308 178gr ELD - How far off the lands?
- Thread starter Kaldor
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Blue68f100
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Depends on the gun. The ELD's I've shot have not been jump sensitive. I use the lands adj as one of the final tweaks after the optimum load is found.
I have no idea what my OAL is or how far I'm off the lands. I load mine just as long as possible that will fit the magazine. I won't say 1/2" all day long, but 1/2" 100 yard groups are common. I'm having a bad day if any group goes over 1". That is all I ask of my rifles.
Orcon
Member
I run mine at 2.86". That puts me .0025" from the lands and puts me just under mag length. I've also had good success just running at book length too.
Thanks gents. I think Im going to run a ladder at 10 thou off, see what it looks like.
This is one of those deal where what I thought was a previous good shooting load is not all that great shooting. Just need to do some fine tuning.
This is one of those deal where what I thought was a previous good shooting load is not all that great shooting. Just need to do some fine tuning.
Blue68f100
Member
If your using a powder that is temp sensitive it seams to always bite you somewhere down the road.
Varminterror
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ELD’s don’t seem to be very jump sensitive for any of them I have tested. 10thou off is my standard starting point for hunting rifles. I have ran the ELD’s as far out as 50thou and still ran sub-MOA, including the 178 30cals in 30-06.
ArchAngelCD
Member.
IMO much to much is made of the jump to the rifling especially by shooters who are not shooting competitions like Benchrest where fractions of an inch count.
I suggest you just fine the most accurate load for your rifle/barrel and not pick an arbitrary number especially one so close to the rifling. I know many are going to disagree but I feel normal shooters go way overboard with all the small things that when combined will help you win a competition. Problem is, when all the "tricks" are not implemented together you probably won't see any major gains.
Again, this is just all in my opinion.
I suggest you just fine the most accurate load for your rifle/barrel and not pick an arbitrary number especially one so close to the rifling. I know many are going to disagree but I feel normal shooters go way overboard with all the small things that when combined will help you win a competition. Problem is, when all the "tricks" are not implemented together you probably won't see any major gains.
Again, this is just all in my opinion.
Varminterror
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@ArchAngelCD I would offer two thoughts for you to ponder on the topic of bullet seating depth, which might change your opinion, or at least temper your opinion for others who are learning the craft of reloading.
I’ll preface this by saying - if your opinion is jilted by the old yarn, “4 inch groups will kill a deer,” then the conversation is moot and can’t contribute to a meaningful discussion about reloading.
1) Some bullets care an awful lot about jump. I swore off Barnes monometals many years ago after I simply could NOT get them to shoot. Try as I might, I just couldn’t figure out what combination of powder, primer, charge weight, etc would make them shoot under 1.5moa, let alone under 1. So I was the guy talking trash on Barnes bullets because my experience in shooting hundreds of them was negative. Then less-many years ago, a trusted colleague gave me the secret - give them a long jump. Bingo - itty bitty groups which have since made them famous for their accuracy. I’ve seen the same behavior from every mono-metal rifle bullet I have tried. Equally, it’s far easier to get a secant ogive bullet to shoot if you don’t give it any wiggle room.
2) What other control parameters exist in reloading which a) are easier to control, and b) have a bigger influence on precision? And by “easy” I mean simple to achieve but also mean inexpensive to achieve and mean quick to achieve. Many options for brass, primers, and even powders can result in sub-MOA results, and improving precision through these typically doesn’t have substantial returns. Weight sorting primers won’t yield any improvement which can be seen by a factory rifle shooter. Weight sorting brass, turning necks, uniforming flash holes, measuring concentricity of sized brass, etc all take a lot of time (and more equipment cost), but the visible impact on group size is minimal. With smaller and smaller incremental gains, more and more shots have to be taken to prove the improvement. Whereas a guy can shoot 30rnds of a ladder or OCW test, find a happy horizontal group in a node, shoot 15 more rounds of varying seating depth and be happy knowing they have found groups nearly as small as the rifle could ever shoot.
For me, personally, out of a thousand things reloaders can do to improve precision, powder charge and seating depth optimization have proven to give the most performance return on investment for the average reloader. Focus on fundamentals and you’ll be rewarded.
I’ll preface this by saying - if your opinion is jilted by the old yarn, “4 inch groups will kill a deer,” then the conversation is moot and can’t contribute to a meaningful discussion about reloading.
1) Some bullets care an awful lot about jump. I swore off Barnes monometals many years ago after I simply could NOT get them to shoot. Try as I might, I just couldn’t figure out what combination of powder, primer, charge weight, etc would make them shoot under 1.5moa, let alone under 1. So I was the guy talking trash on Barnes bullets because my experience in shooting hundreds of them was negative. Then less-many years ago, a trusted colleague gave me the secret - give them a long jump. Bingo - itty bitty groups which have since made them famous for their accuracy. I’ve seen the same behavior from every mono-metal rifle bullet I have tried. Equally, it’s far easier to get a secant ogive bullet to shoot if you don’t give it any wiggle room.
2) What other control parameters exist in reloading which a) are easier to control, and b) have a bigger influence on precision? And by “easy” I mean simple to achieve but also mean inexpensive to achieve and mean quick to achieve. Many options for brass, primers, and even powders can result in sub-MOA results, and improving precision through these typically doesn’t have substantial returns. Weight sorting primers won’t yield any improvement which can be seen by a factory rifle shooter. Weight sorting brass, turning necks, uniforming flash holes, measuring concentricity of sized brass, etc all take a lot of time (and more equipment cost), but the visible impact on group size is minimal. With smaller and smaller incremental gains, more and more shots have to be taken to prove the improvement. Whereas a guy can shoot 30rnds of a ladder or OCW test, find a happy horizontal group in a node, shoot 15 more rounds of varying seating depth and be happy knowing they have found groups nearly as small as the rifle could ever shoot.
For me, personally, out of a thousand things reloaders can do to improve precision, powder charge and seating depth optimization have proven to give the most performance return on investment for the average reloader. Focus on fundamentals and you’ll be rewarded.
Discussions like these are why I love this group. Varminterror and others bring up some very valid points. When someone reads this thread months or years from now these help determine if one is on the right track or not.
For me, I'm not a precision shooter. Sure I like small groups as much as the next guy but I mostly shoot for fun and hunting. I have never chased the lands, and I am a relatively new reloader. Being I like my fingers/hands and also want to continue living I also try to be as conservative as possible when chasing the ultimate load. For me I start .020 - .030 off the lands, find a optimal charge then vary seating depth from there, keeping in mind that seating deeper would increase pressure. For my couple of bolt actions I think my general hunting loads are somewhere around .015 off and that works for me.
This discussion makes me want to go try something new, it's been a couple years
-Jeff
For me, I'm not a precision shooter. Sure I like small groups as much as the next guy but I mostly shoot for fun and hunting. I have never chased the lands, and I am a relatively new reloader. Being I like my fingers/hands and also want to continue living I also try to be as conservative as possible when chasing the ultimate load. For me I start .020 - .030 off the lands, find a optimal charge then vary seating depth from there, keeping in mind that seating deeper would increase pressure. For my couple of bolt actions I think my general hunting loads are somewhere around .015 off and that works for me.
This discussion makes me want to go try something new, it's been a couple years
-Jeff
Nature Boy
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When it comes to developing a load for best accuracy, finding the optimal seating depth has to be in the top 3 of importance, along with bullet selection and power choice/charge weight.
@Varminterror summed it up very well.
To find the optimal seating depth you first have to find the lands. That’s probably a subject for a separate thread
@Varminterror summed it up very well.
To find the optimal seating depth you first have to find the lands. That’s probably a subject for a separate thread
ArchAngelCD
Member.
@Varminterror You said it better but if you look closely at what I said I agreed seating depth is important. What I was saying is all the chatter about being the bullet right up against the lands was being overdone and overemphasized. Some loaders take a small piece of information and take it out of context. Then it gets repeated over and over until it becomes law.
I said to find a good load and go with it but not to focus on butting right up against the rifling. Finding a good load includes bullet depth but depth for accuracy not adjusting the OAL to a number just off the lands just for the number.
I fear I still didn't articulate what I mean very well. I adjust the bullet depth to find accuracy but I don't usually measure the distance to the lands.
I said to find a good load and go with it but not to focus on butting right up against the rifling. Finding a good load includes bullet depth but depth for accuracy not adjusting the OAL to a number just off the lands just for the number.
I fear I still didn't articulate what I mean very well. I adjust the bullet depth to find accuracy but I don't usually measure the distance to the lands.
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