.308/7.62x51 for home defense?

[TexasRifleman]

If I'm defending a small space (a room, hallway, etc.), I want a 12 gauge with 00 buckshot (my Colt 1911 on the hip to boot). I can gather my family and while they are evacuating or what have you, I can hold the fort... more or less stationary... until my blue cavalry arrives. The purpose of HD is to defend, to protect your family... not go out searching for the threat; but rather, shielding your loved ones from the threat.

That works great if your family sleeps together in one room. I'm working on the assumption that many people may have to move to get to a child in another room.

Hard to hunker down in bunker mode with a kid in another room and intruders in the house.

I don't WANT to go through the house looking for bad guys, but the reality is that it's pretty likely to happen that way. In that situation, 00 buck would be very dangerous it seems.

 

[mothermopar]

Texas...

How would buck be more dangerous than a high-powered rifle? The rifle has higher penetration and more energy... a rifle will go through a ballistic vest. Buckshot will not. Please look at the website boxotruth for real world evaluations.

As for missing a target, be reminded that in typical HD scenarios, you won't be firing more than 15, 20 feet or so. At that distance, buckshot spread will be minimal... we're talking inches. A good, moden buckshot at 25 yards will ideally pattern all pellets on an 8.5 x 11 inch sheet of paper. AT 25 YARDS.

As for 'hunkering down'... of course you'd need to move initially to gather people up. But moving down a hallway doesn't require a nimble weapon unless you're in and out, in and out of doorways in an offensive capacity.

Anyway, that's my stance. Don't believe me? Read some Ayoob (sp?), etc.

 

[mothermopar]

Additionally, if you've secured your family and are then attempting to clear a house by yourself with a threat that's already known to be inside, then you're a danged fool (not a jab, but a word of wisdom). You can't cover your front and back by yourself. That's why in LE and military training, you don't even clear a ROOM by yourself.

Get your family safe and defend/evacuate them. When help arrives let them worry about the rest.

 

[RatDrall]

People don't seem to read, learn, and change their minds. After numerous posts demonstrating that a .308 with the proper ammunition will fragment and penetrate less than their own handgun or shotgun rounds, they still post "No way man .308 will go through your brick walls, a car, the house across the street and kill all of your neighbors". What is the point of joining these discussions if you ignore everything else written and leave just as ignorant as you were when you came in?

I wouldn't use the .308 just because of the blast and flash, but if all I had was a FAL I would load up with the light TAP round and worry about hitting the badguy.

 

[TexasRifleman]

How would buck be more dangerous than a high-powered rifle?

I didn't say buck was more dangerous than a high powered rifle, I said that OO buck and a shotgun were not significantly better choices.

The shotgun is simply not the only choice for this application. Rifles can effectively be used as home defense firearms. Any firearm capable of stopping a bad guy will have the potential to penetrate walls after hitting the bad guy. The idea is to minimize that risk and the shotgun doesn't give significant advantages in that area. I want to minimize the risk, I can't make the risk go away.

Would I sacrifice some stopping power in favor of a load that might not penetrate either the bad guy or a wall as well? Maybe in some cases that might be necessary.

 

[TexasRifleman]

Additionally, if you've secured your family and are then attempting to clear a house by yourself with a threat that's already known to be inside, then you're a danged fool (not a jab, but a word of wisdom). You can't cover your front and back by yourself. That's why in LE and military training, you don't even clear a ROOM by yourself.

Get your family safe and defend/evacuate them. When help arrives let them worry about the rest.

Unfortunately the real world doesn't work that way. You can't call the police every time you hear a noise or the dog barks.

In the real world home owners do have to move room to room to validate whether or not there is an intruder and to get everyone safe. Sure, once you know there is one you don't go after him, but you need to know for sure and if you have family in another room you simply don't have any choice but to move.

It's just not realistic to say "don't do it". You have to plan for real life.

 

[benEzra]

The reason some agencies are choosing carbines are various and have little to do with home defense.

Defense would insinuate defending... quite the opposite of an offensive operation (executing a search warrant, for example). If one is hunkered down or slowly and methodically searching in a typical HD situation, it is quite a different scenario than a dynamic entry. Actually, it is EXTREMELY different.

Different weapons for different purposes.

If I'm defending a small space (a room, hallway, etc.), I want a 12 gauge with 00 buckshot (my Colt 1911 on the hip to boot). I can gather my family and while they are evacuating or what have you, I can hold the fort... more or less stationary... until my blue cavalry arrives. The purpose of HD is to defend, to protect your family... not go out searching for the threat; but rather, shielding your loved ones from the threat.

If I'm performing a dynamic entry, then a smaller, easy to handle, lighter carbine is what I'd reach for. Something I can sling quickly to cuff a turd, and at the same time reach out and touch a longer distance threat.

One is better suited for offensive purposes, the other, defensive.

I work for one of the 10 largest LE agencies in the USA... we issue both 12 gauge 870's and carbines.

Of course, this is just opinion. I've participated in countless entries, and the rationale for my statements are based on my training and experiences. To each their own, but I'm certain the top 'gun guys' would agree that the 12 gauge with 00 buck is the way to go for HD.

Actually, the reasons many agencies have adopted semiauto-only .223 carbines for general patrol use (non-SWAT) are very applicable to civilian HD. A .223 carbine can be employed in any setting in which a civilian HD shotgun would be, including sheltering-in-place, and the carbine is just as suitable for the latter as a shotgun loaded with 00.

The shotgun offers perhaps the greatest single-shot lethality of any Title 1 firearm; the carbine offers less recoil, better capacity, and easier reloading, and (with lightweight .223 JHP's) somewhat less penetration in wallboard than 00 buckshot. The other thing is, a lot of people (including me) have a lot of experience shooting carbines and little to no experience/interest in shooting shotguns; if it comes down to shotgun vs. carbine, the best choice is the one you are most competent with.

If you have access to back issues of Police Marksman, check out the following article (this was 12 years ago): Roberts G.K., "Law Enforcement General Purpose Shoulder Fired Weapons: the Wounding Effects of 5.56mm/.223 Carbines Compared with 12 ga. Shotguns and Pistol Caliber Weapons Using 10% Ordnance Gelatin as a Tissue Simulant, Police Marksman, Jul/Aug 1998, pp. 38-45.

Having said that, moving up to .308 (even relatively light-for-caliber JHP) loses some of the advantages of .223 with regard to HD; a .308 recoils more, likely penetrates more, and requires a bigger, heavier, and bulkier firearm.

How would buck be more dangerous than a high-powered rifle? The rifle has higher penetration and more energy... a rifle will go through a ballistic vest. Buckshot will not. Please look at the website boxotruth for real world evaluations.

Penetration in Kevlar does not correlate with penetration in wallboard. Shotgun penetration in wallboard depends on shot size, but 00 buckshot does out-penetrate most civilian .223 JHP, though probably less than 5.56x45mm FMJ. I can't speak to .308 penetration, though, as I have seen no tests.

To my knowledge, there are no tests of light .223 JHP on the Box o'Truth website. There is a 3-wall test of various .223, pistol rounds, and buckshot here:

http://how-i-did-it.org/drywall/results.html

I am unfamiliar with any drywall tests of light .308 JHP or VMAX loads, unfortunately.

 

[Bartholomew Roberts]

Why are we even discussing shotguns? Did the original poster ask about alternatives to a .308 or rifle for home defense? Was the title of this thread ".308 or Shotgun" and it got changed at some point?

I'd be ****ing amazed if we had a thread discussing the use of rifles for self-defense and somebody didn't chime in with their off-topic $.02 regarding some other firearm being better.

I think I'm going to start responding to any thread regarding self-defense by telling people they should use a soup can in a sock because it only penetrates one sheet of drywall and won't harm their hearing.

And getting back on topic:

Would you ever use such a weapon for HD purposes?

Yes; but not my first choice and only if I had the appropriate ammunition. At close range is precisely where there is the least difference between an intermediate caliber and a full rifle caliber like .308, so I am increasing the size and weight of the firearm (or the blast if I reduce barrel size), I am going to get a longer split time between shots, and in return I am going to see a small increase in performance.

 

[mothermopar]

Sweet baby Jesus.

Texas, you said:

"I don't WANT to go through the house looking for bad guys, but the reality is that it's pretty likely to happen that way. In that situation, 00 buck would be very dangerous it seems."

Why?

The point of all of this is that I said that the 12 gauge with 00 buck is the premier choice for HD. Some of you disagree. That's fine. Your opinion is based on individual choices and levels of experience. I'm simply stating that it is widely accepted amongst those who know weapons that this pairing is commonly considered to be the best HD combo going. I'm stating nothing more than that... of course, we got off base a bit, but that's all I'm saying: most persons in the know feel that the 12 gauge/00 buck combo is the best HD weapon combo. Its not a matter of what is actually better for YOU, but for persons in general according to some noted authors (and fellow posters) I've read about.

As for my "errors" in caliber choice, penetration, etc. I'm no ballistics expert, so forgive my well intentioned point-making.

Point is that a typical 308 (FMJ, for example, the most common round) will penetrate at least as well as 00 buck fired from a 12 gauge through any media. *Note: I suggested earlier that the OP should consider a lighter bullet and/or one that is not FMJ.

*** How did we bring 223 into this discussion? Did I do it?!?! LOL

 

[TexasRifleman]

I'm simply stating that it is widely accepted amongst those who know weapons that this pairing is commonly considered to be the best HD combo going.

No, most don't say that. But in deference to what BR said, maybe best to start another thread on shotgun vs rifle so as not to derail this one.

But you asked a question about my comments. I said that 00 Buck would be very dangerous for some of the reasons that benEzra touched on above vs a carbine. Also, 00 gives a bit much over penetration, and while it's true that a rifle does as well, you have potentially 9 projectiles flying around a room instead of 1. Shotguns do pattern close together at close range but after the first impact they spread out in a bit of a random pattern. Box O Truth has the sheetrock stacked with small air space between, but that's not how houses are built.

#1 hardened Buck seems to be what I see recommended most for home defense use with a shotgun. "For personal defense and law enforcement applications, the International Wound Ballistics Association advocates number 1 buckshot as being superior to all other buckshot sizes" is a quote I see often. There are so many possibilities that it's silly to say that "a shotgun and 00 buck are far superior". That's simply not the case.

There may be situations where they are the best choice, but there will be many where they are not the best choice. They are simply one possibility to consider among many others.

I think there is a tendency to get wrapped up in the firearm type, and that is only part of the picture. The firearm is simply the delivery mechanism for the projectile so there needs to be at least as much time spent thinking about the ammunition as there is spent thinking about the firearm.

 

[Bear 45/70]

Quote:
Originally Posted by TexasRifleman I guess that explains why LE agencies around the world are dropping the shotgun in favor of the carbine?

Yeah, we wanna follow cops example on firearms since they fell in love with the Glock and 9 mm. Besides that cops never do home defense, they assault homes from the outside. A shotgun is twice the home defense weapon a carbine is. And over penatration is the issue that any rifle caliber over steps the bounds of.

 

[C-grunt]

I think running a carbine course that utilizes an indoor shoothouse with a .308 AR-10 would be interesting and a good way to see how it handles in those situations. Especially with your ears on.

Honestly, touching one off indoors... Realistically? Is there much difference between a .357 and a 7.62? I think you'd notice the difference more with ears on than off. You'll be ringing afterwards no matter what.

Had an Army buddy who did a course, through Blackwater I think, with a PTR-91.

He said he was the only one with a .308 rifle. He said he had slower times due to recoil and the size of the weapon, but stated the blast and what not was not much more over the ARs.

 

[Girodin]

Muzzle blast inside a room or hallway will peel the paint off the walls and blind & deafen you.

Problems solved!

 

[General Geoff]

A shotgun is twice the home defense weapon a carbine is. And over penatration is the issue that any rifle caliber over steps the bounds of.

Completely false. Aside from the proof in this thread, see: http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=513586


We tout ourselves as the logical side, but so many people insist on believing in something that isn't true (and indeed can be proven false). Why is that?

 

[Girodin]

It doesn't matter how many times people point out that a carbine can be less of an over penetration threat than popular handgun calibers or shotguns, people will continue to repeat the misconception that carbines pose too much a threat of over penetration. Some people are so convinced of things that they wont let facts get in the way.

 

[06]

What is your definition of HD?? Is it letting them get close and inside your home?? If so then your primary HD has failed. Mine changes from room to room from handguns to shotgun to my reach out and touch them '06. I keep different needs in different mags(ten rd each) from AP to hunting rds. If they are wearing armor then the AP will make a difference-even with ballistic plates. So what HD rounds do you want?? "TAP" fragmenting rds or something that will penetrate what ever you are aiming at??? If you are worried about "over penetration" that badly then load your shotty with bird shot. I will take my heavy shooter anyday--there may be two or more standing behind each other-- there may be one behind "protection" and you may need something to "remove" his cover.

 

[Bear 45/70]

Completely false. Aside from the proof in this thread, see: http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=513586

We tout ourselves as the logical side, but so many people insist on believing in something that isn't true (and indeed can be proven false). Why is that?

Yeah, your logic defies all logic, because you want to believe it. Oh and just because somebody posts it on the net don't make it so. I suppose you also believe that to get deep penetration you have to have high velocity?

 

[Bear 45/70]

Problems solved!

That might work except they are illegal here. You can own them, even mount it on your gun, but firing a round thru it is a felony.

 

[General Geoff]

Yeah, your logic defies all logic, because you want to believe it.

My logic follows proven fact found by repeatable experimentation and evidence. How about yours?

Oh and just because somebody posts it on the net don't make it so.

So you are questioning the veracity of Hornady? I'm sure they'd like to hear about it. Or are you just alleging that the poster of said gelatin tests retouched the photo (without a shred of evidence to contradict the results it shows)? Also, said tests can be replicated by anyone with gelatin mix, a refrigerator, a .308 rifle and a box of Hornady TAP ammo. That's the point of science. Proven, repeatable results.

I suppose you also believe that to get deep penetration you have to have high velocity?

Not at all. Why would you think that?

 

[Driftertank]

I think I'm going to start responding to any thread regarding self-defense by telling people they should use a soup can in a sock because it only penetrates one sheet of drywall and won't harm their hearing

I'm SO signing up for your self-defence class....that sounds WAY more effective than my current 'PVC pipe wrapped in duct tape and pipe insulation' Home Defense solution.....

 

[benEzra]

Yeah, we wanna follow cops example on firearms since they fell in love with the Glock and 9 mm.

And Glocks and 9mm aren't good choices for non-LE civilian use?

Besides that cops never do home defense, they assault homes from the outside.

Semiauto-only civilian carbines are issued mostly to non-SWAT, and the primary mission of the long gun in the trunk/roof rack is not "assaulting homes".

Carbines with appropriate ammunition are suitable for any HD role that a shotgun with light buckshot is.

A shotgun is twice the home defense weapon a carbine is.

On what grounds? Terminal ballistics? Ease of use under stress? Hit probability? Capacity? Ease of reloading? Probability of rounds being contained by the structure?

The shotgun and carbine are pretty evenly matched. It comes down to personal preference and proficiency.

And over penatration is the issue that any rifle caliber over steps the bounds of.

This is provably, demonstrably, false for both gelatin and wallboard, unless you are talking about birdshot and not buckshot.

 

[NMGonzo]

.308?

Most platforms are kind of unwieldy for indoors.

Would you settle for .223?

 

[Hangingrock]

(No)

 

[Art Eatman]

Nuff.