Scout Rifle... variations, concepts, projects... Your ideas.

[MyRoad]

There's been a lot of talk about scout rifles, ranging from the original "as defined" down to any rifle with a forward mounted scope being referred to as a Scout Rifle (like the new Ruger Frontier).

I think that the concept can evolve, or at least have variations. I follow the general idea of a scout rifle being a light weight, compact, larger caliber (ideally .308) rifle, with a bolt action, detachable magazine, forward mounted scope, and iron sights. My twist on it would be that I'd like to have "see through" scope mounts, so that I could use either the scope or the iron sights at any time.

So far, I haven't found a gun that I consider 80% there, that would need only minor alterations.

The guns I've played with are two I had on hand, an M44 and a Mini-14. Both fall short on several fronts, but have been fun to mess with, and the results are functional and useful, within their respective limitations.

I'd like to see pics of anyone else's ventures into Scout-Style rifles, hear about your experiences and what your perfect back woods gun ("scout" or not) would be.

 

[steelhead]

Copycat

 

[thereisnospoon]

Here ya go...


Don't have pics yet, but I recently scouted an Ishapore 2A1

 

[MyRoad]

Just curious if either of you have hunted with your 'scouts'?

I actually had a trigger job done to mine, brought it from about 9lbs. down to 5lbs., and made it crisper (not really "crisp", but crisper). There are other mods I could do to the M44, but it's inherent limitations have made me think to start over on another platform.

 

[steelhead]

2 mulies. Both were taken with some loads I rolled using Hornady 150gr SST's. 1 was DRT, the other I had to follow the trail.

 

[Clipper]

Life's too short to shoot ugly guns...

...And forward-scoped rifles are as ugly as Glock pistols...

 

[Brother in Arms]

I guess I have been living in a cave for most of my life but what is the actual intended purpose of the "scout rifle" I know that there is some debate as to what a scout rifle actually is.

I understand mounting a scope foward of the action to facilitate reloading with stripper clips but couldn't this also be achieved by a side mount scope like those found on the M1 garand? Or is there some benefit to having a long eye relief scope?

What is the goal of these rifles?

Thanks
Brother in Arms

 

[MyRoad]

I think that the primary benefit of the scope position is that with a low-powered scope it is very easy to keep both eyes open and target acquisition is faster. The scope is further away so it's not obstructing your general field of view, and with both eyes open and relaxed you have a better sense of your surroundings. Some people prefer that persepctive. It's also easier to access the port to load and to clean the gun. This months "Shooting Times" has a review of the Ruger Frontier, and the auther does a good job of describing the advantages, and then ends by pronouncing that once you get used to a scout rifle, "you'll never go back".

 

[AStone]

Just to provide a bit of background for MyRoad's interesting new thread...

There are several THR threads on the scout rifle concept. Here is a recent one.

(Note: I'm NOT suggesting that this one shouldn't be pursued. For me, threads run their course of evolution, and new ones on the same topic deserve to pop up now and again. I will follow this one with interest.)

The thread I linked above includes several links to good web pages on the scout rifle concept, including at least one page to info about the Steyr, and at least one (I think) to something by Jeff Cooper (who allegedly formalized the concept of "scout rifle". You'll find that the debate in that thread gets fairly testy at times; some are a bit more ... um, protective of the concept of "scout rifle" - insisting that it only applies to a very specific type of rifle that meet very specific criteria - where as others appear to be cool with specifying it more broadly. I expect to read similar debates in this thread over time although I hope this one doesn't get bogged down in endless debate about what is right. (IMO, we should be discussing here what works well for each individual, not necessarily debating whether this person or that person would want to call it a "scout".)

MyRoad and I, along with some others, started discussing this issue a bit in a thread that I started on the Ruger Frontier Rifle, which spilled out of one of MyRoad's other threads on short-barreled .308's.

OK, hope that provides some useful background so that we don't have to recover too much ground in this thread, but forge new ground.

Now, let the ideas roll.

Nem

 

[AStone]

From "The Steyr Scout Rifle Page" (again, to clarify, not stimulate debate about what is and is not a scout rifle):

A Few Words on the Scout Rifle Concept

Since one must take care with one's speech it is appropriate that we address the issue of just what a "scout rifle" really is.

By the definition of the Scout Rifle Conferences held under the auspices of Jeff Cooper the scout rifle has been defined as a general purpose rifle suitable for taking targets of up to 400 kg (880 pounds) at ranges to the limit of the shooters visibility (nominally 300 meters) that meets the following criteria:

Weight-sighted and slung: 3 kilograms (6.6 lb). This has been set as the ideal weight but the maximum has been stated as being 3.5 kg (7.7 pounds ).
Length: 1 meter (39 inches)
Nominal barrel length: .48 meter (19 inches)
Sighting system: Typically a forward and low mounted (ahead of the action opening) long eye relief telescope of between 2x and 3x. Reserve iron sights desirable but not necessary. Iron sights of the ghost ring type, without a scope, also qualify, as does a low powered conventional position scope.
Action: Magazine fed bolt action. Detachable box magazine and/or stripper clip charging is desirable but not necessary.
Sling: Fast loop-up type, i.e. Ching or CW style.
Caliber: Nominally .308 Winchester (7.62 x 51 mm). Calibers such as 7 mm - 08 Remington (7 x 51 mm) or .243 Winchester (6 x 51 mm) being considered for frail individuals or where "military" calibers are proscribed.
Built-in bipod: Desirable but not mandatory.
Accuracy: Should be capable of shooting into 2 minutes of angle or less (4") at 200 yards/meters (3 shot groups).

Rifles that do not meet all of these specifications are technically not "scout rifles." Thus rifles of this general design in calibers other than those stated above are not true scout rifles but actually "pseudo-scouts." However, even though Steyr Mannlicher (and now Savage) are making production rifles of this general type (as well as some wild variations) they are under no legal obligation not to call their deviations "scouts" as a marketing tool. Thus, the Steyr .376 Scout also known as (and probably better referred to as the ".376 Dragoon" although the factory dislikes the term) nor the .223 variation are true scout rifles. For that matter neither are the custom made scout-like rifles made up in .30-06, .375 H&H, or what ever caliber. However, there are many parts of the scout design that can be handily used on non-scout rifles.

 

[MyRoad]

I'm going to take one more stab at this, in an attempt to open it up a bit. I'm not sure what Mr. Cooper's situational intent was for this design, but I know what drew me to it. The idea is of a gun that is light, handy, powerful, accurate, reliable, sturdy, and simple (fewest moving parts). Something that you could have with you for weeks at a time, with maintenance, simplicity, and durability paramount.

The function would be as a thick-woods/brush gun, and alternately, as a sort of back-woods survival gun, capable of hunting and protection, bringing portability, reliability, and larger caliber to the forefront. I am aware that the classic "survival gun" is something like the the Henry .22, and while 2.5 lbs. has its advantages, the caliber falls short in the bigger picture.

So for me, a Scout Rifle is really more about its general characteristics and versatility, than it is about where the scope is mounted. It may be futile to shift the course of this thread, but I'll give it a shot anyway: I'm interested in any gun you would think optimal for a long back-packing effort where your survival (hunting and protection) might depend on it.

 

[jeepmor]

I'd go with whatever works for last comment

To skew off the scout concept a little and address the ease of use for a rifle that may be carried for days on end with little or no cleaning.

If in Alaska or the PNW in a wet fall or winter, I'd choose a format that I like in stainless with a synthetic or laminated stock. I'm just a sucker for the laminated stocks, it's personal preference and probably at the cost of some weight.

But a scout, in my newbie eyes, is simply a carbine or brush rifle with a sufficient caliber to get'r done. Where you put your scope is personal preference in my mind. There are pros and cons to both normal scope placement and the scope out there on the barrel away from the rifles action.

For packing a rifle for many days, I'd outfit it with one of those Butler Creek slings, that neoprene really does a nice job of spreading the weight of the gun on your shoulder. Particularly when you're somewhere that you might be jolting around a bit like in rocky terrain. Feeling that neoprene section stretch a little bit and reduce the impact on my shoulder has been the most noticeable difference in comfort for myself. It's like the sling has shocks on it, I will probably never purchase another leather sling due to this cushy suspension on the Butler Creek slings. Particularly on my .223 HB ruger for varminting. 10lbs is still 10lbs when hiking, but when jolting, that 10lbs does not spike up to uncomfortable levels with that neoprene stretch.

Beyond that, I know nothing of scout rifles, just comfort in transporting them.

jeepmor

 

[Magnum Wheel Man]

so just as an attempt to follow along... my custom 44 mag lever action Marlin, re-chambered in 50 A.E. with a 10 round tube magazine & with a Cabela's Alaskan Guide zero power extra long eye relief, extra wide field of view scope, & glass bedded wood might "qualify" as a scout rifle ??? it is very powerful, very light weight, highly accurate, & extremely durable & quick to point...

 

[JohnKSa]

Does Cooper advocate the forward mounted scope for any other reason than to allow rapid reloading of a box magazine from the top?

I was just musing over the picture of the semi-auto with a forward mounted scope and it made me wonder if we were forgetting the main reason for the forward mounted scope.

 

[SpookyPistolero]

I believe other main reasons were that it allowed one to maintain a full view of the landscape and that both eyes could be kept open during fire with less strain. These would also be the most important reasons to my mind. It allows for a sort of snap shooting.

 

[Dave R]

I believe other main reasons were that it allowed one to maintain a full view of the landscape and that both eyes could be kept open during fire with less strain. These would also be the most important reasons to my mind. It allows for a sort of snap shooting.

I recently hunted hog with a rifle with a scout scope on it, and I'm a believer. What he says is accurate.

Also, it seems to me like the scope field-of-view almosts acts like a ghost ring. The target seems to center itself in the field of view--which is where the crosshairs intersect. It seems mighty quick to get on target. And with both eyes open, its easier to pick up the target when its moving. Scout scope is a Good Thing.

The other scout rifle specs are all good, too. But the scout scope seems like the heart of the matter.

 

[Koobuh]

"Life is too short to shoot ugly guns...And forward-scoped rifles are as ugly as Glock pistols..."


I do believe we may need to have words, suh, on both accounts.

I'll be putting a 4x Simmons pistol scope on my sporterized (not by me) Remington Imperial-contract M91 mosin-nagant in the next few weeks. That rifle has already yielded very promising groups (MOA or better!) with plain old Wolf ammo.

One should never call a firearm that works as excellently as a scout mosin 'ugly'. Beauty in a tool is entirely in how well it accomplishes its set goal- visual aesthetics based on quaint notions of 'rustic beauty' should never be applied to tools.

Edit to say: If ever I hunt ungulates or other game in North America, that M91 will be the rifle I turn to.

Also, MyRoad, how hard was it to get the bayonet attachment off of your M44? And, how much work did you have to do on that ATI stock- any issues at all?

 

[MyRoad]

MyRoad, how hard was it to get the bayonet attachment off of your M44? And, how much work did you have to do on that ATI stock- any issues at all?

First, let me say that the M44 had already been altered (the bolt was cut and replaced), so the gun was not in, nor ever would be in original condition again. So being in otherwise excellent shape, for $85, it was a good platform to have some fun.

I read a description of sportorizing on SurplusRifle.com, and he said that supposedly you can remove the pins and front sight and bayonet lug should tap off rather easily. That was not his experience, he needed to knock them off with a cold chisel. Well, that didn't work for me either. I needed to cut mine off with a Sawzall and then grind what was left down. My first time trying to make a smooth grind on a round surface with a belt grinder... and then there were the pin holes to be filled (had a welder do that).

The ATI stock should be "fitted", in that some parts could be cut down (not sure how I would have gone about that?) to make it fit more evenly -- but I didn't go there. The barrel sort of wedges into the stock without any undo force, so I just dropped it in, tightened the screws, and went no further.

I put three rounds through at 100 yards on my last trip to the range, and got a 2" group, so as far as I'm concerned, it "works", and I'm done with it.

 

[Clipper]

Koobuh...

...I also had a sporterized Remington Mosin, which would shoot 3/4MOA, and I would never have desecrated that fine rifle with a 'scout' uglification! I like Jeff Cooper, but there are times when even he has a colossally bad idea, and this was one of them...

 

[Brother in Arms]

Thanks for shedding more light on the purpose of such a rifle. I have read various things about scout rifles here and there but I could never figure out what niche they where supposed to fill. I guess just that of a good all around rifle. I have never fired a scout rifle. I have handled the steyr scout and I was not impressed.

I think the mosin is a good platform as an all around rifle as they are very simple and reliable, though there safety is not particularly easy to operate. The short barreled versions also have a great deal of muzzle blast and flash. They do not posses the characteristics of a fine sporting rifle which is just why I like them.

I have a New england westinghouse that was unfortunately sporterized in the 1950's or 60's the barrel was shortened to about 20 inches and had a 1903 springfield sight added. The old arshin marked rear sight being left in place it was also fitted with a bishop sporting stock that was terribly glass bedded.

I plan on reworking this rifle by restocking it in a richards microfit laminate stock, I already crowned the barrel and did a trigger job as it had a terrible trigger pull. I would also like to add some sort of a rear apeture sight but I dont want to drill and tap the reciever.

Sorry to side track the thread I didnt mean to get so Mosin-sentric

To get back to the point, I think the CZ550 LUX .308 with detachable magazines would be a excellent scout rifle.

Brother in arms

 

[trstafford]

Scout as deep woods deer rifle

I have been giving much thought about building a Scout but I must be missing something the manufactures know. The sighting system is absouletely great for snap shooting or running shots at under 200 yards. But everyone wants to use callibers that start shining at 300-500 yards. I was thinking of using a CZ 527 carbine in 7.62x39. I think that this would be a nice 200yd deer rifle with 150gr bullets.

But I really think that Marlin missed their market when the introduced their bolt action several years ago. They have some of the best calibers for deer/elk/bear in deep woods in the .444 Marlin, 35 Remington, 45/70, 450 Marllin. and the .44 Mag would make a great gun where urban sprawl is becoming an issue because of the limited range if a shot is missed. But both .44 and 7.62x39 would be great for young shooters that need cheap ammo to practice.

I just can't understand why they want long range cartridges with a close range sighting system?

 

[MyRoad]

I just can't understand why they want long range cartridges with a close range sighting system?

I think that the inclusion of larger calibers is an attempt at getting this one gun to serve as wide a spectrum of uses as possible, and the larger caliber simply includes larger game within its potential.

There probably isn't one gun that could do everything well, but we seem to forever being asking ourselves and each other: "If you could only have one gun, what would it be?" I think part of the underlying goal for this gun, is to try and make a gun -- at least for those of us whose needs most likely would not include any 150+ yard shots -- that would be our "one gun".

 

[dfaugh]

Currently working on one that would qualify...A VZ-24 action, with the barrel shortened and recrowned (not sure how long yet, probably 20") rechambered for 8mm-06 AI. Have all the parts (action, barrel, stock and red dot scope) except the "scout mount" for the scope. Only have about $200 invested, so its kinda an experiment to see how it works out. May use it for a pig hunt at some point, we'll see how well it works out.

 

[rbernie]

I think part of the underlying goal for this gun, is to try and make a gun -- at least for those of us whose needs most likely would not include any 150+ yard shots -- that would be our "one gun".

In my experience, 150 yards is about max for the current crop of 'scout' scopes (2.5x Leupold or 2.75 Burris) when we're talking about hunting medium game.

I have three rifles with 'scout' style scope setups. I know from experience that I can only effectively use them on medium game inside of 150 yards (due to their limited range of magnification). That makes then a dandy solution for, say, seventy five percent of my hunting needs, but certainly not a 'one gun' solution.

To me, a one-gun hunting rifle solution is something along the lines of a 308 with a 21" or 22" barrel and topped with a 2x-7x conventional scope. Such a rifle is capable of being used in the brush as well as in the clear cuts. Conversely, a scout style rifle is (given the current state of the art in scout scopes) a specialized tool for specific environments.

 

[AStone]

To me, a one-gun hunting rifle solution is something along the lines of a 308 with a 21" or 22" barrel and topped with a 2x-7x conventional scope. Such a rifle is capable of being used in the brush as well as in the clear cuts. Conversely, a scout style rifle is (given the currnt state of the art in scout scopes) a specialized tool for specific environments.

rbernie, would you mind offering your thoughts on what those "specific environments" are?

Thanks,

Nem