Scout Rifle... variations, concepts, projects... Your ideas.

[rbernie]

what is the point of having a thread about scout rifles if we are not going to be talking about scout rifles ?

Actually, I believe the thread content was pretty consistent in talking about 'scout-style' rifles (and specifically about the pros and cons of forward mounted scopes) rather than 'Scout' rifle, so as to preclude the "Keepers Of The One True Scout Flame" from getting their panties in a wad over the strict and immovable definition of a 'Scout' rifle. That was probably the reason for the word 'variations' in the thread title.

I Googled this a while back, and found a decent compilation of the Scout concept as gleaned from Coopers' many writings. To keep "The Keepers Of The One True Scout Flame" happy, a 'Scout' rifle is (as defined by Col. Cooper):

• Weight-sighted and slung: 3 kilograms (6.6 lb). This has been set as the ideal weight but the maximum has been stated as being 3.5 kg (7.7 pounds ).
• Length: 1 meter (39 inches)
• Barrel length: .48 meter (19 inches)
• Sighting system: Forward and low mounted (ahead of the action opening) long eye relief telescope of between 2x and 3x. Reserve iron sights desirable but not necessary.
• Action: Magazine fed bolt action. Detachable box magazine and/or stripper clip charging is desirable but not necessary.
• Sling: Fast loop-up type, i.e. Ching or CW style.
• Caliber: Nominally .308 Winchester (7.62 x 51 mm) or 7 mm - 08 Winchester (7 x 51 mm), with .243 Winchester (6 x 51 mm) being considered for frail individuals or where "military" calibers are proscribed.
• Built-in bipod: Desirable but not mandatory.
• Accuracy: Should be capable of shooting into 2 minutes of angle or less at 200 yards/meters (3 shot groups).

My 'scout' rifles all fail the definition (but not the words used to derive the definition) in that they are not chambered in the prescribed calibers, two are lever-action instead of bolt, and none have an exact 19" barrel. (However, from my readings of Cooper, he did not consider a levergun to be an absolute abomination of *his* scout definition.) Machs nichts to me one way or another because the stated GOAL of having a handy magazine-fed rifle capable of a rapid rate of fire in a significant caliber has been met by my Marlins and Ishy 2A.

That is interesting that Cooper doesn't consider the scope to be mandatory

Best I can tell, he DID think the scope necessary - the backup irons were optional.

 

[AStone]

...so as to preclude the "Keepers Of The One True Scout Flame"
from getting their panties in a wad over the strict
and immovable definition of a 'Scout' rifle.

LOL.

LOL, again.

One more time: LOL.

 

[Don't Tread On Me]

I'm not trying to hijack this thread, but I've been wondering something.

I totally understand the definition of what makes for a scout rifle, but I don't know exactly what is meant by "scout". I kinda-sorta understand what scouting is..but it seems that people's definitions vary wildly.

Right now, and for a long time, I've kinda considered this rifle concept to be useless. But Jeff Cooper is a God in the firearm world, so I can't be ignorant and judge something without knowing everything first, especially when the creator of this concept has a lot of knowledge and experience.

Rather than what the rifle is made up of. What would you use it for? HOW would you use it? Can anyone describe a scenario where it would be used, and how it would be used? Why is it better than some other rifle in that role? Does it have a main role? Is this meant to have some sort of military application? Self defense? Is this for hunting only? All of the above?


There have been a lot of criticisms over this rifle concept in older threads. It would make more sense to judge the rifle on its suitability for a specific task/role, rather than on personal preferences.

 

[AStone]

What would you use it for? HOW would you use it? Can anyone describe a scenario where it would be used, and how it would be used?

For what would I use it?

A utility rifle. Like a SAK, only shoots bullets.

Defends. Gets game (at <100m). Carries well. Light. Nice balance.

Other stuf, too, but you get the picture.

How would I use it?

Real fast. Off the left shoulder,
raised to aim from an 'African barrel-down carry' sling position.

Game or self defense,
which ever applies.
(Preferably the former.)

Why is it better than some other rifle in that role?

Fast target acquisition - especially for closer, moving targets in thicker brush -
as compared to, say, a 22" barrel with a 7X scope.

Does it have a main role? Is this meant to have some sort of military application? Self defense? Is this for hunting only? All of the above?

All of the above.

The scout rifle at the top of my wish list.

I'll take one in 7mm08 or .308, please.

 

[444]

"What would you use it for? HOW would you use it? Can anyone describe a scenario where it would be used, and how it would be used? Why is it better than some other rifle in that role? Does it have a main role? Is this meant to have some sort of military application? Self defense? Is this for hunting only? All of the above?"

I answered this question in most, if not all of the posts I made on this thread.

 

[Stiletto Null]

What would you use it for? HOW would you use it? Can anyone describe a scenario where it would be used, and how it would be used?

1. Plinking, mostly. I like to shoot at 100yd (I'd like to move out to 200, too), and while I do OK (I've gotten groups as small as 2" at that distance, using irons), I'd like a better sight picture.

2. SHTF, my scout rifle will be my go-to gun. At close range, you can use a (scout) scope like one of the old-fashioned one-eye-blocked reflex sights. At longer ranges, well, a scope's nice for boosting precision. Main advantage: being able to see the target AND sight picture clearly.

Right now, I'm torn between scouting out an SKS (with a red dot), or scouting out my M39 or K31 (with a Leupold 2.5x28 Scout).

 

[ctdonath]

I don't know exactly what is meant by "scout"

The idea is someone who is going into the field for a prolonged period, and needs a convenient rifle to harvest game and defend himself, with maybe some occasional offensive action. He may be simply backpacking for a couple weeks, doing some serious big-game hunting, lives way out in the boonies, or is sneaking around gathering intel in a war. He's someone who anticipates needing a gun, but can't say for exactly what purpose, and does not have the luxury of multiple guns to choose from for whatever task arises.

My use would be the "if I could only have one gun" type scenario, where having a gun suitable for whatever comes is more important than having the optimal tool for a particular application - sort of the ultimate SHTF gun. If I have to grab one gun and go, with no immediate prospects of swapping or reloading, it's the Steyr Scout.

Partly as an experiment, I took a Steyr Scout to a long-range rifle course (Storm Mountain's LRR1&2). Scoffed at by the staff at first for its light weight and pencil-thin short barrel, it held its own very nicely up against "real" sniper rifles, having only been modifed with a 10x (working up to 1000m precision shots) mil-dot (for range estimation) scope rear-mounted (you don't forward-mount a 10x) on 20MOA-sloped (to compensate for extreme elevation adjustments accentuated by the lower velocity) rings. It wasn't ideal, but it did the job admirably (to the surprise of the instructors).

It would make more sense to judge the rifle on its suitability for a specific task/role

"Specific" is exactly the wrong word. The design is very deliberately geared toward general purpose use (go read up on its history in To Ride, Shoot Straight, And Speak The Truth by Cooper). For any specific use, you WILL find something else better ... but that something else will be significantly less useful for other tasks. Again, it's a "jack of all trades, master of none."

, rather than on personal preferences.

Even that is generalized. It's the kind of gun that you can hand to pretty much anyone, and they can easily apply it to pretty much whatever task. No, it may not satisfy personal preferences of length or caliber or range or mechanism or speed or aesthetics - but it will do well within margins of necessity.

 

[s&w 24]

The scout rifle's "scout" name comes from the post WW I definition of an infantry scout, operating alone or as a pair in and near enemy territory as an observer/sniper. Col. Cooper always liked the idea of a slr scout but they have always come out too heavy to meet specs and as Col. Cooper and the scout consept aged it changed to a military/hunting gun to a mostly hunting rifle.

 

[PAC 762]

This is the pseudo-scout I just built. I still need to bed the action and add a rear sight, but wanted to slap it together to see how it shots. It started life as a 1942 dated K. Kale Turk M38. I chopped the barrel to 19" and recrowned. I replaced the original front sight and added an ashley outdoors mount (wasted too much time and money trying to make my own). I cut the original stock down and removed some wood to lighten it. Routed out the inside to float the barrel and fit the Timney trigger it place of the original (Huge improvement). Refinished the stock with truck bed liner and the metal with dark park allumihyde 2. I made my own ching slig out of a pair of cheap leather slings I got on a closeout sale. The pics didn't come out great, but it looks decent in-person and handles well. It meets all of cooper's basic criteria with the exception of being about a pound or two over weight.

 

[Stiletto Null]

Nothing wrong with a heavy-ish barrel, IMO. Sporter barrels look like they'll bend if I look at them funny.