state. Could be a really hard case to prove if the accused exercised their 5th amendment rights.



.

 

[SSN Vet]

There are multiple paths to achieve the required parts count to comply with 922R. The conversion is super simple as the Saiga receiver already has the holes punched for the "proper" hand grip placement.

All you need to do is install the following made in USA parts:

G2 trigger group (3 countable parts)
pistol grip (1 countable part)
stock (1 countable part)

That's all there is to 922R compliance. You don't have to put on a muzzle break or change the front hand guard.

But if you want to run high caps, you need to chose a path to modify the mag system.

Some chose to modify just the rifle (open up the hook on mag latch and install a bullet guide) to work with any standard AK mag.

Others modify the standard AK mag itself (grind down the lock tab on the mag) and the rifle (install a bullet guide).

Still others purchase (over priced) made in USA, Saiga compatible high cap mags... though it is questionable whether the mag parts can count towards your total U.S. made components. These mags have the skinny lock tab and a higher step in the front so that a bullet guide is not required.

Bullet guides can either be purchased (see Dinzag) or fabricated from a stub of 3/4" black iron pipe.

Unless you plan on shooting the rifle while wearing a heavy parka, I recommend going with the NATO length stock, which is 1" longer and yields ~14.5" LOP.

Aside from 922R compliance, other reasons for doing the conversion are:
1.) You replace the crappy transfer bar trigger group with a Tapco G2 trigger group (which is really quite good).
2.) You decrease the affective distance between the trigger hand grip and the rifle's COG, making the rifle effectively less front heavy.

Whatever you do, start with a 16" Saiga.

 

[Ignition Override]

Nobody at the range would know the origins/number of various internal components, and nobody should be asking.

As overwhelmed/understaffed as the ATF seems to be with domestic terrorism and documented nut jobs, why worry about it...you are in compliance.

As for the transfer bar in addition to the sear (etc) in an original Saiga .223 or 7.62x39, about how long does a typical gun smith need to do a bit of polishing/reassembly?

 

[MIL-DOT]

There are multiple paths to achieve the required parts count to comply with 922R.........

Dude, I wasn't asking for a lengthy tutorial on converting a Saiga (the information is widely available, and I've done it before.) And I obviously had at least a modicum of understanding about 922r, given the details in my referrences to it.
Which size stock is best, or where to buy the bullet guide is all well and good, but it has nothing to do with the question here.
I'm just wondering how it is legal to "convert" (in essence) a stock saiga to a hi-cap weapon by merely insterting a hi-cap mag, without doing any of the other commonly done part changes? And I would think using a modified east bloc mag would be even less kosher.
So far, it sounds like it ain't ok.

Nobody at the range would know the origins/number of various internal components, and nobody should be asking.

As overwhelmed/understaffed as the ATF seems to be with domestic terrorism and documented nut jobs, why worry about it...

Seriously? THAT'S you're advice? That it ain't nobody's buisness at the range, and the feds are likely busy with more important stuff........so just don't worry about possible federal firearms violations, and do whatever you want? Yeah....ok.

...... They have never prosecuted anyone for violations ..........

You mean..........YET. We can have ZERO faith in them not one day deciding this is a big deal, given all the attention they frequently give to other nit-picky, and unconstitutional rules of theirs. Don't you think?

 

[Inebriated]

It's for people with a compliant rifle who don't want to install a bullet guide or work on the mag catch lever.

 

[SSN Vet]

The answer lies in the facts I presented ... but since you seem to be willing to accept an unsupported answer ...

So far, it sounds like it ain't ok.

The reason it sounds like it ain't OK is because it ain't OK.

Unless you meet the domestic parts count, "military features" such as PG and hi-cap mags are not legal (contrary to popular misconception, the AWB sunset had no affect on 922R).

Possessing a Surefire Saiga mag.... legal.

Selling a Surefire Saiga mag... legal.

Inserting a Surefire Saiga mag into a Saiga Rifle that doesn't meet the domestic parts count ... not legal

Possessing a Surefire Saiga mag + a Saiga Rifle that doesn't meet the domestic parts count = constructive intent = not legal

Are a thousand guys out there doing it... probably.

Are they gambling that the ATF has bigger fish to fry (and most agents probably are clueless about 922R)... most likely

I'm not one of them, however, hence the primmer on converting.

The Izmash built Saiga's are still considered the gold standard for stamped receiver Kolishnakov pattern semi-auto rifles.

 

[akarguy]

Sticking a standard US made AK mag in an unconverted saiga doesn't pass muster with 922. Its not enough US parts. Second, even a standard non US AK mag won't function in a saiga without a bullet guide installed. Supposedly there are 20 and 30rd saiga mags out there that have the same feed ramp as the 10 rounder, but you might as well convert after the cost of procuring those

 

[yugorpk]

You mean..........YET. We can have ZERO faith in them not one day deciding this is a big deal, given all the attention they frequently give to other nit-picky, and unconstitutional rules of theirs. Don't you think?

In 20+ years and with no case law. You are relying on the ATF "interpretation" of the statute. Not tested in court for legality or application in 20+ years of getting widely flaunted. It "could" happen but then the ATF has precedence MAYBE not in their favor. Its easier to ignore for them.

 

[MIL-DOT]

The answer lies in the facts I presented ... but since you seem to be willing to accept an unsupported answer ...



The reason it sounds like it ain't OK is because it ain't OK.

Unless you meet the domestic parts count, "military features" such as PG and hi-cap mags are not legal (contrary to popular misconception, the AWB sunset had no affect on 922R).

Possessing a Surefire Saiga mag.... legal.

Selling a Surefire Saiga mag... legal.

Inserting a Surefire Saiga mag into a Saiga Rifle that doesn't meet the domestic parts count ... not legal

Possessing a Surefire Saiga mag + a Saiga Rifle that doesn't meet the domestic parts count = constructive intent = not legal

Are a thousand guys out there doing it... probably.

Are they gambling that the ATF has bigger fish to fry (and most agents probably are clueless about 922R)... most likely

I'm not one of them, however, hence the primmer on converting.

The Izmash built Saiga's are still considered the gold standard for stamped receiver Kolishnakov pattern semi-auto rifles.

Fair enough, thanks!

 

[MIL-DOT]

In 20+ years and with no case law. You are relying on the ATF "interpretation" of the statute. Not tested in court for legality or application in 20+ years of getting widely flaunted. It "could" happen but then the ATF has precedence MAYBE not in their favor. Its easier to ignore for them.

The whims and interpretations of the ATF, and numerous other regulatory agencies, are routinely enforced as though they were Constitutionally,Congressionally established law. This is a clear and simple reality.
And, in years of following this issue, from many sources, I haven't gotten the impression this has been "widely flaunted", not even close.
The overwhelming number of people I've read weighing in on this issue, choose to err on the side of caution, and obedience to the law (however stupid and un-enforced), hence the volume of information on countless firearm-related sites dedicating to helping people following this edict.
Also, counting on the courts to support The People over the ATF on this issue, is naive in the extreme. I can't believe you even typed that with a straight face.
And, given the degree of attention this issue has gotten in recent years, if some poor slob is raided by the ATF, and they come up with nothing but a foreign-made assault rifle or three, do you REALLY believe that nobody is going to think to suggest they check for 922r compliance ?????

 

[yugorpk]

The whims and interpretations of the ATF, and numerous other regulatory agencies, are routinely enforced as though they were Constitutionally,Congressionally established law. This is a clear and simple reality.
And, in years of following this issue, from many sources, I haven't gotten the impression this has been "widely flaunted", not even close.
The overwhelming number of people I've read weighing in on this issue, choose to err on the side of caution, and obedience to the law (however stupid and un-enforced), hence the volume of information on countless firearm-related sites dedicating to helping people following this edict.
Also, counting on the courts to support The People over the ATF on this issue, is naive in the extreme. I can't believe you even typed that with a straight face.
And, given the degree of attention this issue has gotten in recent years, if some poor slob is raided by the ATF, and they come up with nothing but a foreign-made assault rifle or three, do you REALLY believe that nobody is going to think to suggest they check for 922r compliance ?????

Im a true believer in civil disobedience of unconstitutional laws especially laws with no track record or precedence.

 

[Acera]

if some poor slob is raided by the ATF, and they come up with nothing but a foreign-made assault rifle or three, do you REALLY believe that nobody is going to think to suggest they check for 922r compliance ?????

You still don't get it. Possession is not a crime!!! Having a non complaint rifle is not an issue.

 

[MIL-DOT]

Im a true believer in civil disobedience of unconstitutional laws especially laws with no track record or precedence.

And apparantly also a true believer in recommending it to others, despite any possible catastrophic consequences for them.

 

[MIL-DOT]

You still don't get it.

Apparantly, YOU still don't get it. These traitorous monkeys pretty much do whatever the hell they want. The exact letter,or intent, of the law is irrelevant. If you have a legal semi-auto rifle malfunction and go full-auto at the range, and someone calls the heat, then guess what: You do 10-20 years for possession of a machine gun !!!!! (look it up).
The government (as clearly corrupt and inept as they are) aren't as stupid and oblivious as we all like to think they are. They didn't create these idiotic regs without the intention of making use of them somewhere down the line.
I wouldn't take a whole lot of solace from a photo-copied letter from a lowly branch-chief.

 

[Acera]

Apparantly, YOU still don't get it. These traitorous monkeys pretty much do whatever the hell they want. The exact letter,or intent, of the law is irrelevant. If you have a legal semi-auto rifle malfunction and go full-auto at the range, and someone calls the heat, then guess what: You do 10-20 years for possession of a machine gun !!!!! (look it up).
The government (as clearly corrupt and inept as they are) aren't as stupid and oblivious as we all like to think they are. They didn't create these idiotic regs without the intention of making use of them somewhere down the line.
I wouldn't take a whole lot of solace from a photo-copied letter from a lowly branch-chief.

If you are talking about David Olofson, 99% of the internet discussions don't understand (or more correctly allow themselves to understand) what happened. I will explain that to you if you like. (Hint: the govt. was correct in it's prosecution.)

They do not prosecute you if they don't have a law on the books they think you have broken, irregardless of what the internet says.

By your reasoning, they will take you down and make up a bogus law and bogus reason if they want to. So, what does it matter then???


That lowly letter clearly explains the law, whether you are capable of accepting that is up to you.

Reality is calling, pick up.........................

 

[Robert]

We will never advocate breaking the law on THR. If we do not agree with a law we work with in the legal means to have it abolished. End of story. If that is too difficult to understand then THR might not be the right place for you. Absolutely no more talk of even skirting the law.

 

[Frank Ettin]

...Apparantly, YOU still don't get it. These traitorous monkeys pretty much do whatever the hell they want. The exact letter,or intent, of the law is irrelevant. If you have a legal semi-auto rifle malfunction and go full-auto at the range, and someone calls the heat, then guess what: You do 10-20 years for possession of a machine gun !!!!! (look it up).....

More of the usual sort of ignorant twaddle from someone who doesn't know anything about the Olofson case and can't be bothered or is too lazy to do the necessary research to inform himself of the facts.

Of course it's much easier and more fun to simply imagine the "facts" rather than doing any real research to find out what actually happened.

Olofson was tried, convicted by a jury, and his conviction was affirmed on appeal by the Seventh Circuit (U.S. v. Olofson, 563 F.3d 652 (7th Cir., 2009)). As the Seventh Circuit outlined the facts, based on the evidence put forth at the trial (563 F.3d 652, at 655, emphasis added):

...Robert Kiernicki saw a "for sale" advertisement for a Colt AR-15 rifle that David Olofson had posted at a gas station in New Berlin, Wisconsin. Kiernicki called Olofson at the phone number listed on the ad to inquire about the weapon. Olofson informed Kiernicki that the advertised gun was no longer available but agreed to order and assemble another Colt AR-15 for Kiernicki. In the meantime, Olofson loaned Kiernicki an AR-15 and hundreds of rounds of ammunition on four separate occasions. The selector switch on the borrowed AR-15 had three positions: one marked "fire," one marked "safety," and one that was unmarked. Olofson and Kiernicki discussed the unmarked setting on July 13, 2006, which was the fourth time that Olofson loaned Kiernicki the weapon. Olofson told Kiernicki that putting the selector switch in the unmarked position would enable the AR-15 to fire a three-round burst with a single pull of the trigger, but the gun would then jam.

While at a shooting range that same day, Kiernicki (for the first time since using the gun) switched the AR-15 to the unmarked position and pulled the trigger; three or four rounds were discharged before the gun jammed. Kiernicki fired the weapon in that fashion several times, and each time it jammed after a short burst of three or four rounds....

 

[Acera]

Frank I've seen some people solely blame the selector. The internet blames some sort of super sensitive primer used by the ATF. It was a combination of other M-16 parts in the lower that lead to the problem. Four of the AR-15's fire control components were parts from M-16 rifles:  the trigger, hammer, disconnector, and selector switch.


Good article here on that.
http://caselaw.findlaw.com/us-7th-circuit/1407580.html

Hope everyone here understands that M-16 parts in the upper are fine. Un-modified M-16 parts in the lower is not legal. They have ruled that if you modify the M-16 parts to match AR-15 parts you are fine. That is a simple task for anyone with a Dremel tool, or a bench grinder.




.

 

[Frank Ettin]

Frank I've seen some people solely blame the selector. The internet blames some sort of super sensitive primer used by the ATF. It was a combination of other M-16 parts in the lower that lead to the problem. Four of the AR-15's fire control components were parts from M-16 rifles...

And the Interne myth is that Olofson was convicted for an accidental, unanticipated malfunction. Yet the evidence at his trial showed clearly that he knew the rifle would fire bursts. He knowingly, unlawfully possessed a fully automatic firearm within the meaning of the NFA.

Good article here on that.
http://caselaw.findlaw.com/us-7th-circuit/1407580.html

That is the actual opinion of the Seventh Circuit.

 

[BSA1]

Back to the original question.

Back in 2012 I called the BATF and asked this same question. I was told that it is legal to use Made in the USA high capacity magazines. I posted this information on THR on this thread;

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=677255


Since I made that post I have not read anything that says otherwise. There is a lot of misunderstanding about 922r along with huge fear of the BATF and Federal Government.

Personally I have no reservations about using Made in the US high capacity magazines in my Saiga Sporter.

 

[Acera]

We need a sticky explaining some of the most common misconceptions regarding these things, like all the misconceptions swirling around 922r.

David Olofson's case should be first on the list.

'The government made shoe laces illegal' should be next on that list.



etc.

etc.


.