I am considering getting a 308 and re-barreling to a 6.5 creed. I would like to have a gun that can harvest a deer at 5-600 yds max. I like the reliability of the Browning Bar, but what would the accuracy be like that far away. My other thought would be a A-Bolt, but I really like the thought of a quick follow up shot. What are y'alls opinions?
308 re-barrel to 6.5 creedmoor?
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I think you don't really know what it takes to make a humane kill at 5 ~ 6oo yards. It's not the same as at a range, with known distances. Most important - paper targets don't suffer if you make a bad hit.
You need to work out gradually, under true field conditions, to see what your max range is.
You need to work out gradually, under true field conditions, to see what your max range is.
Nature Boy
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I agree with Merle.
Aside from that, your .308 is good at those distances. Save the money you'd spend on a new barrel, buy some ammo with it and shoot a 500 yard lane. You'll figure out that working to get, or waiting for, a 200 yard shot on a deer is a much better prospect.
Aside from that, your .308 is good at those distances. Save the money you'd spend on a new barrel, buy some ammo with it and shoot a 500 yard lane. You'll figure out that working to get, or waiting for, a 200 yard shot on a deer is a much better prospect.
Well, that's good to hear. Far too many think it's an easy shot, resulting in wounded game.
If you can, try to compete in a National Match course - or a silhouette match.
That will let you know just where you stand - pus give you a chance to get in some wind estimating practice.
Nature Boy
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10 Ringer, don't get me wrong, I'm not preaching, or getting into the ethics of one shot vs. another at X-distance. It's your rife and your hunt. Take whatever shot you like. No judgment from me.
I'm strictly speaking of the practicality of a 500-600 yard shot, under field conditions, with a dose of buck fever for good measure. Your odds of success go down as distance increases.
I'm strictly speaking of the practicality of a 500-600 yard shot, under field conditions, with a dose of buck fever for good measure. Your odds of success go down as distance increases.
Gtscotty
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OK, I've got to ask: Why not just buy a rifle already chambered in 6.5 CM? Currently, you can get rifles so chambered from Ruger, Weatherby, Savage, Kimber, Browning, Howa and Tikka.
If you want a 6.5 CM semi-auto, an AR-10 style rifle is definitely your best bet.
If you want a 6.5 CM semi-auto, an AR-10 style rifle is definitely your best bet.
I just figured a A bolt was more accurate than a X- Bolt from what I have read. I could get one from another company, but I just like Brownings(not that I don't like others) and it would be unique. But you do have a good point. As far as AR's go, is there a Ar that wouldn't weigh over 11 or 12 lbs once you add a scope that would have the potential to be accurate enough?
Browning stuff is really not all that great in the accuracy department. If it was, you would at least see their actions in match winning and record setting rifles. They're not in that category.
If you really want to shoot precisely at 500 yards with a factory bolt action rifle that's got the accuracy track record to do it, I would start with a Savage. If you want an AR type, The AR-10 or S&W M&P15 based rifles are probably the best accuracy wise when rebuilt by competent 'smith's.
The .308 will have 50% more accurate barrel life than the 6.5 Creed.
If you really want to shoot precisely at 500 yards with a factory bolt action rifle that's got the accuracy track record to do it, I would start with a Savage. If you want an AR type, The AR-10 or S&W M&P15 based rifles are probably the best accuracy wise when rebuilt by competent 'smith's.
The .308 will have 50% more accurate barrel life than the 6.5 Creed.
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10 Ringer said:
If this is to be a hunting rifle that you might use out beyond 300 yards I would stay with a .308 Win over the 6.5 Creedmoor. For long range paper punching and ringing steel the 6.5 Creedmoor has some advantages over the .308 Win. For hunting inside 600 yards the .308 Win is the better choice. For the record, I have an AI AW that came with a .308 Win barrel but I also have a 6.5 Creedmoor barrel for that rifle. I've developed loads for both barrels, have hunted and killed a mule deer at 341 yards with the .308 Win barrel, and have shot steel out to 1100 yards with the 6.5 CM barrel.
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Gtscotty
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My impression was that he was looking for a hunting rifle. I've had most of the main brands, and I maintain that the X-Bolt is an excellent hunting rifle, and at least mine has provided consistent accuracy. I certainly wouldn't rule out everyone but Savage off the cuff. If you're looking for a target rifle, Savage and Remington are a good place to start due to the aftermarket support, but lots of companies offer excellent hunting rifles with plenty of accuracy potential.
A 1 inch (MOA) group at 100 yards with most rifles will not be a 5 inch (1 MOA) group when it reaches 500 yards. More like almost a 10 inch (2 MOA) at 500. This is when properly tested for accuracy.
What's the most you want to miss your point of aim on game at 500 yards when afield hunting game? You'll easily miss it by 2 MOA with the above conditions. Groups afield in hunting situations are much larger than at a local range testing for accuracy. Zero's attained shooting a rested rifle atop something on a bench top will not be the same in hunting positions afield. Be sure to get zeros for the field shooting positions and ranges you'll use.
At 500 yards, .260 Creed bullets drop 4 to 5 inches per 10 yards of range. How precise can you estimate range that far away?
What's the most you want to miss your point of aim on game at 500 yards when afield hunting game? You'll easily miss it by 2 MOA with the above conditions. Groups afield in hunting situations are much larger than at a local range testing for accuracy. Zero's attained shooting a rested rifle atop something on a bench top will not be the same in hunting positions afield. Be sure to get zeros for the field shooting positions and ranges you'll use.
At 500 yards, .260 Creed bullets drop 4 to 5 inches per 10 yards of range. How precise can you estimate range that far away?
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I have hunted deer for about 45 years now; just one man's opinion but why do people want to shoot that far (varmints I get but large game to me is another matter). I have hunted whitetail east of the Rockies and mule deer west of - I have spotted nice animals at long distances (especially west) and eventually shot some of them - sometimes I lost them - but I simply just got closer. I am a descent shot at longer distances but my consistency is not near 100% - that kind of shooting takes mucho practice on paper (especially in cross-wind conditions). Range practice is just a conditioning for descent shooting in the field, especially out past (say) 300 yards (opinion). My hat is off to any rifleman that can consistently make humane (in the engine room) long shots on animals in field conditions - I know they exist and they have to be excellent shots - I am not one of those 100% guys so I get closer - more hunting challenge/ fun to me.
The ethics police have arrived in force and very few have attempted to answer the question.
With proper gear, rangefinders, optics etc. either the 308 or 6.5 creedmoor are 500 yard deer cartridges. How much the bullet drops is irrelevant if you can measure the range and know how to use the optics. Anyone who can hit a deer at 50 yards can easily do the same at 300 yards with just a little practice. Going to 400-500 yards does require some practice and the discipline to not shoot if the wind or other factors are not right. But if is not a skill that difficult to attain. It is only when you get well beyond 500 yards do things get really hard.
To answer the original question. On paper the 6.5 is a slightly better choice, but not by enough that I'd pay money to rebarrel a gun. If I were buying a rifle I might well go that way. But the Browing BAR is not the best choice. It simply doesn't have the accuracy potential to ensure hits at extended ranges.
With proper gear, rangefinders, optics etc. either the 308 or 6.5 creedmoor are 500 yard deer cartridges. How much the bullet drops is irrelevant if you can measure the range and know how to use the optics. Anyone who can hit a deer at 50 yards can easily do the same at 300 yards with just a little practice. Going to 400-500 yards does require some practice and the discipline to not shoot if the wind or other factors are not right. But if is not a skill that difficult to attain. It is only when you get well beyond 500 yards do things get really hard.
To answer the original question. On paper the 6.5 is a slightly better choice, but not by enough that I'd pay money to rebarrel a gun. If I were buying a rifle I might well go that way. But the Browing BAR is not the best choice. It simply doesn't have the accuracy potential to ensure hits at extended ranges.
I decided to give the OP some facts so perhaps he could answer his own questions. I'd rather teach a man how to fish instead of giving him one.
Meanwhile, I'll don my ethics police badge, if you wish.
Having watched dozens (hundreds?) of folks lay down on the 500 and 600 yard line with zeros for the same scoped rifle and ammo they shot the month before at that range, over half the time at most, only 10% of them put their first shot inside the 12" diameter high scoring ring.
If one has a 90% chance of striking the vitals of game at 500 yards with their first shot where they've never shot before, go ahead.
Meanwhile, I'll don my ethics police badge, if you wish.
Having watched dozens (hundreds?) of folks lay down on the 500 and 600 yard line with zeros for the same scoped rifle and ammo they shot the month before at that range, over half the time at most, only 10% of them put their first shot inside the 12" diameter high scoring ring.
If one has a 90% chance of striking the vitals of game at 500 yards with their first shot where they've never shot before, go ahead.
You don't think ethics are important when a live animal is the target?
rayatphonix
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Offhand, I have both the Creedmoor and Rem 260 and reload for both. To me the cartridges are virtually identical. Why do you think the 260 is a better choice?
Offfhand
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Mr. rayatphonix, that's a fair question and deserves fair answer. I too have rifles in both calibers, in fact more than one of each. All were built for load and accuracy testing and all are outstanding examples of both calibers. As noted in my comment: the .260 is a better choice of the OP if he hunts and hand loads.
From a practical standpoint, the .260 is a better choice because of the better choices in brass, and availability. For example, in addition to the ease of making .260 brass from, .243, .308, 7mm/06 cases, factory ready .260 brass by Remington is available plus superb .260 cases from Lapua. Whereas CM brass is more limited. A factor always to be considered. This aside from the ballistic advantage, albeit slight, of the .260 over CM.
From a practical standpoint, the .260 is a better choice because of the better choices in brass, and availability. For example, in addition to the ease of making .260 brass from, .243, .308, 7mm/06 cases, factory ready .260 brass by Remington is available plus superb .260 cases from Lapua. Whereas CM brass is more limited. A factor always to be considered. This aside from the ballistic advantage, albeit slight, of the .260 over CM.
Gtscotty
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I had just finished typing a long, detailed reply last night when AVG decided it needed to restart my computer.... So I gave up and went to the garage to load some 6.5 CM for the match this weekend.
To answer your question, the X-Bolt is a great killing rifle, but probably wouldn't be my choice for a dedicated target rifle. My example it's usually good for about 0.8" 5 shot groups at 100 yds, and 3"-4" groups at 300 yds.... Benched. And that is the kicker, shooting from field positions such as slung, sitting or propped on a rock or tree is a vastly different proposition than sitting with a bipod on a bench, or even using a bipod prone (a position that the tall prarie grass rarely affords me). So given that none of the rifles mentioned thus far will be the limiting factor in your ability to shoot accurately from the most common field positions, I prefer one that is light weight, has good ergonomics and nice features ( 3 position safety, shorter bolt rotation, reliable box mag, etc.). In that context, rifles like the X-Bolt, Tikkas and many Winchesters seem about perfect to me. As for the range issue, all of my hunting rifles are a 300yd to 350yd max proposition for me, depending on conditions. That's the range I practice at and at which I am confident in my ability with those rifles, but that's a personal choice, and it's not my job to be anyone's thought police.
Edit: I forgot to mention that one of the things I like about my X-Bolt is that for such a light rifle, it is not heat sensitive. I've had several light hunting rifles that started to open up towards the end of a 5 shot group, but the Browning has never had that issue, and some of my better groups with it were shot as fast as I could rebuild my sight picture, position and breathing.
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