.300BLK - Poised to win or doomed to fail?

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A cheaper .308? LOL!

More like really expensive 7.62x39 in a much more expensive rifle.
 
I thought this was The HIGH Road. I guess I misclicked. Please tell me why you think these prices are artificially low. And also how "most" of these companies are owned by the same parent cmpany since only a small number of them are.
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kwelz, snarky comment yourself, hu?

But to answer your question, What brass other than mainstream long-established cartridges like the .223 or .45 or 9mm, is that cheap? And after only one year? You think they've paid off their tooling-up costs yet? I doubt it; especially at the rate and persistence they're marketing it.

Google "Cerberus" and "Freedom Group" about company ownership; i don't have the time to explain how corporate entities work right now.

...and if you still don't think my post might have a grain of truth to it; take a look at rsilver's 4 posts since then with no reply to my question. That's telling in and of itself.
 
A cheaper .308? LOL!
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Very good point. This has nothing in common with a 308 Winchester other than bullet diameter. There is no comparison whatsoever between the two cartridge's ballistics.
 
desidog said:
...and if you still don't think my post might have a grain of truth to it; take a look at rsilver's 4 posts since then with no reply to my question. That's telling in and of itself.
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I did not respond to your post because it was preposterous. We are committed to having this cartridge be a huge success, and I realize that means low ammo prices. I have done everything to enable that - and to enable others to make the ammo also. We will never price it to compete with imported steel cased or surplus ammo though. We pay US labor costs. Compare it to like-quality 7.62x39mm or 5.56mm ammo and it is competitive.

The UMC is not even a FMJ - it is an OTM - and the brass is NATO-like hardness - so 5.56mm quality more than 223 quality.
 
If I can squeak a question in sideways? Are bullets and brass available for reloaders? Is it designed for a total copper bullet only - the test bullets shown look like it.Can this round run cast lead? What are the ballistics that would make me want to go from either 7.62x39mm or .223 to this round, if you don't mind? I find it interesting, that's for certain. Are there semi-auto magazine fed rifles able to be set up for this caliber that are NOT AR-15 based?
Thank you for your time, always nice to "speak" to an industry rep.
 
I don't get the point of a slower, more expensive .30 cal than the 7.62x39. I would have been more interested in a .25 cal using .223 brass.
 
For bullets, use any .308 diameter bullet. Some makers, such as Barnes, are developing purpose engineered bullets specifically for the velocities of the 300 BLK.

For brass, you can trim and size .223 Remington/5.56 brass. New Remington brass is available. I think Allen Arms has some currently.

Lee, Redding, Hornady, Foster (maybe others) have 300 BLK dies available.

If you're loading on a Dillon progressive, you'll need the "AK47" powder funnel due to the lack of case length like the x39.

Lead is no problem. Be sure to slug your bore like any other.

If you like kinetic energy, the 300 BLK has almost 17% more energy at 300m than the x39. It also feeds much better than the x39, which needs curved magazines.

In general, most any .223/5.56 weapon platform can be converted to 300 BLK with a simple barrel change. A friend of mine is working on converting his Mini-14 to 300 BLK. The rounds fit and feed manually from the magazine (he took his barrel off).
 
kwelz, snarky comment yourself, hu?

But to answer your question, What brass other than mainstream long-established cartridges like the .223 or .45 or 9mm, is that cheap? And after only one year? You think they've paid off their tooling-up costs yet? I doubt it; especially at the rate and persistence they're marketing it.

Google "Cerberus" and "Freedom Group" about company ownership; i don't have the time to explain how corporate entities work right now.

...and if you still don't think my post might have a grain of truth to it; take a look at rsilver's 4 posts since then with no reply to my question. That's telling in and of itself.
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I am just being honest. You came in being adversarial and combative.
The price is what it is set at. Unless they are selling it at a loss then it isn't "artificially low" It is the price they want it to be.

And as for other rounds that are that cheap. 5.7 comes to mind. I can get it for around .35/round.

And I am well aware of the Freedom group and what companies they own. I have worked in the firearms industry, have you?

There are over 70 companies that I know of making .300 parts or ammo. Of those I think I see 6 that are owned by the Freedom group. So less than 10% make up "most" in your opinion.

You are not making any sense. Apparently you don't like the .300. You have made that clear. But Rsilvers has been trying to provide information where he can. Maybe that is part of his job. Maybe he is just doing it because he wants to help.

There are those of us who want actual industry people to weigh in. They tend to know more than armchair commandos and wannabe engineers.
 
Now having already admitted my ignorance (and thank you all for the information so far) I have to agree and say intentionally being antagonist with little more than conjecture, opinion and heresay is exceptionally lowroad.

Even indulging in the idle musing that rsilvers is a company propagandist, he at least has answered nearly every point leveled at him in every thread I've seen him post; either with hard data or linked source. Even if he is pulling the company line, he's been more than indulgent. Hell, he's done a better job in customer relations than half the companies I've worked at. Since looking into the caliber on this forum, I've seen the threads he's posted in. Of course he dominates him. He's a company resource whose brain everybody is desperate to pick. Some people here make that seem like a bad thing. God forbid you get a company rep catering to your forum and answer your every question.

Second, the guy has posted ballistics information ad nausum. I know this because I stumble across his posts using the THR search feature while researching "300 blackout". Go figure. I don't expect him to do so here nor is that what this thread is about. That horse has been beat. To death.

I didn't mean for this post to come off as some sort of 'in defense of rsilvers' diatribe originally, but so what if he's in every thread concerning his product. So what if he is a company front man actually paid to drop in on topics like this one. Maybe he is. Maybe he just likes the forum. That's called PR. Nothing wrong with it. You could only wish other firearm vendors did the same with such intensity.

Is he spamming misinformation? No, not that I've seen.
Is he forcing an opinion down your throat? Again, he drops information based on direct questions or challenge.
Is he rude? Not that I've seen.
Does he verbally abuse others? Call them shills and liars? Nah.

I'll listen to him for that alone, even if he does have a vested interest in the product.

Everybody else contributing something useful to the original query, thanks again. I'd say you've all answered the question.
 
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I don't get the point of a slower, more expensive .30 cal than the 7.62x39. I would have been more interested in a .25 cal using .223 brass.
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Higher energy than a 5.56 out of a shorter barrel. Very quiet when suppressed. The ability to use all standard AR components except the barrel.

It offers a LOT of benefits.
 
I don't get the point of a slower, more expensive .30 cal than the 7.62x39.
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http://www.300aacblackout.com/

^ A lot of your versus questions can be answered there. In summary, the x39 doesn't feed well from straight magazines, needs different magazines, needs a different bolt, and is very limited with bullet selection in the .311 diameter.

I would have been more interested in a .25 cal using .223 brass.
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Bullet selection and terminal performance of the .308 caliber supercedes the .25 caliber to the extent there shouldn't need to be discussion. That being said, there are plenty of .25-223 wildcats out there. The 300 BLK is a factory standard.
 
I did not respond to your post because it was preposterous.
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What is preposterous about suggesting the prices are artificially low, the many company names you've dropped are not all independently thinking about this, and that you may work for the company as a salesman?

I take it by your lack of acknowledgement on that point, that you are a paid associate of theirs? If i were in your position, I'd put a disclaimer on my signature line stating that you are a paid salesman, and not just a fanboy. That would be High Road / full disclosure.

Perhaps my statement that "and that most (or all) those companies are owned by the same parent company" is misleading as well...I'm sure that some of those companies are independent, and just hopping on the bandwagon for something that is already hyped up and has a lot of marketing money behind it - that's money that they don't have to shell out to sell product.

But "preposterous"? That sounds like a high school debater getting flummoxed.
 
Desidog, if you don't know who rsilvers is and what he does, I'll provide a little snapshot. Mr Silvers' "full time" job is R&D for Advanced Armament Corp suppressors. He is also the project lead for the 300 AAC BLACKOUT cartridge. He also owns/runs Silencertalk.com forums and the 300blktalk.com forums.

Furthermore, I don't think it wise of you to try and take him to task. You will only look foolish in the end. Trust me.
 
And by slower, you mean a whopping 200fps? WHoowee, that's going to break the bank there.
 
desidog said:
What is preposterous about suggesting the prices are artificially low, the many company names you've dropped are not all independently thinking about this, and that you may work for the company as a salesman?
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Actually you have a point in the sense that I am making an effort to hold the prices low. They do include profit though, so it is not artificially low.

desidog said:
I take it by your lack of acknowledgement on that point, that you are a paid associate of theirs? If i were in your position, I'd put a disclaimer on my signature line stating that you are a paid salesman, and not just a fanboy. That would be High Road / full disclosure.
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Yes, I am Director of R&D for AAC. I am the project lead on the cartridge. Sorry, I thought everyone knew this. I will add it to my sigline on this site too.
 
For bullets, use any .308 diameter bullet. Some makers, such as Barnes, are developing purpose engineered bullets specifically for the velocities of the 300 BLK.
Nifty, that makes things easy.
For brass, you can trim and size .223 Remington/5.56 brass. New Remington brass is available. I think Allen Arms has some currently.
New brass works best for me, thanks.
Lee, Redding, Hornady, Foster (maybe others) have 300 BLK dies available.
If Lee has it, all good - my "go-to" dies.
If you're loading on a Dillon progressive, you'll need the "AK47" powder funnel due to the lack of case length like the x39.
Nope, 30 year old RCBS RS single stage with Uniflow powder measure, anticipate no problems
Lead is no problem. Be sure to slug your bore like any other.
Well, if any .308 will fit, there's more than one mold to choose from!
If you like kinetic energy, the 300 BLK has almost 17% more energy at 300m than the x39. It also feeds much better than the x39, which needs curved magazines.
Sweet - but does it drop like 7.62x39mm? I can't really reach out very far with my CZ 527M, as much as I love it, with that rainbow trajectory. Does this shoot flatter/farther?
In general, most any .223/5.56 weapon platform can be converted to 300 BLK with a simple barrel change. A friend of mine is working on converting his Mini-14 to 300 BLK. The rounds fit and feed manually from the magazine (he took his barrel off).
Again, nifty - any other firearms available STOCK in this caliber other than AR clones? I just really hate that SPROING in my ear, unless they designed that out in the 30 years since I shot an M-16. The whole concept really does appeal, don't get me wrong. Thank you for the detailed answer.
 
No, it is not flatter than 7.62x39mm. In order to be flatter in an AR15, you have to go to varmint bullets like 223 or 204 Ruger. However, I don't want to shoot medium sized game or do self-defense with varmint bullets. And since I hunt and self-defense well within the range of 300 BLK - I would rather not compromise the bullet to a low mass just to have a flatter trajectory for ranges that I never shoot.

A military group told me that 92% of their shots were within 300 meters. That is what 300 BLK is designed for - though actually by M4 standards, the range is 460 meters.
 
RhinoDefense, Thank you for the clear and concise answer. Perhaps Mr. Silvers was just being humble.

Rsilvers, I apologize if I sounded offensive, but my intention was not to take you to task, but to shed a bit more light on exactly what the relationships are here. I find it much more interesting and endearing that you are the creator of this product; rather than some random marketing guy your firm has hired to pimp .300blk on internet forums.

It would not be the first time a company has hired someone to do overt and covert internet PR...and .300BLK has a lot of PR.

I would be interested to hear how you've managed to get so many companies on board, and how (despite not having been picked up in major military contracts to date (that I'm aware of)) you have similar prices for brass as the mainstream NATO chamberings that are far more established. Without looking over your shoulder at the spreadsheets, i imagine that you can't be making much (if any) profit yet?

-Desidog
 
I think it will succeed. Look how fast it has taken off already. It offers many things that can be claimed by NO other cartridges that I'm aware of:

-.30 cal that has a case tapered to work/feed correctly in the AR15 magwell
-The ONLY main proprietary part I can see is the barrel. (Maybe the gas tube?? Not sure on that yet)
-The bullets are the most common in the western world, and the brass can be made from .223 in a pinch. Even if the entire effort went belly-up tomorrow, you could shoot it until the barrel falls off, for the same cost required to shoot it today.
-Uses 5.56 bolt and mags, completely unmodified to include the follower... no expensive/limited source issues on either of these two key components
-Load data for supersonic and subsonic loads readily available
-Uppers are said to run reliably with any of the loads, with no gas adjustments at all.

Most non-.223 AR15 cartridges can't claim more than one or maybe two of the above.

I was actually surfing .300 blackout stuff on Midway earlier today; they already have like 6 pages of crap for it, from complete uppers from several companies, dies, barrels... you name it. There is a disclaimer at the bottom of the AAC factory upper descriptions about subsonic ammo may not run without a suppressor in adverse conditions (might have to get some owners opinions on that.. conflicts with what I've heard previously), and also I didn't realize there were varying gas system lengths... so I have some research still to go, but I think this is going to be my next AR build. I'll probably send the paperwork in sometime early next year.
 
Case in point, last time I saw a cartridge take off like a rocket, it was 40SW, and I don't think that one is going anywhere. :)
Very interesting. I also agree, 300 yards is about as far out as I shoot with a non bolt action rifle, and very rarely.
 
Thanks.

The trick to having lower prices is to accept lower profit in the hopes you will make it up in volume. But there is still significant profit in it (not less than the profit in 223 ammo). The difference is that in 223, the profit is limited due to competition - whereas in 300 AAC BLACKOUT, we limited our profit by choice.

Some of the companies are on board because they were either asked by the military to bid on contracts, or heard about them and so saw that this was going somewhere. Others I helped enable them to make product by commissioning them make product for us, and then told them they could sell it on their own (for example, the Sierra Match bullet, Forster dies, or the Leupold scope reticle). And ammo companies - we would sell them brass at good prices so they could sell ammo at affordable prices and compete with us. Normally companies don't want to enable competition, but I wanted to try something different and share the pie, but create a larger pie by making the cartridge catch on though people seeing an overwhelming amount of support.

I basically looked at what caused other cartridges to fail, and did the opposite.
 
If anything, it's 6.5mm grendel that's going to become popular because it will be able to replace both 223 and 308 for all practical purposes.

The only unique thing about 300blk is the subsonic rounds. Not everybody has an application for that, and not everybody can get a suppressor.
 
Evil Monkey said:
If anything, it's 6.5mm grendel that's going to become popular because it will be able to replace both 223 and 308 for all practical purposes.
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I hear there will be steel cased Wolff ammo - but I still don't believe it will be the price of 7.62x39mm as the volume will be lower, and I am not sure they are willing to give up their profits for something they believe in like we are doing. We will see. Even so, any version with a decent bullet won't be cheap.

Evil Monkey said:
The only unique thing about 300blk is the subsonic rounds. Not everybody has an application for that, and not everybody can get a suppressor.
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The main purpose of 300 BLK is to shoot 30 caliber bullets from an AR15, while still having 30 round capacity in normal AR mags and with a normal bolt. That is huge.
 
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